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Old 02-11-2008, 05:19 AM    (permalink
someone447
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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Errmmm...it was pretty bad. Especially in 88. If it wasn't for those players around him, he may have not had his "good days" when he had the chance to shine.

As for Montana, I really don't care where you rank him, I just disagreed with your initial statement.
I was talking about when Young took over for Montana in '91. When he actually started games, not when he averaged less than 10 passes a game.
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Old 02-11-2008, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I was talking about when Young took over for Montana in '91. When he actually started games, not when he averaged less than 10 passes a game.
Your argument for Montana not being the best of all-time is that Steve Young....another one of the best QB's of all time......also did well with the same team....

Brilliant!

I could understand if it was Trent Dilfer coming in...but this is Steve freakin Young....
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MasterShake View Post
Your argument for Montana not being the best of all-time is that Steve Young....another one of the best QB's of all time......also did well with the same team....

Brilliant!

I could understand if it was Trent Dilfer coming in...but this is Steve freakin Young....
I am arguing that both of them are overrated.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Johnny Unitas #6?

Bbbbbbbuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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To have Brady at 5 over the likes of Steve Young and company is an insult...Johnny U...I think they were just assuming a win for him on Superbowl Sunday...which he didn't get. And where's Bradshaw? This list is bogus.
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Johnny Unitas #6?

Bbbbbbbuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuulllllllllllllllllllshit.
LMAO..........but i do agree with you there. That list is retarted anyway....Where is Marino.....
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Old 02-11-2008, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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To have Brady at 5 over the likes of Steve Young and company is an insult...Johnny U...I think they were just assuming a win for him on Superbowl Sunday...which he didn't get. And where's Bradshaw? This list is bogus.
Bradshaw doesn't deserve to be anywhere near a top 10 list. I would think about putting him in the top 20. He rode his defense to championships.
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I was talking about when Young took over for Montana in '91. When he actually started games, not when he averaged less than 10 passes a game.
Um, Young did actually start games before the 1991 season. He started several in 1988. And he was not that fun to watch.

Anyways, even if you start from that 1991 season onward, he had been in the system for four years, starting a handful of games, and he has a lot of help around him for the rest of his career. More than Montana had in his first several. It's not surprising that Young had a good career and experienced a lot of the same success. I just don't see the "Montana and Young are overrated" point you're trying to make.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 02-11-2008, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Favre's career > Manning's/Brady's (right now)

It probably won't finish that way, but us Packer fans would like to enjoy it for a few years, thx.

and Starr is not GOAT
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Old 02-11-2008, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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How and why does Steve Young make this list over Marino and Elway? In terms of a career his is not more impressive then either of the two.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Slinggin sammy babby
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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What I like about this list is the respect it pays to the oldtimers. The other thing is that if you add in the honorable mentions its a pretty good list of the top 15 or top 20. What Im at a loss at is how they came up with that order. Bart Starr is top 20 but number one overall? I dont know what standards you use when you come up with that one. Just from his era I dont know how he's better than Unitas.
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Old 02-11-2008, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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How and why does Steve Young make this list over Marino and Elway? In terms of a career his is not more impressive then either of the two.
Why do you think this?
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 02-11-2008, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Um, Young did actually start games before the 1991 season. He started several in 1988. And he was not that fun to watch.

Anyways, even if you start from that 1991 season onward, he had been in the system for four years, starting a handful of games, and he has a lot of help around him for the rest of his career. More than Montana had in his first several. It's not surprising that Young had a good career and experienced a lot of the same success. I just don't see the "Montana and Young are overrated" point you're trying to make.
http://www.pro-football-reference.co...St00.htm?redir

1987 3 games started
1988 3 games started
1989 3 games started

I mean a significant number of games started.
Hell in 1987 he threw 10 td and 0 ints.
1988 3 and 3 not good, but not terrible considering he only threw 101 passes
1989 8 TDs 3 ints throwing 92 passes.

I don't think either of them are significantly overrated. But I put Montana at 5-6 instead 1-2, and young at 12-15 instead of top 10. The people I put ahead of both of them all have legitimate arguments for it.

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Why do you think this?
Steve Young was a backup for 6 of his 14 years. He only played full seasons 3 years(92-94) I'm sorry, but his career wasn't long enough to put him in the top 10.
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Old 02-11-2008, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Can Manning create something out of nothing like Favre and Elway?

I think Manning will be the GOAT when all is said and done, he just isn't there yet.
I think you can and should throw Brady in there. He has definately made something with nothing.
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Old 02-11-2008, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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http://www.pro-football-reference.co...St00.htm?redir

1987 3 games started
1988 3 games started
1989 3 games started

I mean a significant number of games started.
Hell in 1987 he threw 10 td and 0 ints.
1988 3 and 3 not good, but not terrible considering he only threw 101 passes
1989 8 TDs 3 ints throwing 92 passes.

I don't think either of them are significantly overrated. But I put Montana at 5-6 instead 1-2, and young at 12-15 instead of top 10. The people I put ahead of both of them all have legitimate arguments for it.



Steve Young was a backup for 6 of his 14 years. He only played full seasons 3 years(92-94) I'm sorry, but his career wasn't long enough to put him in the top 10.
Statistics don't tell the entire story. If you saw Steve Young play, then you would understand.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 02-11-2008, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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my top 10 in no order

Montana, Favre, Elway, Marino, Unitas, Staubach, Starr, Manning, Baugh, Brady
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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I think you can and should throw Brady in there. He has definately made something with nothing.
Not really. His receivers were no worse than Favre's were during the prime of his career. Yet Favre always had better stats. The one year Favre had a dominant defense, they won the Super Bowl. I think Brady will easily end up top 10, possibly even top 5. If he has a couple years anywhere near close to this year, he may even end up number 1.

Brady has never wowed me watching him play like Favre, Elway, and Manning have.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Statistics don't tell the entire story. If you saw Steve Young play, then you would understand.
Three games is not enough to establish a rapport with an offense. He threw 100 passes. He didn't even average 10 passes a game when he played. You can't judge a QB that comes in cold. Of course he isn't going to look too good.

You seem to be making my argument for me. Montana benefited greatly from the system and the players. Once Young was able to establish a rapport and learn the system, he did as good, or better than Montana.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Three games is not enough to establish a rapport with an offense. He threw 100 passes. He didn't even average 10 passes a game when he played. You can't judge a QB that comes in cold. Of course he isn't going to look too good.

You seem to be making my argument for me. Montana benefited greatly from the system and the players. Once Young was able to establish a rapport and learn the system, he did as good, or better than Montana.
Better than Montana. In terms of stats? Yes. But not in terms of making the decisions. Especially in the playoffs. There's quite a difference. Montana had a sixth sense. Young didn't. You can't just insert a player into a system and have them do good. No matter how much talent is around them.

I also don't see what's wrong with players doing good in a certain system. That's what football is about. Putting players in situations where they have the best chance to succeed. Elway for example didn't look that great until he had a lot more help around him.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 02-11-2008, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Steve Young was a backup for 6 of his 14 years. He only played full seasons 3 years(92-94) I'm sorry, but his career wasn't long enough to put him in the top 10.
Your reasoning for not playing an entire season after the 1994 season is kind of amusing to me. He started 15 games in 1997 and 1998. He missed one game in both seasons due to injury or just resting for the playoffs. Honestly, he played for eight solid years. That's still quite a while. He played enough games to be considered one of the best quarterbacks of his era and carried the 49ers for years. They would not have had the same success without him.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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Not really. His receivers were no worse than Favre's were during the prime of his career. Yet Favre always had better stats. The one year Favre had a dominant defense, they won the Super Bowl. I think Brady will easily end up top 10, possibly even top 5. If he has a couple years anywhere near close to this year, he may even end up number 1.

Brady has never wowed me watching him play like Favre, Elway, and Manning have.
In 2002, Brady led the league in TD passes. He had the likes of David Givens, Deion Branch who were both rookies. Troy Brown and David Patten also. Along with JR Redmond and Antowain Smith in the backfield. I dont think Favre ever had that little talent around him when he led the leagu in TD passes.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Your reasoning for not playing an entire season after the 1994 season is kind of amusing to me. He started 15 games in 1997 and 1998. He missed one game in both seasons due to injury or just resting for the playoffs. Honestly, he played for eight solid years. That's still quite a while. He played enough games to be considered one of the best quarterbacks of his era and carried the 49ers for years. They would not have had the same success without him.
You seem to think that I am bashing Young. I have him in my top 15. I just don't think an 8 year career is long enough to be in the top 10.

Granted, being a Packer fan I am kind of spoiled considering Favre hasn't missed a game in 16 years, but I find playing completely seasons to be very important.

About your other post, again, I am not bashing Montana or Young. They are both great QBs. Montana could easily be a top 5 in my rankings. I just have Baugh slightly higher, but they are really interchangeable.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by someone447 View Post
You seem to think that I am bashing Young. I have him in my top 15. I just don't think an 8 year career is long enough to be in the top 10.

Granted, being a Packer fan I am kind of spoiled considering Favre hasn't missed a game in 16 years, but I find playing completely seasons to be very important.

About your other post, again, I am not bashing Montana or Young. They are both great QBs. Montana could easily be a top 5 in my rankings. I just have Baugh slightly higher, but they are really interchangeable.
Like I said, I don't care about your rankings. I just think your understanding of how their careers were successful is a little misunderstood.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 02-11-2008, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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In 2002, Brady led the league in TD passes. He had the likes of David Givens, Deion Branch who were both rookies. Troy Brown and David Patten also. Along with JR Redmond and Antowain Smith in the backfield. I dont think Favre ever had that little talent around him when he led the leagu in TD passes.
1995 Robert Brooks, Mark Ingram, Anthony Morgan, Mark Chmura(Antonio Freeman had 8 catches, he was a return man that year) It sure didn't help for Edgar Bennet to average 3.4 yards a carry. The Pats RBs averaged over 4 YPC.

I would take the 02 Patriots supporting cast over the 95 Packers. Plus Tom Brady had 28 TDs, Favre had 38.

Brady's supporting cast was equal to Favre's during his prime. This year Brady's supporting cast was head and shoulders above anything Favre ever had.
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