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Old 02-17-2008, 02:19 PM    (permalink
Rich Jr
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Faneca might come home to Louisiana. I hope he does. Anyway, I think Samuels is overrated and I hope Trufant signs with us.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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Faneca might come home to Louisiana. I hope he does. Anyway, I think Samuels is overrated and I hope Trufant signs with us.
Do you think the Saints will re-sign Jeff Faine? You'd think they would have to, but he's a player that nobody is talking about.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Well a couple of things. I think simply saying "so and so has better numbers and therefore is better" is probably the most intellectually lazy argument that one can make. Yes production is important, but receiver is one of the hardest positions to gauge numbers-wise because it's all contextual. Particularly when you're talking about talent.

You already mentioned the quarterback issue, which I think is much bigger than you are giving credit to. Another issue is offensive scheme. One reason why Roddy White's numbers went up significantly (presumably, I'm not a huge Falcons fan) is the shift from Knapp's run-oriented ZBS to Bobby Petrino's more pass-oriented offense. Getting a quarterback that uses receivers and throws catchable balls helps too. Losing Michael Vick was probably the best thing to happen to White. Even if it meant Joey Ballgame.

The Bears are a running team, with a terrible quarterback situation, who play at least 3-4 games per year in awful weather conditions. We're never going to have a receiver with elite numbers. The closest was Marty Booker, and that's because we did a lot more dinking and dunking then.

Which brings me to my other point. If you want to look at stats, I'll take YPC over any other one (particularly if you're talking about talent and not prodution, which I think you also missed in my post). You can't tell much of anything by how many catches a player has, other than they were thrown to a lot. Berrian's YPC dipped a bit last year, in large part because we saw so much of Griese and Orton at quarterback, but in a good season can easily give 15.5-16.0 yards per catch. That's why I think T.O is the best receiver in the last 10 years. He can basically do it all.

There are receivers that can give you big gains without blazing speed. Plax is one of them. In part because he doesn't need to burn people, just throw them around (which is part of the reason why he sucks when he's unmotivated). I happen to think Plax is one of the best receivers in the league when motivated. The problem is that he can be a whiney *****.

Anyway, like I said, this is a discussion on talent, not production. And to answer your question, no I would most absolutely not give 20 million in bonuses to Anquan Boldin. Boldin is essentially Colsten version 2.0. Fitz yes. Brandon Marshall I would wait another year or two but am a big fan of. Plax not anymore because he's getting a bit older and I don't trust giving huge amounts of money to divas (with the exception of maybe T.O).


Elite was a bit strong (as I usually include that to be top 5 or so). But I woud take Berrian over Colston or Boldin without blinking.

My top 5 would proably be something to the tune of:

1) Chad Johnson
2) T.O.
3) Randy Moss
4) Braylon Edwards
5) Fitz

I think Berrian is top 20 though.
You lost me with the last statement about taking Berrian over Colston or Boldin. Colston..I disagree with, but I think that can be a toss up considering the QB situation etc. this one is definitely just preference. Boldin..no way. I think at a certain point you have to look at production to judge a player, and Boldin did more in 12 games than Berrian did all year...and as for YPC, career total wise, Berrian is 14.6 and Boldin is 13.2 I don't know how to judge this really, but to me that looks like a small difference (I think I'm wrong though...). Whatever it may be, I can't imagine taking Berrian over Boldin, especially considering Boldin doesn't exactly have a "great" QB throwing to him and a top 5 WR to fight for production with.

However, I agree with every other thing you said...yes I'd consider Berrian top 20...no I wouldn't give the "elite" label to someone who's simply top 20.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't trade Colston or Boldin for Berrian. You might be the only one.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Well a couple of things. I think simply saying "so and so has better numbers and therefore is better" is probably the most intellectually lazy argument that one can make. Yes production is important, but receiver is one of the hardest positions to gauge numbers-wise because it's all contextual. Particularly when you're talking about talent.

You already mentioned the quarterback issue, which I think is much bigger than you are giving credit to. Another issue is offensive scheme. One reason why Roddy White's numbers went up significantly (presumably, I'm not a huge Falcons fan) is the shift from Knapp's run-oriented ZBS to Bobby Petrino's more pass-oriented offense. Getting a quarterback that uses receivers and throws catchable balls helps too. Losing Michael Vick was probably the best thing to happen to White. Even if it meant Joey Ballgame.

The Bears are a running team, with a terrible quarterback situation, who play at least 3-4 games per year in awful weather conditions. We're never going to have a receiver with elite numbers. The closest was Marty Booker, and that's because we did a lot more dinking and dunking then.

Which brings me to my other point. If you want to look at stats, I'll take YPC over any other one (particularly if you're talking about talent and not prodution, which I think you also missed in my post). You can't tell much of anything by how many catches a player has, other than they were thrown to a lot. Berrian's YPC dipped a bit last year, in large part because we saw so much of Griese and Orton at quarterback, but in a good season can easily give 15.5-16.0 yards per catch. That's why I think T.O is the best receiver in the last 10 years. He can basically do it all.

There are receivers that can give you big gains without blazing speed. Plax is one of them. In part because he doesn't need to burn people, just throw them around (which is part of the reason why he sucks when he's unmotivated). I happen to think Plax is one of the best receivers in the league when motivated. The problem is that he can be a whiney *****.

Anyway, like I said, this is a discussion on talent, not production. And to answer your question, no I would most absolutely not give 20 million in bonuses to Anquan Boldin. Boldin is essentially Colsten version 2.0. Fitz yes. Brandon Marshall I would wait another year or two but am a big fan of. Plax not anymore because he's getting a bit older and I don't trust giving huge amounts of money to divas (with the exception of maybe T.O).


Elite was a bit strong (as I usually include that to be top 5 or so). But I woud take Berrian over Colston or Boldin without blinking.

My top 5 would proably be something to the tune of:

1) Chad Johnson
2) T.O.
3) Randy Moss
4) Braylon Edwards
5) Fitz

I think Berrian is top 20 though.
WOW. Im in shock. How the heck can you say youd take Berrian over Colston or Boldin. Are you nuts? Damn. I could probably name 20 guys Id take over Berrian. Easily.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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Do you think the Saints will re-sign Jeff Faine? You'd think they would have to, but he's a player that nobody is talking about.
Yeah, I think they resign Faine and Goodwin.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't trade Colston for Berrian. You might be the only one.
I may be. Wouldn't be the first time. I would just emphasize that this has very little to do with the fact that I'm a Bears fan, other than I've seen a lot of Berrian.

If Berrian goes to the Niners or Oakland, or whoever, I'll continue to sing his praises (as opposed to most fans that trash players who leave and act like they were never that important). I prefer people that can produce big plays every time the ball comes there way.

To give a few non-Bears examples, I think what Joey Galloway has done in Tampa the last few years at his age is probably the most underrated thing in the NFL. I also was in love with Santonio Holmes coming out of college (as some old timers may remember) and was devastated that Pittsburgh traded up one spot ahead of us and stole him.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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In no order, guys Id take over Berrian.

T.O, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Lee Evans, Marques Colston, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Laverneus Coles, Derrick Mason, Hines Ward, Braylon Edwards, Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Marshall, Chad Johnson, TJ Housmanzadah, Torrry Holt, Steve Smith and Roy Williams. Easily, could've named many others.

Berrian is not close to top 20 talent in his league.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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i wouldnt take Bowe, Mason, Coles, Marshall (maybe) Welker over Berrian at all.
Welker is the best slot guy, but we r taking about #1/#2 guys.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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definetly marshall over berrian the dude is a beast
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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Roddy White is at least as good as Colston.
Not even close. I can't comprehend that entire post. If Colston doesn't get hurt his rookie year he leds the league in catches. And he got snubbed from the pro bowl this year.

BTW Colston is our only reliable WR and he's getting a fat contract this year. We ain't trading him.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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definetly marshall over berrian the dude is a beast
And Berrian isnt?
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Yea I love Berrian, but he is nowhere near the level of Boldin and Colston, not even close...Colston is underrated as hell, and Boldin is one of the best wrs in the league, his numbers speak for themselvs...Runs some of the best routes in this league and will overpower you running after the catch.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Do you think the Saints will re-sign Jeff Faine? You'd think they would have to, but he's a player that nobody is talking about.
Faine is tricky, I hope we do but when he was out Jonathan Goodwin came in and didn't miss a beat. He was actually part of our 4 game win streak and some wanted to keep Faine out.. But we have Jamar Nesbit who can play every line position. We also drafted Andy Alleman and he can play G and C so Faine is expendable but he's got great chemistry with the rest of the line and I hope we do resign him but I won't be surprised if we don't.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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In no order, guys Id take over Berrian.

T.O, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Lee Evans, Marques Colston, Fitzgerald, Boldin, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Laverneus Coles, Derrick Mason, Hines Ward, Braylon Edwards, Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Marshall, Chad Johnson, TJ Housmanzadah, Torrry Holt, Steve Smith and Roy Williams. Easily, could've named many others.

Berrian is not close to top 20 talent in his league.
Well there ya have it. Billingsly knows all.


By the way, 2002 called to tell you that Laverneus Coles and Derrick Mason aren't worth a poop anymore.


EDIT: Haha...how did I miss Wes Welker? That's epic. Let's just list every player that has more catches than Berrian without thinking of context at all.
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Old 02-17-2008, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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I'd still love Berrian on the Saints though..
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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And Berrian isnt?
not a bigger beast than marshall and b still has to prove himself
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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I'd still love Berrian on the Saints though..
Berrian and Meachem on the outside, Colston everywhere. Reggie, PT and The Deuce in the backfield. We just need a TE.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Berrian and Meachem on the outside, Colston everywhere. Reggie, PT and The Deuce in the backfield. We just need a TE.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Berrian and Meachem on the outside, Colston everywhere. Reggie, PT and The Deuce in the backfield. We just need a TE.
Billy Miller came up HUGE this yer for us when Eric Johnson didn't.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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not a bigger beast than marshall and b still has to prove himself
and Marshall doesnt? I mean i can see why u would take him over berrian, but Marshall didnt prove more than Berrian did
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SaintsMan View Post
Berrian and Meachem on the outside, Colston everywhere. Reggie, PT and The Deuce in the backfield. We just need a TE.
[Sarcasm] Jeremy Shockey! Because he's definitely going to get traded, which everyone else seems to think [/Sarcasm]
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 703SKINS202 View Post
not a bigger beast than marshall and b still has to prove himself
But Brandon Marshall, who has had one good year, does not? Me thinks you doth protest too much.
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rich Jr View Post
Billy Miller came up HUGE this yer for us when Eric Johnson didn't.
I like Billy Miller, I just wish he could block better. I wouldn't mind looking at Crumpler like saintsfan912 said
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Old 02-17-2008, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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well if youre gonna say berrian is potentially elite and has arrived then marshall is definetly elite
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