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Old 02-18-2008, 03:07 PM    (permalink
Jay
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Yet you can sit there and claim there was no fire in Michael Jordan's case when there was PLENTY of smoke. And I have a huge problem with the term "cheated." I agree that they broke an NFL rule. No doubt about it. There is absolutely ZERO proof that the Patriots used any of the video taped signals inside of that same game. ZERO. As a matter of fact, there is more proof that Jordan might have bet on basketball then there is that the Patriots used any of their video work in game.

Yet it's OK for you to call them cheaters and assume they did use the tapes in game because of some stupid cliche. But suggest Jordan bet on basketball and ooooh no, don't go there!

It's all a hypocrisy. A pretty funny one too. And by admitting you hate Bill Belichick, you're proving that you are just looking for every reason to talk **** as much as I am looking for every reason to defend him. We can go in circles alld ay if that's what you want.
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Yet you can sit there and claim there was no fire in Michael Jordan's case when there was PLENTY of smoke. And I have a huge problem with the term "cheated." I agree that they broke an NFL rule. No doubt about it. There is absolutely ZERO proof that the Patriots used any of the video taped signals inside of that same game. ZERO. As a matter of fact, there is more proof that Jordan might have bet on basketball then there is that the Patriots used any of their video work in game.

Yet it's OK for you to call them cheaters and assume they did use the tapes in game because of some stupid cliche. But suggest Jordan bet on basketball and ooooh no, don't go there!

It's all a hypocrisy. A pretty funny one too. And by admitting you hate Bill Belichick, you're proving that you are just looking for every reason to talk **** as much as I am looking for every reason to defend him. We can go in circles alld ay if that's what you want.
did michael jordan's betting give his team an unfair advantage?
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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I don't know, did Pete Rose's betting give his team an unfair advantage?

Oh and... the man you are all pinning your hopes and dreams on... :

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MAYBE THE MEDIA SHOULD EYEBALL WALSH

Though we're edging ever closer to becoming part of the "real" media, we're still a long way away from having the kind of time and resources that would allow us to engage in a comprehensive investigation of a key figure in one of the various stories about which we often tend to blather.

If, for example, we had the time and/or the resources, we'd devote a chunk of it to finding out more about Matt Walsh.

Precious little has been done by the media to find out more about him, or to get a general feel for whether he generally can be believed. From our perspective, we think that what he says (and how he says it) about Spygate II will say much about whether he is credible. Until he talks, however, there's work that can be done to get a better idea of who he is and what he's about.

For starters, the contention that Walsh secretly recorded conversations with Pats V.P. of player personnel Scott Pioli is great way to get a good feel for whether Walsh is a truth-teller. Walsh's lawyer calls the rare public utterance from Pioli a "complete fabrication." So if the Pats and/or Pioli can prove that it happened, the failure of Walsh to tell the truth to his lawyer on that topic would be relevant in connection with an assessment of whether he's telling the truth about what he might eventually tell Senator Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) or anyone else.

Other easily available information to scrutinize is Walsh's bio for his current job. In it, he says that he "served primarily as an Area Scout and Video Assistant from 1996-2003" with the Patriots. But Pioli told the Boston Globe that Walsh was never an Area Scout. So if the Pats and/or Pioli can prove this, it would be another strike against him.

In fact, Walsh's overall bio requires the full-blown Fran Foley treatment. Based on the article regarding his then-looming nuptials, he was 28 in July 2004 and is a Gemini. Thus, he's presently 31. Unless he pulled a Doogie Howser (or a Forrest Gump), it's hard to cram everything he claims to have done into the period of time that would require him to get a college degree, play two years of pro hockey, train with the U.S. National Bobsled team, spend a year working for an Arena League team, seven with the Pats, one with NFL Europe, and then become an assistant golf pro in Hawaii.

The article about his wedding describes his time with the Pats as including "operations, public relations, video/game planning, area scout." Game planning? Um. Okay.

Other questions about Walsh should be asked. Such as, for example, how he found -- and how he can afford -- a Washington, D.C. lawyer who specializes in white-collar crime and government investigations. Could it be that Senator Specter hooked Walsh up with Michael Levy, and/or that Levy is handling the matter at no charge as a "favor" to the Senator?

So while we're uncomfortable with the notion that NFL Security is looking up on the guy, we think that the media has an obligation to do so, especially if the media (us included) is going to continue to write about the inflammatory things that Walsh supposedly knows.
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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I don't know, did Pete Rose's betting give his team an unfair advantage?

Oh and... the man you are all pinning your hopes and dreams on... :
I honestly have no idea, because he also coached his team. But i would venture a guess no.

But you brought up this MJ betting argument, and thats not cheating. Thats just stupidity.

and a reply to the top post:

why in the hell would they tape teams, but not try to get an advantage out of it? That train of thought doesn't make any sense.
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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They try to get an advantage out of EVERYTHING. Every team does. Every team watchs all types of film. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Bill Belichick operates inside every possible grey area possible and would take unflushed stool samples out of hotel shitters if it meant he could figure out something for a game plan. And I don't think it is completely ridiculous to think any or every other team does the same thing. And other teams have been caught breaking NFL rules. Some pretty major ones like salary cap and tampering, etc.

Jordan had the ball in his hands more than any other Chicago Bull. Of course he could effect games. That one is a no brainer. I'm not saying he did or didn't, but you know, where there's smoke, there's fire, so by NFLDraftcountdown.com bylaw 36.4 article 6 section 8 amendment 2c, we are therefor to assume he did...
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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I honestly have no idea, because he also coached his team. But i would venture a guess no.

But you brought up this MJ betting argument, and thats not cheating. Thats just stupidity.

and a reply to the top post:

why in the hell would they tape teams, but not try to get an advantage out of it? That train of thought doesn't make any sense.
First off, Pete Rose has said that he bet his team to win every time, which theoretically would not change the outcome of the game, in most cases.

Second, it has been said before that the patriots tape defenses of other teams to keep a record of what tendencies those teams have as far as play calling. Nobody has proven that the patriots have taped signals and used them in games.

As far as the Walsh tapes, nodoby can prove (other than BB) that the Patriots actually ordered and used the tapes from the Rams walkthrough. It boils down to Walsh's word against BB's word, no proof anywhere. Also, he could be bringing this up now just to make money and remain out of trouble. Why not bring it up after the 2nd superbowl, or the 3rd which was equally as hyped as this past superbowl?
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Old 02-18-2008, 06:37 PM    (permalink
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I don't know, did Pete Rose's betting give his team an unfair advantage?

Oh and... the man you are all pinning your hopes and dreams on... :
I don't think Pete Rose should be barred from the HOF, and if it does turn out BB cheated, I don't think he should be barred from the NFL either. What Pete Rose did was not cheating, he always bet on his team. Yes, it probably did affect the games. If he bet on the game, he would be more likely to pitch his closer or top reliever, but I digress.


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The article about his wedding describes his time with the Pats as including "operations, public relations, video/game planning, area scout." Game planning? Um. Okay.
If he broke down film, he helped with the game planning...

If you really believe that BB didn't use the spygate film in games, I have some land to sell you...
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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They try to get an advantage out of EVERYTHING. Every team does. Every team watchs all types of film. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Bill Belichick operates inside every possible grey area possible and would take unflushed stool samples out of hotel shitters if it meant he could figure out something for a game plan. And I don't think it is completely ridiculous to think any or every other team does the same thing. And other teams have been caught breaking NFL rules. Some pretty major ones like salary cap and tampering, etc.

Jordan had the ball in his hands more than any other Chicago Bull. Of course he could effect games. That one is a no brainer. I'm not saying he did or didn't, but you know, where there's smoke, there's fire, so by NFLDraftcountdown.com bylaw 36.4 article 6 section 8 amendment 2c, we are therefor to assume he did...
If he's trying to gain an advantage out of everything, why do you believe that he wouldn't use it in the games? That seems like the biggest advantage of them all.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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If he's trying to gain an advantage out of everything, why do you believe that he wouldn't use it in the games? That seems like the biggest advantage of them all.
BECAUSE HE SAID HE DIDNT!!! PEOPLE DON'T EVER LIE!!!
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:10 PM    (permalink
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theorotically, couldnt belicheat have taped the defensive signals then:

sync them up with the game footage; then when you see the same hand signal x amount of times, and everytime its a certain blitz/coverage (lets use cb blitz for example)

then when you play that team again, and the o-coord or brady sees that signal, they could audible to a more favorable play

is that possible?
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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theorotically, couldnt belicheat have taped the defensive signals then:

sync them up with the game footage; then when you see the same hand signal x amount of times, and everytime its a certain blitz/coverage (lets use cb blitz for example)

then when you play that team again, and the o-coord or brady sees that signal, they could audible to a more favorable play

is that possible?
Yes, it is likely that is what happened. But I think it is naive to rule out the possibility that they had people breaking it down DURING the games to be used in the second half.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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thats what i thought they would do; i also assumed they could get the tape at halftime, and have the signals halfway through the 3rd at the latest

at least if i was the coach and cheated, thats what i would do

oh, and the blind homerism in this thread is annoying
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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thats what i thought they would do; i also assumed they could get the tape at halftime, and have the signals halfway through the 3rd at the latest

at least if i was the coach and cheated, thats what i would do

oh, and the blind homerism in this thread is annoying
Ya, no kidding.

Personally, I have no problem that they cheated. But if you get caught, own up to it and accept your punishment. If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:42 PM    (permalink
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It's not blind homerism to defend your team from pure speculation, which is exactly what is happening with the Walsh tapes. Nobody has seen these tapes (outside of Walsh, and supposedly others) yet people are willing to condemn the patriots as having cheated before the superbowl in 2001 against the rams.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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It's not blind homerism to defend your team from pure speculation, which is exactly what is happening with the Walsh tapes. Nobody has seen these tapes (outside of Walsh, and supposedly others) yet people are willing to condemn the patriots as having cheated before the superbowl in 2001 against the rams.
Maybe because they were caught illegally taping earlier this year already?
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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Maybe because they were caught illegally taping earlier this year already?
But the walsh tapes are from 7 years prior and were said to have been the actions of an employee acting on his own accord

Edit: Who is no longer with the team
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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But the walsh tapes are from 7 years prior and were said to have been the actions of an employee acting on his own accord

Edit: Who is no longer with the team
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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I dont get why people want to believe the Patriots when they say they didnt do it and they didnt cheat and Matt Walsh was acting on his own and they didnt haven anything to do with it despite the fact that he was under their employment. Of course they are going to say those things.

If the entire reputation of one of the most highly respected NFL franchises of the past several years was to come into question, of course they are going to deny all allegations against them. They aren't just going to say "Well, you got us!" They will deny, deny, deny until the truth comes out of what they did. Perhaps they are being truthful, but with the evidence already against them (previous taped games and former employee who backs up cheating claims) its not hard to connect the dots and make pretty easy assumptions.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by skarocksoi View Post
I dont get why people want to believe the Patriots when they say they didnt do it and they didnt cheat and Matt Walsh was acting on his own and they didnt haven anything to do with it despite the fact that he was under their employment. Of course they are going to say those things.

If the entire reputation of one of the most highly respected NFL franchises of the past several years was to come into question, of course they are going to deny all allegations against them. They aren't just going to say "Well, you got us!" They will deny, deny, deny until the truth comes out of what they did. Perhaps they are being truthful, but with the evidence already against them (previous taped games and former employee who backs up cheating claims) its not hard to connect the dots and make pretty easy assumptions.
the "evidence" of their former employee saying that they taped the walkthrough is not evidence at all. It comes down to his word against the patriots (basically BB's) word, not evidence at all. Also, the evidence of tapes from previous years actually took place after the supposed walkthrough tapes. Am I naive enough to believe that there is no way they were connected, no. But at the same time it does not serve as proof that they actually did tell him to tape the walkthrough, or even use the walkthrough after he taped it (meaning if he came to them and said he had the tape w/out their knowing).

And you answered your first question by yourself. Why would people want to defend them? because, as you go on to say, they have been one of the most highly respected franchises for the past several years. Excuse us for not jumping into the group that is out to get BB out of the NFL, or have the patriots stripped of the superbowl win(s). I for one want the evidence to come out completely (if it ever does) before I pass judgement on something.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:42 PM    (permalink
someone447
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Originally Posted by Bigburt63 View Post
the "evidence" of their former employee saying that they taped the walkthrough is not evidence at all. It comes down to his word against the patriots (basically BB's) word, not evidence at all. Also, the evidence of tapes from previous years actually took place after the supposed walkthrough tapes. Am I naive enough to believe that there is no way they were connected, no. But at the same time it does not serve as proof that they actually did tell him to tape the walkthrough, or even use the walkthrough after he taped it (meaning if he came to them and said he had the tape w/out their knowing).

And you answered your first question by yourself. Why would people want to defend them? because, as you go on to say, they have been one of the most highly respected franchises for the past several years. Excuse us for not jumping into the group that is out to get BB out of the NFL, or have the patriots stripped of the superbowl win(s). I for one want the evidence to come out completely (if it ever does) before I pass judgement on something.
An eyewitness is usually enough to convict in a murder case...

I don't want either of those things.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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An eyewitness is usually enough to convict in a murder case...

I don't want either of those things.
Never said you did specifically, just that alot of people do.

Also, an eye witness to a murder case is alot different than an ex-employee who has held tapes for years before coming forth and speaking out, who cannot prove that he had actually given the tapes to the Patriots coaching staff, nor that the coaching staff had asked him to tape the walkthrough in the first place.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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Never said you did specifically, just that alot of people do.

Also, an eye witness to a murder case is alot different than an ex-employee who has held tapes for years before coming forth and speaking out, who cannot prove that he had actually given the tapes to the Patriots coaching staff, nor that the coaching staff had asked him to tape the walkthrough in the first place.
You can't honestly believe that is the case, can you? Really, really think about that. If he has the tapes, it is quite obvious that the coaching staff told him to do it.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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You can't honestly believe that is the case, can you? Really, really think about that. If he has the tapes, it is quite obvious that the coaching staff told him to do it.
Well, something isnt sitting right with me. If he supposedly has all this info, then the peices would be fitting according to him. In fact it is quite the opposite. Pioli is exposing him for what hes worth, and esposing things Walsh is saying, and proving them to be lies. If he had the tapes this would be out already. I odnt believe this Walsh character one bit. He is living a lie.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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You can't honestly believe that is the case, can you? Really, really think about that. If he has the tapes, it is quite obvious that the coaching staff told him to do it.
Is it completely unrealistic for an employee to be overzealous and perform an illegal (even bending the rules slightly) task for their employer, thinking that it would please the boss? It is not entirely unthinkable for the patriots to have turned him down if he came forward with the tape, and for them to have never ordered the taping of the walkthrough in the first place.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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BECAUSE HE SAID HE DIDNT!!! PEOPLE DON'T EVER LIE!!!
And there is absolutely zero proof that he ever did. Period.
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