Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2008, 10:52 AM    (permalink
OzTitan
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,016
Reputation: 194073
OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suits View Post
Hey guys, this is my first post and I just wanted to say that I love what I read around nfldc. Quality forum you've got going here.

Anyway, there's a common misconception that the Redskins are in "cap hell" every offseason because of the massive contracts they give out. Really, Dan Snyder has found a clever way to get around the cap system for the most part.

The Redskins' contracts are almost always six or seven year deals where the money is backloaded to the last three or four years to minimize short-term cap numbers. If the player makes it to the last few years of his contract, Snyder tells them he will restructure their contract, converting the base salary (that counts against the cap) into gauranteed money that doesn't count against the cap. The players almost always accept the restructured contracts because they are of equal value.

Basically, because Snyder is willing to throw around gauranteed money he is able to circumvent the cap. This is how the Skins get out of cap hell and sign so many free agents every year. As a skins fan, it took me about three years of fearing "cap hell" before I realized that snyder knew what he was doing (with money at least)
Nice first post, but not quite right :) By converting to signing bonus, it still counts, it's just prorated over the contract's life.

Say a player is set to make $10M in base salary in his 3rd last season under contract, he can restructure it to a signing bonus of, say, $9M with $1M still left as base salary. That $9M is paid out straight away, but since it is now a "signing bonus", it's spread out over the life of the deal cap wise. So if there are 3 years left, it will count $3M against the cap in each of the remaining years. Therefore, instead of a $10M base salary in the current year, he has a $1M base salary and $3M of his new signing bonus counting against the cap - a $6M saving for the current year.

The thing is though, it can only be done to base salaries - he would have had a signing bonus for the prior deal as well, so it's previous prorated cap value for that 3rd last year would remain as is even after the restructuring. If he originally signed a 5 year deal with $15M in signing bonus, $3M would already be on the books for that 3rd last year. So basically, this move changed his 3rd last year cap number from $13M to $7M, but by doing so, it added more guaranteed money to the final 2 years of the deal, which means the player is more of a long term commitment than ever. Might be hard to get rid of if he isn't working out.

Obviously not every owner can do this - all that signing bonus money isn't easy to come by for some teams. The process is called "Cash over cap", and it can help give teams with more immediate cash assets sign and retain players. In any given year, Snyder could overspend the cap limit by more $M's than some teams have to play with signing bonus wise.

It's not without future consequences though, and it certainly isn't a "way around the cap". If it wasn't for the nicely timed CBA extension with the cap spikes, the Redskins wouldn't be as comfortable right now (along with a few other teams). It's pretty hard to be in cap hell when the cap spikes up as much as it has lately. It is still merely a way of selling the future cap health for the immediate team's sake. It is definitely a little more advanced than normal methods of spending for now and paying for it later, but it does catch up. It's really just pushing money around, not making it disappear. One year, Snyder may find there is no possible way to push that money around with his player contracts anymore, and it will be impossible for him to fit under. There was a rumor that could have been the case in 06 had the CBA not been extended.

Last edited by OzTitan : 03-09-2008 at 11:00 AM.
OzTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 02:20 PM    (permalink
The Legend
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canton 2013
Posts: 4,226
Reputation: 1801
The Legend could make a wolverine purr.The Legend could make a wolverine purr.The Legend could make a wolverine purr.The Legend could make a wolverine purr.The Legend could make a wolverine purr.The Legend could make a wolverine purr.
Default

Quote:
They are $19.5 million OVER the 2008 cap as we sit here this morning. That means they're $25 million worse-off than any team in the NFL entering the offseason.
http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/...-hell-in-2008/
The Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 03:17 PM    (permalink
critesy
All-Pro
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 6,787
Reputation: 80993
critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.critesy is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Legend View Post

well thank god that wasnt posted in november.
__________________


RIP, Sean Taylor.
critesy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 03:52 PM    (permalink
nobodyinparticular
Hall of Famer
Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Not Oakland, CA
Posts: 21,298
Reputation: 2529147
nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.nobodyinparticular is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flave1969 View Post
The re-structured Chris Cooley's 11 million roster bonus over the life of his contract, that turned an 12.2 million cap hit into a 4.4 million hit.
$11 million roster bonus? There's no way anyone would ever actually see an $11 million roster bonus. I'm starting to think that Snyder gives these types of contracts out just to perpetuate the idea that the Redskins are always in cap trouble.

Ok, so that was a little tongue in cheek. However, it's true that no one would ever actually see $11 million handed to them in a roster bonus. What the large roster bonus actually does, is it gives the team (in this case the Redskins) the flexibility to look at a player a couple years after signing the contract to see if he's actually worth that much money. If he is, you do what the Redskins did and give him the money in the form of a signing bonus. If he's not, then you tell him to re-structure the deal by taking a paycut or he'll get cut. Why don't they just add the $11 million in the original signing bonus you ask? This is vastly better than just adding that $11 million onto the original signing bonus, because if you get to the 2nd or 3rd year and see that the player is not actually worth the money, you're in a heck of a lot of trouble. Again, much more flexibility in being able to decide whether or not the player is good enough for that much money

In a practical sense, it also allows the team to split up large amounts of money over a few years rather than one fat check. Let's be honest, even football franchises worth over a billion dollars can have trouble handing out checks for $30 million at a time on top of the $90-100 million in base salaries/roster bonuses. (plus the payroll of coaches, scouts, other staff, maintenance and other fees for the stadium, etc.) So what you see teams doing, especially with top 5 rookie contracts, is splitting up the $30 million signing bonus into 2 sections with an "option bonus" coming the next offseason. It's an option bonus because the team has the option of picking up the contract or not. If not, the player becomes a free agent. However, in terms of rookie contracts, to ensure that the player gets all the money, these are usually guaranteed to where even if the team decides not to pick up the option, the player still gets the same amount of money.

All this to say, Snyder (or whoever actually does the contract negotiations for him) was really smart with that Cooley contract. It's the first time I've seen something like that (although obviously I don't see every NFL player's contract) and it's a really good move on his part.
__________________

Oldie but a goodie.
nobodyinparticular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 03:56 PM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 20,913
Reputation: 2009538
LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I kept telling people it was pretty pointless to say things like the Redskins cant afford Deangelo Hall, or anyone else for that matter...Snyder spends money and makes it work, and he has no problem trading draft picks for high priced players.
__________________





Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
LonghornsLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2008, 04:07 PM    (permalink
BaLLiN
2014 Mock Draft Champion
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 10,094
Reputation: 362580
BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.BaLLiN is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
I kept telling people it was pretty pointless to say things like the Redskins cant afford Deangelo Hall, or anyone else for that matter...Snyder spends money and makes it work, and he has no problem trading draft picks for high priced players.
That was me who said it, but i only said it about redskins.
__________________


Sig by BK <3

Jerry Reese is sooo Dreamy <3333


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumper's Rep Comment
I ****** hate you, stupid *** smd
Greatest. Rep. Comment. EVER! You're not 12 or anything.
Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love (:
BaLLiN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 08:53 AM    (permalink
Jughead10
The Juggernaut
Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 23,303
Reputation: 487699
Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Jughead10 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzTitan View Post
It's not without future consequences though, and it certainly isn't a "way around the cap". If it wasn't for the nicely timed CBA extension with the cap spikes, the Redskins wouldn't be as comfortable right now (along with a few other teams). It's pretty hard to be in cap hell when the cap spikes up as much as it has lately. It is still merely a way of selling the future cap health for the immediate team's sake. It is definitely a little more advanced than normal methods of spending for now and paying for it later, but it does catch up. It's really just pushing money around, not making it disappear. One year, Snyder may find there is no possible way to push that money around with his player contracts anymore, and it will be impossible for him to fit under. There was a rumor that could have been the case in 06 had the CBA not been extended.
This is a good point. The last two years the salary cap has jumped in very large amounts to the CBA agreement. Thats why you see these crazy contracts and so many teams with 20-30 million in cap room. Starting with next year, the increases in the salary cap should be much more minimal than they have the last two years. Could be why the Skins, despite getting under the cap this year, haven't made many moves. It won't be as easy for them to get under the cap next year.
Jughead10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 09:39 AM    (permalink
TyronePoole38
 
Posts: n/a
Reputation:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by flave1969 View Post
They cut one player in Brandon Lloyd who will be a June 1st Cut.
Lloyd is not a June 1st cut. He is already cut and signed with Chicago. ;)
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 06:07 PM    (permalink
flave1969
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 246
Reputation: 26822
flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TyronePoole38 View Post
Lloyd is not a June 1st cut. He is already cut and signed with Chicago. ;)
You can now cut two players ahead of June 1st and split the money in the same way as the old rule. You do not have to wait anymore.
flave1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 06:44 PM    (permalink
flave1969
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 246
Reputation: 26822
flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.flave1969 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10 View Post
This is a good point. The last two years the salary cap has jumped in very large amounts to the CBA agreement. Thats why you see these crazy contracts and so many teams with 20-30 million in cap room. Starting with next year, the increases in the salary cap should be much more minimal than they have the last two years. Could be why the Skins, despite getting under the cap this year, haven't made many moves. It won't be as easy for them to get under the cap next year.
Next year I think you are going to see some major cuts in the roster, for instance I just can't see our top three salaried players this year being on the roster next year (Springs, Washington, and Griffin) and not because of money. Right there if they were to be let go you are looking at somewhere in the region of $15 million in savings.

Adding up the Top 51 contracts for next year, which will change because of the draft signings. They stand at 120 million, if you add in Brandon Lloyds Dead Cap that totals around $124 million, for 09 we have no more Dead Cap right now. That will change I am sure by the end of the summer.

At the appropriate time next year I think you will see the Redskins around $10-$12 million under the 2009 cap.
flave1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 06:54 PM    (permalink
Pacific
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 332
Reputation: 4413
Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.Pacific is so money.
Default

Snyder is probably also doing his financial planning knowing that there is a good chance there won't be a salary cap in a few years when the CBA runs out.
__________________
Pacific is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 07:09 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
#1 Vickscuser
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: LakerLand
Posts: 13,130
Reputation: 628697
yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.yourfavestoner is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I keep seeing that you believe the cap will be a thing of the past shortly. Why do you believe this?
Vic: I’m starting to think that way because I see teams operating decidedly against the spirit of the cap; almost in contempt of it. Washington is the best example. The Redskins have been pushing the revenue envelope in a big way, which, of course, drives the cap higher and higher and makes it more difficult for small-market, low-revenue teams to keep their heads above water. The Redskins know that. The Redskins have also been pushing the cap envelope in a big way and wouldn’t have been able to get under the cap in 2006 if there hadn’t been a new CBA. They could find themselves back in that situation in ’09 if owners vote no on the current CBA on Nov. 8, something I have to believe the Redskins didn’t believe would happen. If ’09 is to be the last capped year, then something called a “30 percent rule” will be invoked and that’ll restrict the Redskins’ ability to convert base salary into signing bonus, which is a popular way of creating cap room. If ’09 is to be the last capped year, the Redskins could possibly find themselves unable to get under the cap or having to cut anybody who represents a cap savings. For the cap system to work, all of the teams have to be on board with it; all teams have to operate respectfully of the cap system and within the spirit of its intent. If a few teams want to kill it, they can, and I’m seeing teams that want to kill it.


http://jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=6803

There you go.
yourfavestoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2008, 09:04 PM    (permalink
OzTitan
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,016
Reputation: 194073
OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.OzTitan is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Seems to me they should just tighten up cap policy regarding 'cash over cap' conduct for any new CBA - sure most owners would agree.

And this is what I meant for 06-07 where the Redskins apparently may not have been able to fit under the cap then either if it wasn't for the CBA extension. Didn't know there was a "30% rule" though, thanks for adding that.
OzTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2008, 10:20 PM    (permalink
Suits
Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 7
Reputation: 75
Suits hopes to escalate quickly but not get out of hand.
Default

Thanks for the correction Oz, I didn't realize the signing bonus was spread over the life of the contract.

Also a very good point about the growth of the cap. I still have a hard time believing some of the contracts (Pace, Walker) people are receiving in free agency. No doubt Snyder's contracts in recent years have pushed the price of free agents through the roof.

Side Note: I was a lurker, but I have changed my ways :)
Suits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2008, 09:57 AM    (permalink
bsaza2358
Arch-Bishop
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 15,212
Reputation: 234557
bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bsaza2358 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonsterwu View Post
I'm still surprised the Redskins haven't made a move for DJ Hackett, considering there isn't much of a market out there for him right now. He seems to be a perfect fit (bigger receiver, knows the system).
Hackett is scheduled for a FA visit today.
__________________



I am "America's Poster"... http://www.nfldraftcountdown.com/for...9&postcount=25

bsaza2358 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.