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Old 03-18-2008, 11:40 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
I'd toss our name there. Really since 2004 our o-line has gotten better and better, not to mention we are deep AND versatile. But I do agree speed guys can get the best of David D. David D got his jock handed to him in the superbowl. Everytime I looked he was getting his butt shoved back or just beat by Thomas.

If I had to change something I would get a LT and move David D back or draft a better LG than Rich S. and this can help us when we run 38 power.
Yeah, I definitely agree. Im curious to see if we slide Whimper in at LT this year or if we keep our formula we have right now.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Yeah, I definitely agree. Im curious to see if we slide Whimper in at LT this year or if we keep our formula we have right now.
Guess it depends on training camp and preseason. He was out there in our goal line formation, and did a decent job. Hopefully he can progress and one day start.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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They are top five at least.

1. NE
2. Clevland
3. Dallas
4. NYJ
5. Indy
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
Guess it depends on training camp and preseason. He was out there in our goal line formation, and did a decent job. Hopefully he can progress and one day start.
he looked real good in the Tampa playoff game too, when he subbed in for Diehl.

i was impressed, and ive been very critical of him in the past. its like he just turned on a switch.
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by jetsfan0099 View Post
Its not funny, its debatable, the Bills OL isn't that great. Jets potentially can be better, I say the Pats have the best OL in the division still. They played great besides the SB.
Bills all they have really is Peters, everyone else is average. Jets have 2 above average/stud O-linemen right now in Faneca and Mangold. And Brick has the potential to be a stud O-linemen/ above average player.
LOL, keep talking out of your ass. Peters was a Pro-Bowler and Dockery lived up to the contract he got. So did Langston Walker. Brad Butler played surprisingly well in his first season at RG. Fowler is serviceable but can be upgraded. Peters is elite, Dockery is great, Walker is above average, Butler is slightly above average, Fowler is average.

You have to factor in that the Jets O-Line has never played together too. 2 new starters is a big change for an O-Line. I'd take the Bills line all day over the Jets. Without a consistent LT, Clemens won't be able to get comfortable in the pocket. 13.5 sacks is a lot to give up in one year.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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You know I just typed two paragraphs about how statistics for O-Lines can be extremely deceiving. Light is no Thomas, and Steinbach isn't any worse than Mankins. New England has a sick line no doubt, but a lot of that is scheme and Tom Brady's release too.
Statistics are, what they are, my friend.

When it comes down to it, you are comparing two top 3-7 offensive lines in both the pass and run game.

Of course protection schemes and run patterns matter, however, the same can hold true for the Browns line as well.

On the left side, as I said...Thomas and Steinbach have the name value, but their side wasn't as productive as was NE and even INDY from that side...regardless of who the names are.

Statistics, in their singular form can be very misleading, however, being able to combine statistics and simply observing often leads to the end result.

I'd take the OL of NE and INDY over any other team. NE found a hole in their line during the Super Bowl, but throughout the season, they were simply the best. INDY wasn't far off...and, if you are judging Thomas, don't forget Ugoh was actually better than Thomas last year. Find a rookie who allowed only 1 sack while committing only 1 penalty all year on the left side like Ugoh, and you have yourself a cookie (Thomas had 7 penalties and 4.5 sacks) while having a greater ypc than Thomas in runs behind him.

However, like I said, breaking them down, they are incredibly even...Cleveland's just has more upside. Although, Ugoh has elite upside, just as much as Joe Thomas.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Ugoh was not better than Thomas last year. No way.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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Ugoh did miss 5 or 6 games last season. But he and Thomas are going to make annual trips to Honolulu imo, they are the future and it doesn't look like there's anyone in the AFC who will Ogden his overrated ass to the Pro Bowl. Then again Matt Light was somehow voted to the All-Pro team last year, so who knows.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:44 PM    (permalink
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Ugoh was not better than Thomas last year. No way.
he was pretty good though. not Thomas good, but good. you have to be very disciplined to be a Colt linemen.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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Ugoh was not better than Thomas last year. No way.
Two totally different types of players, but yes, in fact, Ugoh, despite missing time, was better than Thomas last year.

Thomas had a bit of an issue with the early jumps last year.

Ugoh, stepped in for Tarik Glenn and the Colts didn't miss a beat, that speaks VOLUMES for the type of player he is considering how elite Tarik Glenn was before retiring last year.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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I got the Jets right behind NE ..

1. New England
2. NYJ
3. Green Bay
4. Cleveland
5. Tennessee
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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Two totally different types of players, but yes, in fact, Ugoh, despite missing time, was better than Thomas last year.

Thomas had a bit of an issue with the early jumps last year.

Ugoh, stepped in for Tarik Glenn and the Colts didn't miss a beat, that speaks VOLUMES for the type of player he is considering how elite Tarik Glenn was before retiring last year.
Joe Thomas was elite from about week 3...he didnt allow any pressure from then on. IMO he was one of the best O-Linemen in the whole league last year.

And thats coming from a bias (against the browns) Steelers fan.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Wow talk about overrating. The Jets were one of the worst O-lines in the league last year. Two signings does nothing to make this unit top 5. Mangold is a stud but Ferguson didn't play as well as he did as a rookie. He needs to get better. Didn't see a whole lot of Faneca last year but many Pitt fans seem to think he has lost something. Could be he wasn't surrounded with the talent he had been in the past. If he hasn't lost something, you have got yourself an all pro. Not crazy about Woody. Has some versatility but is average in my opinion. Plus O-lines need time to work as a unit together. If a Jets fan is expecting a top 5 O-line next season, they are going to be dissapointed.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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ugoh was terrible last year, giving pressure up left, right and centre. it's a measure of how good manning is that it didn't affect him that much
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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I saw every snap Ugoh played last year, and it was nothing of that sort.

Maybe you're thinking of Charlie Johnson, who played at LT because of Ugoh's injury, and is functionally inept at both pass-blocking and run-blocking.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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You mean that NE line that was abused in the Super Bowl? Injuries are a part of every teams' season so unless a team has depth that covers an injury to a G and a T during the year, they really can't be considered best
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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i would say certainly not, and for simple reasons.

Last year the line was not very good.
DBrick isn't at this point a 'premier' tackle
2 new additions means that we haven't seen them play together, thus cannot know what to expect.

IMO this is just to premature to make this claim
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I saw every snap Ugoh played last year, and it was nothing of that sort.

Maybe you're thinking of Charlie Johnson, who played at LT because of Ugoh's injury, and is functionally inept at both pass-blocking and run-blocking.
no doubt johnson was worse but i saw ugoh a few times last season and he looked woeful, maybe not giving up sacks but he gives up pressure and hits seemingly at will. for people to even consider that he was on joe thomas' level is laughable imo
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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LOL, keep talking out of your ass. Peters was a Pro-Bowler and Dockery lived up to the contract he got. So did Langston Walker. Brad Butler played surprisingly well in his first season at RG. Fowler is serviceable but can be upgraded. Peters is elite, Dockery is great, Walker is above average, Butler is slightly above average, Fowler is average.

You have to factor in that the Jets O-Line has never played together too. 2 new starters is a big change for an O-Line. I'd take the Bills line all day over the Jets. Without a consistent LT, Clemens won't be able to get comfortable in the pocket. 13.5 sacks is a lot to give up in one year.
That 13 sacks is BS, most weren't his fault. Walter Jones has been letting over over 10 sacks a season, he must stink also?? I think that stat is BS. Ferguson had a horrible LG next to him, that he had no trust in. Most of the sacks I can tell you came from Clarke, it may not show up on the stupid stat line, but from watching the games I can tell you Clarke got blown by almost every time. Brick just needs to be consistent the whole season, he played amazing for 7 games this year. Dominating Jason Taylor, Trent Cole, Osi, Aaron Schobel, and some other guys.

The only guy I would take on the Bills line is Peters. Langston Walker isn't special, hes a big terd.
When ever I watch the Bills against the Jets, they do a bunch of short passes and 3 step drop backs.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Joe Thomas was elite from about week 3...he didnt allow any pressure from then on. IMO he was one of the best O-Linemen in the whole league last year.

And thats coming from a bias (against the browns) Steelers fan.
I don't think I ever said anything against Joe Thomas being anything other than elite, although, I do think he had some issues with the false starts.

Ugoh, however, was damn near flawless last year.

I have no idea who this guy above me is talking about, as a Jaguars fan, Ugoh was as good as any tackle as I saw last year, that includes Thomas.

btw - just for the sake of it, the left tackle for the Jets, while as talented as JT and TU, couldn't hold the jock of either...I think in half the season he allowed more sacks than TU and JT combined.

People are too quick to judge name over production...which is why undeserving lineman go to Hawaii every year.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Joe Thomas > Tony Ugoh in everything that has to do with football.

Joe Thomas only gave up 1 sack all year last year and that was the first game of the year. NOT 4.5. That would mean since our OL only gave up 19 sacks all year, that JT averaged more sacks per game then the other 4 OL on the team. And since Shaffer gave up 8, I think that is impossible that Thomas gave up 4.5. It was allready reported on our web site that THomas only gave up 1 all year.

Sure Ugoh was a rookie also and will be good, but he isnt anywhere near the level Thomas is.

Ugoh also missed how many games? At least Thomas could stay on the field......FOR EVERY SNAP last year.


The announcers during the pro bowl (for what its worth) said Thomas was the best OLmen that day hands down.


"Two totally different types of players, but yes, in fact, Ugoh, despite missing time, was better than Thomas last year."

WHAT A JOKE!
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Has anyone even mentioned the Giants line as consideration for the best. Kinda hard to do what they did with an average o-line. Probably because no one has heard of them. They are a very good group though
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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Joe Thomas > Tony Ugoh in everything that has to do with football.

Joe Thomas only gave up 1 sack all year last year and that was the first game of the year. NOT 4.5. That would mean since our OL only gave up 19 sacks all year, that JT averaged more sacks per game then the other 4 OL on the team. And since Shaffer gave up 8, I think that is impossible that Thomas gave up 4.5. It was allready reported on our web site that THomas only gave up 1 all year.

Sure Ugoh was a rookie also and will be good, but he isnt anywhere near the level Thomas is.

Ugoh also missed how many games? At least Thomas could stay on the field......FOR EVERY SNAP last year.


The announcers during the pro bowl (for what its worth) said Thomas was the best OLmen that day hands down.


"Two totally different types of players, but yes, in fact, Ugoh, despite missing time, was better than Thomas last year."

WHAT A JOKE!
http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playersta...id=8257&team=5

He gave up 4, sorry to hurt your feelings...

And, for the Walter Jones comment...yeah, he wasn't very good the year he gave up 10 sacks...at least not pass pro. That was also the year he lost Hutchinson by his side. Just like the year Ogden gave up 9, he was pretty bad that year too.

I love how people flip out whenever you say the slightest thing wrong about their perception of a player on their team.

Never said Thomas was bad, but people don't really recognize how good Tony Ugoh was last year.
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Menardo75 View Post
Has anyone even mentioned the Giants line as consideration for the best. Kinda hard to do what they did with an average o-line. Probably because no one has heard of them. They are a very good group though
and we have sucky RBs as far as blocking. Diehl did alright, it was his first year in transition, it was alot about teamwork. Manning isnt real great at evading sacks and isnt that hard to take down, so the QB should be taken into consideration as well.
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:31 PM    (permalink
DawgBone
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http://hosted.stats.com/fb/playersta...id=8257&team=5

He gave up 4, sorry to hurt your feelings...

And, for the Walter Jones comment...yeah, he wasn't very good the year he gave up 10 sacks...at least not pass pro. That was also the year he lost Hutchinson by his side. Just like the year Ogden gave up 9, he was pretty bad that year too.

I love how people flip out whenever you say the slightest thing wrong about their perception of a player on their team.

Never said Thomas was bad, but people don't really recognize how good Tony Ugoh was last year.
Ugoh is going to have to play more than 2/3 the season before anyone gives him his credit.

Thomas is also a year younger on a lesser offense.

Last edited by DawgBone : 03-18-2008 at 04:33 PM.
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