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View Poll Results: Interior or Exterior Pass Rush?
Interior Pass Rush 83 68.03%
Exterior Pass Rush 39 31.97%
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Old 10-05-2008, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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i wouldnt call Jenkins an franchise DT and i wouldnt call thosse Rookies franchise DTs. Then u have to take out warren and Seymour since they are 3-4 players, if ud do that ud have to add those pass rushing guys like Merriman and DeMarcus Ware
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Old 10-05-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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I think we are getting off base here.

We don't care how often the players come around, we want to know which type of pass-rush you would rather have.

Warren Sapp or Michael Strahan? Give me Sapp for reasons already stated.
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Old 10-05-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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If you talking about rushing the passer, a DE is a mile ahead of a DT. Name me 4 DT's who can claim 10+ sack a year on a consistant basis, heck name me 2 who can do it, they are few and far between. If you want to improve your pass rush, a team won't be looking to draft a DT. All defenses that want a great pass rush start on the outside. Sure, it is nice to have a guy who can collapse the pocket but you cannot do it consistantly enough to hold down a QB unless you have a great DE to apply the pressure.
A great DE doesn't need a great DT to ring up sacks but without a great DE what good is collapsing the pocket.
The OL has 3 blockers in the interior vs 2 pass rushing DT's so how effective is any interior pass rush ever going to be.
I cannot believe that anybody examining the stats could believe that a interior pass rush is superior to an exterior one.
Just because less DT's can generate 10 sacks doesn't make them less valuable, if anything, that would make them much more rare, much different to gameplan for, and as an effect, more valuable...
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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One other point. If an interior pass rush is so effective even more so than an exterior one, why do pro teams covet a LT on offense and leave OG's and OC's to round 2 and beyond. People who argue that an interior pass rush is superior simply don't know what they are talking about. Pro teams have learned that an interior pass rush can be handled by far more average players but an exterior pass rush requires a player with HOF potential. Surely it would be the other way around if an interior pass rush was superior????
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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One other point. If an interior pass rush is so effective even more so than an exterior one, why do pro teams covet a LT on offense and leave OG's and OC's to round 2 and beyond. People who argue that an interior pass rush is superior simply don't know what they are talking about. Pro teams have learned that an interior pass rush can be handled by far more average players but an exterior pass rush requires a player with HOF potential. Surely it would be the other way around if an interior pass rush was superior????
Now while I agree that exterior is superior to interior, that is just a dumb statement. Like you said, pass rushing defensive tackles are harder to find. Pass rushing defensive ends are not. If there are ten or less really effective interior pass rushers and 40 really effective exterior pass rushers then of course teams are going to select players to block the exterior players (the defensive ends) because they will face them more often.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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I would rather have a great exterior DEs, that can rush or contain, and then use various fronts and blitzes to overload A gap. So have our DEs do their thing, and force the QB to step up, and then blitz and overload A gap, and slant or stunt the DTs.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Now while I agree that exterior is superior to interior, that is just a dumb statement. Like you said, pass rushing defensive tackles are harder to find. Pass rushing defensive ends are not. If there are ten or less really effective interior pass rushers and 40 really effective exterior pass rushers then of course teams are going to select players to block the exterior players (the defensive ends) because they will face them more often.
Considering there are only 32 teams in the league, I think finding 40 really effective exterior pass rushers isn't close to reality. There are probably less than 10 great exterior pass rushers in the league so your whole argument has no merit.
Pro teams seek great LT's because they obviously fear the exterior pass rush over the interior pass rush by quite a margin. Interior pass blockers can effectively work as a team and rarely have to handle a great interior pass rusher on their own. They out number the DT's 3 to 2 which usually fees the OC to double team the most dangerous interior pass rusher.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Considering there are only 32 teams in the league, I think finding 40 really effective exterior pass rushers isn't close to reality. There are probably less than 10 great exterior pass rushers in the league so your whole argument has no merit.
Pro teams seek great LT's because they obviously fear the exterior pass rush over the interior pass rush by quite a margin. Interior pass blockers can effectively work as a team and rarely have to handle a great interior pass rusher on their own. They out number the DT's 3 to 2 which usually fees the OC to double team the most dangerous interior pass rusher.
I said good, not great. There were 31 players with at least 7 sacks last season, 23 of them were defensive ends. 4 of them were defensive tackles. Out of players with at least 8 sacks, 18 were defensive ends while 2 were defensive tackles. The trend gos on until the range hits like 3 sacks. I exaggerated, but the point still stands. There are more effective defensive ends than effective defensive tackles, so left tackle has a bigger priority.

If the league was full of players like Darnell Docket, Tommie Harris, Shaun Rodgers and Corey Williams at defensive tackle then guards would be a bigger priority.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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Ideally, youd like a versatile DE who can use both strength and speed techniques to get after the qb, a guy who can slide into DT on passing downs if need be.

Mario Williams and Justin Tuck come to mind. Thats best of both worlds.


If we're talking about purely speed rushers on the exterior vs interior rushers like Sapp, then yeah inside rush bc those guys are harder to find than pure speed rushers.

It also depends on the scheme.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Ideally, youd like a versatile DE who can use both strength and speed techniques to get after the qb, a guy who can slide into DT on passing downs if need be.
I doubt that this would have ever crossed your mind if Tuck wasn't a Giant, plus he is like the only DE doing this with great success, how is that ideal? Have the majority of those with NFL authority declared this the new standard when I wasn't paying attention or something?


and Bama, you raaacckked that kid.

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Old 10-06-2008, 11:31 AM    (permalink
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One other point. If an interior pass rush is so effective even more so than an exterior one, why do pro teams covet a LT on offense and leave OG's and OC's to round 2 and beyond. People who argue that an interior pass rush is superior simply don't know what they are talking about. Pro teams have learned that an interior pass rush can be handled by far more average players but an exterior pass rush requires a player with HOF potential. Surely it would be the other way around if an interior pass rush was superior????

This argument is stupid. It is SO much easier to double team a DT then it is to double team a DE. When you want to double team a DE, it takes away from the other possibilites of the play (ie. you need a TE, or a RB, to be the other blocker on the DE, which means less possible recievers.) Where it is much easier to double team DT's on the inside. NFL scouts value elite LT's that can be left on an island and handle elite pass rushers so it gives them more flexibility with their offense. I guess you can argue thats part of a good DE's effect, but think about it logically.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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I doubt that this would have ever crossed your mind if Tuck wasn't a Giant, plus he is like the only DE doing this with great success, how is that ideal anyways? Have the majority of those with NFL authority declared this the new standard when I wasn't paying attention or something?


and Bama, you raaacckked that kid.
thats not true. Cullen Jenkins does it too. Im a huge fan of his. Mario Williams experimented with it his rookie year. Reggie White did it sometimes with the Eagles.

Richard Seymour does it for Bellichick when they come out in a 4 man front. (i can clarify this if need be)

The Colts have done a 3 DE front for awhile as well, moving their old base LE inside and moving Mathis to LE on passing downs.

Haynesworth plays inside and outside for the Titans, as does KVB.

Tuck is the latest success story, but he surely isn't the first, and won't be the last.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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thats not true. Cullen Jenkins does it too. Im a huge fan of his. Mario Williams experimented with it his rookie year. Reggie White did it sometimes with the Eagles.

Richard Seymour does it for Bellichick when they come out in a 4 man front. (i can clarify this if need be)

The Colts have done a 3 DE front for awhile as well, moving their old base LE inside and moving Mathis to LE on passing downs.

Haynesworth plays inside and outside for the Titans, as does KVB.

Tuck is the latest success story, but he surely isn't the first, and won't be the last.
So at the moment, 3 players do it every game?
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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They do it with Jamaal Anderson on occasion, but that's just beause he is fat and slow.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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So at the moment, 3 players do it every game?


Tuck, Cullen Jenkins, KVB, Haynesworth, Seymour, Greg Ellis are a few names off the top of my head that ive seen do it on numerous occasions.

More have the potential to do it. It will be a new trend in the NFL that was popularized by the emergence of Tuck, but has been done for a long time prior to him.

Finding true interior pass rushers are not easy, but every team desires to have an interior rush. The "new" thing is manipulating an interior rush by having a versatile inside/outside guy move around on passing downs, and using various stunts and twists combined with blitz packages to throw off pass protection packages.

The Giants have made it popular amongst the masses, but this has been done for awhile now. Its a copycat league, now after seeing its success with the Giants, more teams will do it. Thats how the NFL is, we've seen it time and time again. This is the new "it" thing.
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Old 10-06-2008, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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They do it with Jamaal Anderson on occasion, but that's just beause he is fat and slow.
he needs to get down to a lean 265/70, and he can salvage his career. he's good against the run, but he needs a good mentor to get his potential out of him.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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he needs to get down to a lean 265/70, and he can salvage his career. he's good against the run, but he needs a good mentor to get his potential out of him.
I've almost given up on him. 0 (as in the number below 1) sacks in 21 career games. He got pressure twice yesterday and, watching, it kind of felt like seeing an infant speek his first words.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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I've almost given up on him. 0 (as in the number below 1) sacks in 21 career games. He got pressure twice yesterday and, watching, it kind of felt like seeing an infant speek his first words.
you couldve had Patrick Willis instead. ouch.

but you can't knock the selection at the time. i think he still has potential, but he needs a great coach to get it out of him. the raw talent is there.


we'll trade you a 4th for him :)
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
you couldve had Patrick Willis instead. ouch.

but you can't knock the selection at the time. i think he still has potential, but he needs a great coach to get it out of him. the raw talent is there.


we'll trade you a 4th for him :)
At the time we didn't seem to really be considering Willis. Not sure why in hindsite lol.

Seemed like it was Amobi Okoye or Jamaal Anderson. Before the draft, I was banking on us just missing out on the top talent in Adrian Peterson and LaRon Landry and we did. I wanted to trade up badly. I was mad when the Redskins passed on DL for Landry (unexpected) and AP was taken by a team who had Chester Taylor coming off of a 1,200 yard rushing season in his first season with the team (Best player available, could have taken Anderson).

I was mad at that point. We got lucky in round two getting Chris Houston and Justin Blalock though, two players I really liked.
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
At the time we didn't seem to really be considering Willis. Not sure why in hindsite lol.

Seemed like it was Amobi Okoye or Jamaal Anderson. Before the draft, I was banking on us just missing out on the top talent in Adrian Peterson and LaRon Landry and we did. I wanted to trade up badly. I was mad when the Redskins passed on DL for Landry (unexpected) and AP was taken by a team who had Chester Taylor coming off of a 1,200 yard rushing season in his first season with the team (Best player available, could have taken Anderson).

I was mad at that point. We got lucky in round two getting Chris Houston and Justin Blalock though, two players I really liked.
whats wrong with the guy though? is he just out of shape? is he suffering from Vernon Gholston syndrome and looks like he doesn't give a poop out there? lack of motor? lack of technique? what is it?
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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whats wrong with the guy though? is he just out of shape? is he suffering from Vernon Gholston syndrome and looks like he doesn't give a poop out there? lack of motor? lack of technique? what is it?
I don't really know. He lacks pass rush moves, he lacks persuit speed, he isn't quick off the ball. It looks like he tries to just use his size and natural ability, but the speed just isn't there right now. He has been a huge disappointment, even though I wasn't a huge fan of the pick I expected more than this.
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Old 10-06-2008, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Exterior pass rush is more important but interior could have a major impact. Antone realize the amount of sacks Vanden Bosch has racked up playing with Haynesworth.
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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This argument is stupid. It is SO much easier to double team a DT then it is to double team a DE. When you want to double team a DE, it takes away from the other possibilites of the play (ie. you need a TE, or a RB, to be the other blocker on the DE, which means less possible recievers.) Where it is much easier to double team DT's on the inside. NFL scouts value elite LT's that can be left on an island and handle elite pass rushers so it gives them more flexibility with their offense. I guess you can argue thats part of a good DE's effect, but think about it logically.
If you had bothered to read my other posts on the subject, you'd have seen that this is exactly what I said. Interior OLmen outnumber the DT's 3 to 2 so double teaming them is much easier.
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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I said good, not great. There were 31 players with at least 7 sacks last season, 23 of them were defensive ends. 4 of them were defensive tackles. Out of players with at least 8 sacks, 18 were defensive ends while 2 were defensive tackles. The trend gos on until the range hits like 3 sacks. I exaggerated, but the point still stands. There are more effective defensive ends than effective defensive tackles, so left tackle has a bigger priority.

If the league was full of players like Darnell Docket, Tommie Harris, Shaun Rodgers and Corey Williams at defensive tackle then guards would be a bigger priority.
DT's like Harris and Sapp play in a Cover 2 defense where the DT shoots the gap and has little responsibility for defending the run. Every Cover 2 team uses at least one DT in this manner but they also depend on a great pass rush from the outside to allow Harris the freedom to act.
The reason more DT's aren't effective rushing the passer has a lot more to do with schemes than with talent and when you add in the fact that interior OLmen outnumber the DT's 3 to 2, few HC's are prepared to use their DT's as their main pass rush.
As long as GM's know that they outnumber the DT's 3to 2 on the interior, they are never going to view the interior of the DL as a logical way to build your pass rush and they will rarely commit a very high draft pick to drafting OG's and OC's. Sure if a truly outstanding OG or OC happens to appear in the draft, teams drafting later in round 1 will occassionally draft one but certainly never in the top 10-15 picks.
Your own #'s prove beyond a shadow of a doubt which of the 2 areas provide the more efficient pass rush and the interior pass rush comes off a poor 2nd at best.
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