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AFC North Division Forum Discuss the AFC North

View Poll Results: AFC North QB's
Big Ben 38 43.18%
Carson 39 44.32%
Derek Anderson 4 4.55%
Steve McNair 0 0%
Brady Quinn 4 4.55%
Charlie Batch 0 0%
Kyle Boller 1 1.14%
Troy Smith 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-04-2008, 06:30 PM    (permalink
ChefMike
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Default Starting a New Team: QB

If you were starting a Team over today... had to choose between the QB's in the AFC North. who would you choose and why ?
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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I'd say Carson Palmer. I think he has the potential to become much better where as Ben might have peaked.
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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I am a Ravens fan so all the Ravens fans don't take this the wrong way...
But are you serious ? The weapons that Big Ben has and the numbers he puts up are silly. Its like Brett Favre type play, he has Hines Ward (Come on this guy is not a HOFer no better than Antonio Freeman when he was in GB with Favre) and Santonio Holmes ?? yeah not so much...

I'll agree Carson is a good QB.. but a proven leader and ability to make his players better ? I think not.
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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I am a Ravens fan so all the Ravens fans don't take this the wrong way...
But are you serious ? The weapons that Big Ben has and the numbers he puts up are silly. Its like Brett Favre type play, he has Hines Ward (Come on this guy is not a HOFer no better than Antonio Freeman when he was in GB with Favre) and Santonio Holmes ?? yeah not so much...

I'll agree Carson is a good QB.. but a proven leader and ability to make his players better ? I think not.
Ben is a bit overrated, mostly for the fact his recievers are underrated. Along with his good running game, he has a fringe pro bowler in Ward, Holmes is a very good young reciever, and Heath Miller is an absolute beast. He's got a lot of talent alongside him in the offense. Palmer, however, doesn't have much in the way of a running game, or at least nothing compared to Pitts.
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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Willie Parker is a product of a good passing game in Pittsburgh he is a little overrated himself. When your throwing to TJ Whosyourmama and Ocho Cinco its tough not to have great numbers. Carson doesn't win though ? Look at the Cleveland game last year ? Carson is not a leader if I was taking a QB to start a new franchise... Carson wouldnt be the guy I want as the face of the Franchise thats for sure...but again thats why this is all opinion..
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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lol at charlie batch
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Old 04-05-2008, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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Why is this even a contest? Their is 1 SB champion among these QB's. Only 1 QB who has had a burger named after him. Only 1 QB who has led his team to the playoffs two out of last 3 years. The only player to break his whole face and have his appendix removed yet still play. Ladies and gents the man is Ben Roethlisberger. Next.
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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You're really going to put Kyle Boller on the list?
It's obvious that Troy Smith is the best QB in the League =D
But, in all seriousness I would have to go with Carson Palmer.
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Here's...Carson
2nd choice would be Brady Quinn
3rd Big Ben
4th Anderson
5th Batch
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Why Charlie Batch on this list, I'd rather pick Brian St. Pierre & Ryan Fitzpatrick
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Why Charlie Batch on this list, I'd rather pick Brian St. Pierre & Ryan Fitzpatrick
What have Brian St. Pierre and Ryan Fitzpatrick done recently...nothing
Batch played well when Big Ben got hurt
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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What have Brian St. Pierre and Ryan Fitzpatrick done recently...nothing
Batch played well when Big Ben got hurt
what has Brady Quinn done? he's on the list too
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Old 04-05-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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according to the thread maker it was to start a team from scratch so i would go younger then pick a 33 year Old Back-Up QB
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Old 04-06-2008, 02:53 AM    (permalink
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according to the thread maker it was to start a team from scratch so i would go younger then pick a 33 year Old Back-Up QB
I'd take Fitzpatrick over Boller too. :P
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Old 04-06-2008, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Fitzpatrick over Boller too. :P
id take direct snaps to the RB over boller at this point.
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Old 04-06-2008, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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Carson is more fundamentally sound then any other QB in the league imo. He's got a great arm, very good accuracy, quick release and great footwork. Had he not gotten his knee destroyed its very possible cincinnati went to the SB that year.

Big Ben has the ring, but that doesn't make him the best. Is Chad and TJ a better WR tandem than Ward / Holmes? Yes. But I think its clear Big Ben has the better D to get him the ball more often and the better running game to compliment him.

People act like Big Ben was some stud when he went to the SB. They basically just ran the ball every play that year, and only asked him to pull it off when it was in favor of the passing game.

Carson has the pressure to pass on more downs than big ben, and thus makes more mistakes. Heres a break down:

Starting @ 04 -

Big Ben:

04, 295 attempts
05, 268 attempts
06, 469 attempts
07, 404 attempts

total = 1436
Carson:

04, 432 attempts
05, 509 attempts
06, 520 attempts
07, 575 attempts

total = 2036

Its not even a comparison how little big ben is needed in pitts verse how much carson is needed in cincinnati. Being surrounded by a great team does not make you a better player.
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Old 04-06-2008, 11:58 PM    (permalink
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Willie Parker is a product of a good passing game in Pittsburgh he is a little overrated himself. When your throwing to TJ Whosyourmama and Ocho Cinco its tough not to have great numbers. Carson doesn't win though ? Look at the Cleveland game last year ? Carson is not a leader if I was taking a QB to start a new franchise... Carson wouldnt be the guy I want as the face of the Franchise thats for sure...but again thats why this is all opinion..
Carson is about our only leader, you can pretty much bash the leadership of anyone on this team EXCEPT Carson.

I'm sure if you were arguing how good CJ/TJ were, you'd say, "well they have Palmer throwing to them." The fact of the matter is with the recievers he has, Carson produces and has more load on him than any QB in the AFCN.

I was 10X more impressed with Big Ben last year than the SB year. He just happened to be on the team that won the SB. I had thought he was very overrated up until last year, as of now he has shut me up and he's a dependable QB for sure.

If you had Ben/Carson on your team, you could do MUCH worse.

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Old 04-07-2008, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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No I realize it takes 2 to tango... but lets look at the numbers from just this past season...

Big Ben
--------
65.3% Comp (404 Attempts)
3154 yds Passing
32TDs 11 Ints
104.1 Passer Rating
7.8 yds / Pass

Carson
--------
64.9% Comp (575 Attempts)
4131 yds Passing
26 TDs 20 Ints
86.7 Passer Rating
7.2 yds / Pass

Ben Produced more TD's and Turned the ball over less had a higher rating and if he would have thrown 170 more passes would have had more passing yardage (Higher Comp% and yds/pass)

Don't fault him for the system look at the results... Willie Parker is just younger than Rudi Johnson.. not any better and the Line for the Bengals is better, arguably, then Pittsburgh they gave up 3x as many sacks compared to Pittsburgh... so with a quality line you should be able to generate a better offense..
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Old 04-07-2008, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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You listed all the wrong stats though :( Carson threw 175 more times than big ben. He's relied upon a lot more. Cincinnati's success is a product of Carson palmer. Ben Roethlisberger's success is a product of Pittsburgh.
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Old 04-08-2008, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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You listed all the wrong stats though :( Carson threw 175 more times than big ben. He's relied upon a lot more. Cincinnati's success is a product of Carson palmer. Ben Roethlisberger's success is a product of Pittsburgh.
I clearly listed the Passing Attempts... and remarked to the fact that if Big Ben threw as many times as Carson did... his stats would be better and he would have thrown 45 TDs ?!?! Big Ben threw a TD on average of every 12.6 throws... Carson ???... every 22 throws... so if the production came down to numbers Big Ben is going to blow him away.. but if you look at leadership.. Ok Hines Ward is probably a better leader than Ocho Cinco... but if you took Big Ben and moved him to a different Team and put an average QB in there like a Jake Delhomme or Jon Kitna you think that Pittsburgh is going to do just as well because of the system ? If thats the case than your saying anyone can win in Pittsburgh ?? I can't agree with that statement... Big Ben is a young Brett Favre and Carson is more like Mark Rypien !!! If Rypien wouldnt have had the great players around him he would have never won a Super Bowl...
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Old 04-08-2008, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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I voted for Big Ben. He is young, and everything you look for in a QB preety much. I think he can be HOF when he is done. But I understand if Palmer was selected over him.
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Old 04-08-2008, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I clearly listed the Passing Attempts... and remarked to the fact that if Big Ben threw as many times as Carson did... his stats would be better and he would have thrown 45 TDs ?!?! Big Ben threw a TD on average of every 12.6 throws... Carson ???... every 22 throws... so if the production came down to numbers Big Ben is going to blow him away.. but if you look at leadership.. Ok Hines Ward is probably a better leader than Ocho Cinco... but if you took Big Ben and moved him to a different Team and put an average QB in there like a Jake Delhomme or Jon Kitna you think that Pittsburgh is going to do just as well because of the system ? If thats the case than your saying anyone can win in Pittsburgh ?? I can't agree with that statement... Big Ben is a young Brett Favre and Carson is more like Mark Rypien !!! If Rypien wouldnt have had the great players around him he would have never won a Super Bowl...
I don't think Delhomme or Kitna could win it Pittsburgh (ok, maybe Kitna could do ok in Pittsburgh - but not as good as roethlisberger). And I don't even think Carson would do that great in Pittsburgh (Steeler's O-line isn't great, and despite carson's great feet work, he's still slow from the injury which would result in him throwing the ball away often). But I think Roethlisberger fits well with the other plays in Pittsburgh and in the system.

My only concern is that you're not acknowledging the amount of talent in Pittsburgh verse the amount of talent in Cincinnati. Lets make a little list of all the above average players in 07(obviously this is subjective, but we can come to some sort of an agreement I am sure):

Starting with Cincinnati - TJ, Chad, Carson, Levi Jones, Dexter Jackson, Justin Smith (he was a little questionable in 07, but I still think he hustled his ass off) and Landon Johnson.

Anyone else in cinci was just very average or worse.

In Pittsburgh - Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes, Heath Miller, Big Ben, Alan Faneca (some questioned Faneca and his age in 07, but I think he was still pretty good), Willie Parker, Najeh Davenport, James Farrior, Casey Hampton, Troy Polamalu, Ike Taylor, Deshea Townsend

cincinnati = 7
Pittsburgh = 12


Unfortunately I didn't find enough time to watch all the Pittsburgh games this year, so just say whoever doesn't deserve to be on that list (either of the lists, actually) and if you got anyone you want to add to Pittsburgh or Cincinnnati feel free to post it and we'll try to reach an agreement.

But again, my point is the Steelers have done a great job of getting talent into Pittsburgh (even depth wise too, imo) and Cincinnati hasn't. We have so many holes on our team its easy to explain to why Carson's stats are worse than a guy who is surrounded by talent.
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:04 PM    (permalink
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Ok but your counting the Defense in there... Big Ben and Carson don't do anything for the defense other than keep them off the field so they are well rested when they do have to play and not create turnovers..

Big Ben had just about HALF the amount of INTs that Carson had ?
5 of the players you named as great players for Pittsburgh are on Defense and 1 on Cincy but Najeh Davenport and both of the WR's didnt even generate over 1000yds rec last season ? and the OL in Pittsburgh gave up almost 3x as many sacks as the OL in Cincy ?? Not seeing where your points are holding water ??
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:03 AM    (permalink
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Ok but your counting the Defense in there... Big Ben and Carson don't do anything for the defense other than keep them off the field so they are well rested when they do have to play and not create turnovers..

Big Ben had just about HALF the amount of INTs that Carson had ?
5 of the players you named as great players for Pittsburgh are on Defense and 1 on Cincy but Najeh Davenport and both of the WR's didnt even generate over 1000yds rec last season ? and the OL in Pittsburgh gave up almost 3x as many sacks as the OL in Cincy ?? Not seeing where your points are holding water ??
I honestly hope you're kidding =P If you don't think a defense helps a quarterback out you're crazy.

1) Every time Roethlisberger throws an interception his defense has a chance to bail him out. Every time Palmer throws an interception his defense more than likely will not bail him out.

2) A good defense gets the ball back into the QB's hands more often. With the steeler's D, Big Ben will get the ball more often. The more times your offense takes the field, the more times you score, the higher chance you have of winning

3) Not only does a good defense get the ball back more often, but it keeps pressure off the QB. How many times do you think Roethlisberger went into the 4th quarter saying "Ok, I've got to win this game for my team". Now, take that same question and apply it to Palmer.

Also, I think people are reading my statements wrong. I think Roethlisberger is an extremely skilled quarterback - I think he has a good chance of getting another superbowl ring, and possibly even go to the HoF.

However, as good as I think Big Ben is, I also think that stats are bogus in this comparison. Its the same stupid argument where people say Marino wasn't the best QB because didn't have a ring. Its not -his- fault he didn't have a ring, getting a ring is a team effort. There is no single person in the history of football who is responsible for a superbowl ring. Its a team collective effort.

When / if Cincinnati pulls through and starts building a defense that isn't terrible, I think you'll see Palmer's stats improve. Unfortunately until then, people are still going to think its Palmer's fault his stats aren't better, or that cinci isn't winning
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Old 04-10-2008, 04:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
Carson is more fundamentally sound then any other QB in the league imo. He's got a great arm, very good accuracy, quick release and great footwork. Had he not gotten his knee destroyed its very possible cincinnati went to the SB that year.

Big Ben has the ring, but that doesn't make him the best. Is Chad and TJ a better WR tandem than Ward / Holmes? Yes. But I think its clear Big Ben has the better D to get him the ball more often and the better running game to compliment him.

People act like Big Ben was some stud when he went to the SB. They basically just ran the ball every play that year, and only asked him to pull it off when it was in favor of the passing game.

Carson has the pressure to pass on more downs than big ben, and thus makes more mistakes. Heres a break down:

Starting @ 04 -

Big Ben:

04, 295 attempts
05, 268 attempts
06, 469 attempts
07, 404 attempts

total = 1436
Carson:

04, 432 attempts
05, 509 attempts
06, 520 attempts
07, 575 attempts

total = 2036

Its not even a comparison how little big ben is needed in pitts verse how much carson is needed in cincinnati. Being surrounded by a great team does not make you a better player.
Oh good lord.. not the "Ben is a game manager because he doesn't throw as much as Carson"..

Please.

If you're taking a QB, You take Ben. Why?

1) You don't need half the Offensive Line talent most other teams need (Instance: Browns/Cincy).

He's top 5, top 3, bad year, top 2 in QB Rating.

He makes plays.

If He's in Cincy's offense he makes ALL the same plays that Carson does, and probably even more.

It's not his fault that he was only asked to pass how many times in Bill Cowhers Archaic offense.

Add to the fact that three of his 4 years starting he's been in the playoffs.

How many for Carson. 1. Who beat him? Big Ben and the Steelers.

All Roethlisberger does is win.
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