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View Poll Results: AFC North QB's
Big Ben 38 43.18%
Carson 39 44.32%
Derek Anderson 4 4.55%
Steve McNair 0 0%
Brady Quinn 4 4.55%
Charlie Batch 0 0%
Kyle Boller 1 1.14%
Troy Smith 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-10-2008, 03:17 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
I honestly hope you're kidding =P If you don't think a defense helps a quarterback out you're crazy.

1) Every time Roethlisberger throws an interception his defense has a chance to bail him out. Every time Palmer throws an interception his defense more than likely will not bail him out.

Ben Threw how many INT's to Palmers?

2) A good defense gets the ball back into the QB's hands more often. With the steeler's D, Big Ben will get the ball more often. The more times your offense takes the field, the more times you score, the higher chance you have of winning

Yes.. But we also use a thing called "Ball Control" We don't score immediately so we actualy help our defense. Try it, I'm sure your defensive stats will improve if you can actually dominate TOP.

3) Not only does a good defense get the ball back more often, but it keeps pressure off the QB. How many times do you think Roethlisberger went into the 4th quarter saying "Ok, I've got to win this game for my team". Now, take that same question and apply it to Palmer.

And Ben doesn't have a top 3 WR unit, a top notch offensive line. Sure, he has a great defense.. but at the same time, Carson has perks too. Should we discount Ben because the Steelers defense. Then Discount Carson for having such Talented WR's and Offensive line.

Also, I think people are reading my statements wrong. I think Roethlisberger is an extremely skilled quarterback - I think he has a good chance of getting another superbowl ring, and possibly even go to the HoF.

However, as good as I think Big Ben is, I also think that stats are bogus in this comparison. Its the same stupid argument where people say Marino wasn't the best QB because didn't have a ring. Its not -his- fault he didn't have a ring, getting a ring is a team effort. There is no single person in the history of football who is responsible for a superbowl ring. Its a team collective effort.

Agreed, but the fact remains, and you discount that BEN lead us into the Superbowl. People remember hiw terrible Superbowl performance (As the YOUNGEST QB IN HISTORY in the SUPERBOWL). At the same time, they don't realize that he had an INCREDIBLE post season play to get us there. He threw 1 INT until the superbowl, had 7 TD's to his name. A ridiculously high YPA somewhere around 8.5, AND he beat the 3rd, 2nd and 4th Seeded teams. He lead a charge as the only 6th seed to ever win a spot at the superbowl. He has numerous rookie records for QB's. THe fact is he's smart with the ball. All you've done is tried to discredit Ben meanwhile you make no unbiased views of Carson. Ben has benefitted from a Run game in his first 2 seasons and a good defense. But if you had watched every game last season, especially the 2nd half of the season, you'd realize he had NO OFFENSIVE LINE, NO RUN GAME and the defense fell apart.

When / if Cincinnati pulls through and starts building a defense that isn't terrible, I think you'll see Palmer's stats improve. Unfortunately until then, people are still going to think its Palmer's fault his stats aren't better, or that cinci isn't winning

Everyone else is why Bens so good... but it's everyone else that makes Carson look so bad? He has one of the best WR's in the league in CJ.. a great #2 (Better than some teams #1's) in TJ and he's probably going to get a 1st or 2nd round WR to replace Chris Henry who, when not suspended, was an excellent and tough to match WR.

It's not Bens fault that he's had a decent defense to help him. But he's also been smart with the ball, made good decisions, and led a balanced attack, and led the team with his arm when needed.

The difference is.. Our team tends to strike as quick as possible a few times, then just sit on a lead. Which is why Cowher was something like 140-2-1 when having an 11+pt lead at halftime.

Why do you overlook the offense Ben was instructed to run and ran it to extreme proficiency while your making excuses for Carson?
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:59 AM    (permalink
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Ben Threw how many INT's to Palmers?
I don't get what you're saying here =P

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Yes.. But we also use a thing called "Ball Control" We don't score immediately so we actualy help our defense. Try it, I'm sure your defensive stats will improve if you can actually dominate TOP.
Very hard to do with a terrible running game. This exactly the compare / contrast argument I making. Big Ben can use ball control because of his great running game, Carson cannot.

Quote:
And Ben doesn't have a top 3 WR unit, a top notch offensive line. Sure, he has a great defense.. but at the same time, Carson has perks too. Should we discount Ben because the Steelers defense. Then Discount Carson for having such Talented WR's and Offensive line.
I'm not saying Carson doesn't have a good team around, he just doesn't have AS good of a team. If I write anymore here I'll just be repeating myself, I can basically address this line within your next couple of statements.


Quote:
Agreed, but the fact remains, and you discount that BEN lead us into the Superbowl. People remember hiw terrible Superbowl performance (As the YOUNGEST QB IN HISTORY in the SUPERBOWL). At the same time, they don't realize that he had an INCREDIBLE post season play to get us there. He threw 1 INT until the superbowl, had 7 TD's to his name. A ridiculously high YPA somewhere around 8.5, AND he beat the 3rd, 2nd and 4th Seeded teams. He lead a charge as the only 6th seed to ever win a spot at the superbowl. He has numerous rookie records for QB's. THe fact is he's smart with the ball. All you've done is tried to discredit Ben meanwhile you make no unbiased views of Carson. Ben has benefitted from a Run game in his first 2 seasons and a good defense. But if you had watched every game last season, especially the 2nd half of the season, you'd realize he had NO OFFENSIVE LINE, NO RUN GAME and the defense fell apart.
No one discredits ben for winning a superbowl. Its my philosophy that if you wear a ring, you earned. Even if you're a 3rd string quarterback. But, the facts remain - its not like he carried his team to the superbowl. There is a difference between a prolific passer and a game manager. In 2007, Ben Roethlisberger was a prolific passer, however, in 2004 - he was a game manager (note: I have nothing against game managers, if you'd like proof go read the thread about garrard's new contract in the NFL forums where I defend the 20 million dollars he gets in garunteed money despite being a game manager).

I'll repeat this again though, I've never said ben is a bad quarterback. In fact, he's easily a top 5 QB in this league in my opinion. My only argument here is that I think Carson is a better QB.

Quote:
Everyone else is why Bens so good... but it's everyone else that makes Carson look so bad? He has one of the best WR's in the league in CJ.. a great #2 (Better than some teams #1's) in TJ and he's probably going to get a 1st or 2nd round WR to replace Chris Henry who, when not suspended, was an excellent and tough to match WR.

It's not Bens fault that he's had a decent defense to help him. But he's also been smart with the ball, made good decisions, and led a balanced attack, and led the team with his arm when needed.

The difference is.. Our team tends to strike as quick as possible a few times, then just sit on a lead. Which is why Cowher was something like 140-2-1 when having an 11+pt lead at halftime.

Why do you overlook the offense Ben was instructed to run and ran it to extreme proficiency while your making excuses for Carson?
idk how you can argue receivers. Chad and TJ are great but thats it. No receiver out of the back field, no tight end. 2 options (thats pretty easy to cover). Steelers have Hines Ward, Heath Miller & Santonio Holmes. Its not like Cincinnati had chris henry, he was suspended for half the year.

And again, its not Ben's "fault" that he has a great defense. but its not carson's "fault" that he had a terrible defense either.
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Old 04-10-2008, 06:07 AM    (permalink
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If I'm starting a team from scratch, it's really only Carson or Ben. My pick would go with Carson Palmer, but it's close.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
I honestly hope you're kidding =P If you don't think a defense helps a quarterback out you're crazy.

1) Every time Roethlisberger throws an interception his defense has a chance to bail him out. Every time Palmer throws an interception his defense more than likely will not bail him out.

2) A good defense gets the ball back into the QB's hands more often. With the steeler's D, Big Ben will get the ball more often. The more times your offense takes the field, the more times you score, the higher chance you have of winning

3) Not only does a good defense get the ball back more often, but it keeps pressure off the QB. How many times do you think Roethlisberger went into the 4th quarter saying "Ok, I've got to win this game for my team". Now, take that same question and apply it to Palmer.

Also, I think people are reading my statements wrong. I think Roethlisberger is an extremely skilled quarterback - I think he has a good chance of getting another superbowl ring, and possibly even go to the HoF.

However, as good as I think Big Ben is, I also think that stats are bogus in this comparison. Its the same stupid argument where people say Marino wasn't the best QB because didn't have a ring. Its not -his- fault he didn't have a ring, getting a ring is a team effort. There is no single person in the history of football who is responsible for a superbowl ring. Its a team collective effort.

When / if Cincinnati pulls through and starts building a defense that isn't terrible, I think you'll see Palmer's stats improve. Unfortunately until then, people are still going to think its Palmer's fault his stats aren't better, or that cinci isn't winning
Your missing what is being stated here...the post I was ref: was stated as saying Big Ben has more talent on his Team then Carson does.. and he listed 5 Defensive players... Last time I checked QB's don't throw the ball to defensive players (unless its the goal of the QB to rack up INT's like a madman ????!!?!?) nor is it their job to direct the defense in anyway ? Yes indirectly the Defense helps them out... if we are pulling hairs we can say that Punters are the key asset to the QB because he has the ability to pin the opposing Team's Offense deep in its own territory and giving his Team's Offense better field position when he gets the ball back ?! Come on that is crazy..
Lets be real for just a second about this...as had been said a few times if you put Ben in the system that Carson is in he flourishes more then Carson does... he makes great numbers in the ancient offense he is in (More TD's then Carson did last year mind you)
SO .... you do the math.. how many games has Big Ben won and how many has Carson won ??? (because of him)
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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Ben is a bit overrated, mostly for the fact his recievers are underrated. Along with his good running game, he has a fringe pro bowler in Ward, Holmes is a very good young reciever, and Heath Miller is an absolute beast. He's got a lot of talent alongside him in the offense. Palmer, however, doesn't have much in the way of a running game, or at least nothing compared to Pitts.
so you dont think Palmer is not overrated just dont get that he throws 20 Interceptions had 3 great wide outs decent offensiveline yes he could of had a better run game but if he didnt turn the ball over so much they would have more of a chance to run
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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3 great wide outs? Sorry you guys are sorely mistaken. in 07 Carson has 2 great wide outs (and if you watched every bengals game last year, you saw how terrible Chad is at running routes). Ben had Santonio Holmes, Hines Ward and Health Miller. None of those 2 are as good as TJ or chad (in my opinion) but all 3 of them together are greater than TJ and chad.

I'd take 3 options over 2, any day of the week.
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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It's a hard choice between Palmer and Roethlisberger. Maybe I'm putting on the homer glasses, but I've heard multiple people say (including beat writers for the Bengals,) that Palmer has everything except:

Leadership

When Ocho Cinco gets in his face, does Palmer ever fight back or let him know who is the boss? No. Palmer doesn't have the leadership to really LEAD his team. I think Ben does. Ben does have some injuries, but he is still improving and he is a team leader that is respected in the locker room.
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by toonsterwu View Post
If I'm starting a team from scratch, it's really only Carson or Ben.
Really, in my eyes that's all that needs to be said.

Carson's accuracy/arm are better but I love Ben's elusiveness. As I said, I was more impressed with Ben last year than the SB year.

Pick either one and I can easily see the case. I'd take Carson, why? Because I'm a homer.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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From an outside perspective I'd take Big Ben all day...What hasnt he done to prove he is for real? He led his team to 15 wins as a rookie correct? And people gave the credit to everything else but him, although for a QB so young to play so efficient was amazing enough in itself, but he was labeled game manager...Ok, this year he goes out and the Steelers spread the field like the Patriots, he was winning games on his own, by throwing the ball, and throwing it alot...The offense really opened up, and people give him no credit for it, because nobody thought he had that type of ability.


When he's been healthy, he's put up stats and numbers that rival anyone's in the game, he's a beast to bring down and can even run to get the first down...I really dont see what else he could do to prove himself.


As far as Carson goes, he's obviously top tier of QB's, but what was his excuse for looking so poor this year? Because it wasnt because of injury, he had some games where he just threw way too many picks for my taste...I havent seen him wear his heart on his sleeve the way I've seen Big Ben do, and I haven't seen him play with the same passion on game day either.


Just an outsiders perspective though.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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I don't get what you're saying here =P



Very hard to do with a terrible running game. This exactly the compare / contrast argument I making. Big Ben can use ball control because of his great running game, Carson cannot.



I'm not saying Carson doesn't have a good team around, he just doesn't have AS good of a team. If I write anymore here I'll just be repeating myself, I can basically address this line within your next couple of statements.




No one discredits ben for winning a superbowl. Its my philosophy that if you wear a ring, you earned. Even if you're a 3rd string quarterback. But, the facts remain - its not like he carried his team to the superbowl. There is a difference between a prolific passer and a game manager. In 2007, Ben Roethlisberger was a prolific passer, however, in 2004 - he was a game manager (note: I have nothing against game managers, if you'd like proof go read the thread about garrard's new contract in the NFL forums where I defend the 20 million dollars he gets in garunteed money despite being a game manager).

I'll repeat this again though, I've never said ben is a bad quarterback. In fact, he's easily a top 5 QB in this league in my opinion. My only argument here is that I think Carson is a better QB.



idk how you can argue receivers. Chad and TJ are great but thats it. No receiver out of the back field, no tight end. 2 options (thats pretty easy to cover). Steelers have Hines Ward, Heath Miller & Santonio Holmes. Its not like Cincinnati had chris henry, he was suspended for half the year.

And again, its not Ben's "fault" that he has a great defense. but its not carson's "fault" that he had a terrible defense either.
Ben doesn't have Heath Miller. Heath Miller is too busy blocking DE's to help with our Pathetic OL..

TJ Housh + CJ > Hines+Santonio.

It's not Bens fault he has a Terrible OL, LESS WEAPONS and still outplays Palmer.
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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Carson has 2 great wide outs (and if you watched every bengals game last year, you saw how terrible Chad is at running routes).
Thats the funniest thing I've heard in some time, literally I lol'd at that comment, its funny that now that Chad doesn't want to be in Cincy anymore he cant run routes now...Say what you want about Chad, that he even loses focus, but I cant name 5 WR's that run better routes then Chad does consistently, each week...He's one of the toughest guys to cover in the league period because of how quick he is in and out of his breaks and how sharp his routes are...He is in the same league as Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, and those guys would all say the exact same thing about him if asked.
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Come on now Chad Johnson is good. He double moved the hell out of Hall.

Ben I think is the guys to build a team around, but then again you can't go wrong with Carson.
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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I don't get what you're saying here =P



Very hard to do with a terrible running game. This exactly the compare / contrast argument I making. Big Ben can use ball control because of his great running game, Carson cannot.

Ben had the leading rusher in the league, but Willie Parker was being called overrated because they were pushing him to run nearly 25-28 times a game. We didn't have a great running game. In fact, our running game was on par with yours. Not to mention the fact we have 1/2 the OLine you do.

I'm not saying Carson doesn't have a good team around, he just doesn't have AS good of a team. If I write anymore here I'll just be repeating myself, I can basically address this line within your next couple of statements.

As good a team? You mentino Heath Miller. If you had watched 90% of the games, you'll see Heath spending about 85% of the time blocking because our piss-poor excuse for an offensive line can't pass or run block to save their life.


No one discredits ben for winning a superbowl. Its my philosophy that if you wear a ring, you earned. Even if you're a 3rd string quarterback. But, the facts remain - its not like he carried his team to the superbowl. There is a difference between a prolific passer and a game manager. In 2007, Ben Roethlisberger was a prolific passer, however, in 2004 - he was a game manager (note: I have nothing against game managers, if you'd like proof go read the thread about garrard's new contract in the NFL forums where I defend the 20 million dollars he gets in garunteed money despite being a game manager).

Game Manager? It's not like he carried his team to the superbowl? Did you watch ANY of the post-season for the 2005 Steelers?!?!

3 post season games:

Roethlisberger: 49/72 68% passing, 680 yards, 9.44 YPA, 7 Passing TD's, 1 Rushing TD, 1 INT.

I don't see how thats Game Managing. Add to the fact "The Tackle", Ben got us to the superbowl. And the team finally rose to the occasion and took themselves off his shoulders.

Oh the QB rating of those 3 games? 122.96

Eli Mannings Post season was considered "Prolific".. Let see how he measured..

this was when Eli was 27, not 23.. and against Weaker Competition. His 3 games to the Superbowl..

53/85 62% 599 yards, 7.04 YPA, 4 Passing TDs, 0 INT's, 107.2...

So Was Eli's and most QB's post-seasons no prolific, or do you accept Ben as a prolific Passer, even though He doesn't have the yardage.

Another issue in this "Game Manager" Conversation is.. People ignore the YPA value.

"He doesn't throw 25-30+ Times a game" or "He doesn't have 4000+ Yards". Yeah, but look how far on average he attempted to throw the ball.

Not until this year did Tom Brady's YPA average go above 8 and plenty of his seasons were under 7 Yards per attempt.



I'll repeat this again though, I've never said ben is a bad quarterback. In fact, he's easily a top 5 QB in this league in my opinion. My only argument here is that I think Carson is a better QB.



idk how you can argue receivers. Chad and TJ are great but thats it. No receiver out of the back field, no tight end. 2 options (thats pretty easy to cover). Steelers have Hines Ward, Heath Miller & Santonio Holmes. Its not like Cincinnati had chris henry, he was suspended for half the year.

Who do we have out of the backfield? I'll openly admit that Willie Parker is by far the worst receiving RB in the league. And for the 3rd time. Heath Miller isn't a weapon in our offense. He's an extension of the offensive line that rarely gets to go out for passes.

he probably had less targets than Henry had. Henry still managed 422 yards in 8 games. Which when you think about it.. is more than Miller averaged.

You should really be looking at Chad + TJ vs Hines and Santonio. You guys win that battle.

Not to mention, Carson Palmer wasn't sacked 47 times (and more if Ben wasn't the toughest QB to tackle).


And again, its not Ben's "fault" that he has a great defense. but its not carson's "fault" that he had a terrible defense either.

Again. we may have a better defense, but Carson has better WR & OL talent. which can inflate his stats way better than Bens.

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Old 04-11-2008, 02:01 AM    (permalink
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Thats the funniest thing I've heard in some time, literally I lol'd at that comment, its funny that now that Chad doesn't want to be in Cincy anymore he cant run routes now...Say what you want about Chad, that he even loses focus, but I cant name 5 WR's that run better routes then Chad does consistently, each week...He's one of the toughest guys to cover in the league period because of how quick he is in and out of his breaks and how sharp his routes are...He is in the same league as Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Steve Smith, and those guys would all say the exact same thing about him if asked.
I love Chad to death, and I don't ever want him to leave cinci - I don't run around with "Chad Johnson is dead to me" sigs. And chad before 07 could run routes - but if you watched 07, like I said before, he was constantly off his mark and Carson threw bad passes because of it.

I mean, do you honestly think that its coincidence that the majority of the time palmer threw the ball to TJ, he completed it - but when he threw the ball to chad there were lots of in completions and interceptions?

I think this year, he just wasn't focused on the game and it hurt Palmer's stats more than his. I want chad to get his yellow Mohawk back and go back to doing end zone dances :)
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:17 AM    (permalink
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Ben had the leading rusher in the league, but Willie Parker was being called overrated because they were pushing him to run nearly 25-28 times a game. We didn't have a great running game. In fact, our running game was on par with yours. Not to mention the fact we have 1/2 the OLine you do.
There is no way steeler's running game was "on par" with bengals.

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Game Manager? It's not like he carried his team to the superbowl? Did you watch ANY of the post-season for the 2005 Steelers?!?!

3 post season games:

Roethlisberger: 49/72 68% passing, 680 yards, 9.44 YPA, 7 Passing TD's, 1 Rushing TD, 1 INT.

I don't see how thats Game Managing. Add to the fact "The Tackle", Ben got us to the superbowl. And the team finally rose to the occasion and took themselves off his shoulders.

Oh the QB rating of those 3 games? 122.96

Eli Mannings Post season was considered "Prolific".. Let see how he measured..

this was when Eli was 27, not 23.. and against Weaker Competition. His 3 games to the Superbowl..

53/85 62% 599 yards, 7.04 YPA, 4 Passing TDs, 0 INT's, 107.2...

So Was Eli's and most QB's post-seasons no prolific, or do you accept Ben as a prolific Passer, even though He doesn't have the yardage.

Another issue in this "Game Manager" Conversation is.. People ignore the YPA value.

"He doesn't throw 25-30+ Times a game" or "He doesn't have 4000+ Yards". Yeah, but look how far on average he attempted to throw the ball.

Not until this year did Tom Brady's YPA average go above 8 and plenty of his seasons were under 7 Yards per attempt.
Alright, we can stop this part of the argument right here because its obvious we're arguing different things. Big Ben did have a pretty incredible post-season performance his rookie year. But what I was talking about was from week 1 to the superbowl, and I think he was more of a game manager on average. Again, I think we can both agree his 17 TDs and 11 INts with only 2400 yards and less than 300 attempts makes him a game manager his rookie year. And I agree, he wasn't a game manager when the post season came.

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Who do we have out of the backfield? I'll openly admit that Willie Parker is by far the worst receiving RB in the league. And for the 3rd time. Heath Miller isn't a weapon in our offense. He's an extension of the offensive line that rarely gets to go out for passes.

he probably had less targets than Henry had. Henry still managed 422 yards in 8 games. Which when you think about it.. is more than Miller averaged.

You should really be looking at Chad + TJ vs Hines and Santonio. You guys win that battle.

Not to mention, Carson Palmer wasn't sacked 47 times (and more if Ben wasn't the toughest QB to tackle).
Actually, our offensive line was bruised up and 2 of our best players were benched (Levi Jones and Willie Anderson) through out the year. Carson had a lot of pressure from defensive lines, but like I said in my first reply here - Carson has a quick release and he think fasts. This is actually one of the main reasons I think Carson could be the best QB in the league one day.
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Old 04-11-2008, 02:22 AM    (permalink
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1) Carson: The best combination of Talent, Experience, and age out of the choices.

2) Quinn: I was very high on Quinn coming out of college. He's still very young, and very talented.

3) Anderson: I was one of roughly two people who called Anderson being a successful starter in the NFL. He'll always have a fairly high INT total, but he'll also throw a ton of TDs with them.

4) Roethlisberger: To be honest, I'm shocked he's still a functional human being. He gets sacked once every 10 drop backs. That's not including his rushing attempts and times he gets knocked down. He'll give you a few good years, but he's become a concussion case pretty soon.

5) Batch: functional starter.

6) McNair: functional mentor.

7) Smith: stop gap QB

8) Boller: functional backup.
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Old 04-11-2008, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Dude... I used to despise Big Ben and think he was extremely overrated but last year he proved he can bring it. So obviously I'm not an apologist.

Anyway, Anderson has had ONE good year (in which he bombed in the end). For anyone to want him over Ben - long or short term - is just out there. Too many times I've seen the Bengals actually generate a pass rush only to have Ben escape it. The guys mobility, IMO, is his best asset.

Can't believe I'm taking up for him lol.
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Old 04-11-2008, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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But Brady Quinn is better then Big Ben, the Quinn who has never taken a snap in a real nfl game...He must of been excellent in that pre season lmao.
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Old 04-11-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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But Brady Quinn is better then Big Ben, the Quinn who has never taken a snap in a real nfl game...He must of been excellent in that pre season lmao.
I'm doing it based off the prospect of looking for the long term. Ben Roethlisberger has already had multiple concussions, and being thrown behind a brand new team a la the Texans isn't going to help him there. It's not that he's not a good player, I just don't think he'd survive a situation like that. I thought Quinn and Anderson were going to be starter quality QBs in the NFL when they came out of college, and they have significantly less wear and tear than Roethlisberger. Once you've had a major concussion, you become more and more prone to have another. Ben's already had two major concusions, and lord knows how many minor ones by now, add on top of that the other numerous injuries he's suffered, and I don't think he's going to be an effective starter for more than 2 or 3 more years at the rate he's getting knocked down. I'd rather have a functional starter who'll still be playing in 4 years when the team is built up, than a good starter who'll be slurring his speech in 4 years.
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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I'm doing it based off the prospect of looking for the long term. Ben Roethlisberger has already had multiple concussions, and being thrown behind a brand new team a la the Texans isn't going to help him there. It's not that he's not a good player, I just don't think he'd survive a situation like that. I thought Quinn and Anderson were going to be starter quality QBs in the NFL when they came out of college, and they have significantly less wear and tear than Roethlisberger. Once you've had a major concussion, you become more and more prone to have another. Ben's already had two major concusions, and lord knows how many minor ones by now, add on top of that the other numerous injuries he's suffered, and I don't think he's going to be an effective starter for more than 2 or 3 more years at the rate he's getting knocked down. I'd rather have a functional starter who'll still be playing in 4 years when the team is built up, than a good starter who'll be slurring his speech in 4 years.
Um.

Ben has had 2 Concussions. 1 was from an illegal hit in Atlanta that the refs convieniently didn't call, and the other was a Car. I really don't see any type of pattern.

Add the fact if your talking about putting him behind Houstons OL. Why would you even consider Palmer, Anderson or Quinn, None of those guys have Bens Escapability and ability to make something out of nothing.

Add to the fact that if you put those 4 behind a "Houston" OL Ben is probably the Only one to make it to Game 4.
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:26 AM    (permalink
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I'm doing it based off the prospect of looking for the long term. Ben Roethlisberger has already had multiple concussions, and being thrown behind a brand new team a la the Texans isn't going to help him there. It's not that he's not a good player, I just don't think he'd survive a situation like that. I thought Quinn and Anderson were going to be starter quality QBs in the NFL when they came out of college, and they have significantly less wear and tear than Roethlisberger. Once you've had a major concussion, you become more and more prone to have another. Ben's already had two major concusions, and lord knows how many minor ones by now, add on top of that the other numerous injuries he's suffered, and I don't think he's going to be an effective starter for more than 2 or 3 more years at the rate he's getting knocked down. I'd rather have a functional starter who'll still be playing in 4 years when the team is built up, than a good starter who'll be slurring his speech in 4 years.

You usually make alot of great post that I enjoy, but its just ignorant to place Brady Quinn above Big Ben, plain ignorant...Quinn wasnt even drafted as high as Big Ben was, so what has he actually accomplished other then being a 1st rd pick? Why would you even include a ranking system with one qb who hasnt taken a snap yet vs one who has had very good seasons and won a super bowl?
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Old 04-12-2008, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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Um.

Ben has had 2 Concussions. 1 was from an illegal hit in Atlanta that the refs convieniently didn't call, and the other was a Car. I really don't see any type of pattern.

Add the fact if your talking about putting him behind Houstons OL. Why would you even consider Palmer, Anderson or Quinn, None of those guys have Bens Escapability and ability to make something out of nothing.

Add to the fact that if you put those 4 behind a "Houston" OL Ben is probably the Only one to make it to Game 4.
You've just proven how little you pay attention to other QB's in the AFC north. Do you honestly think cincinnati has some sick-awesome great line, especially with 2 of our best offensive linemen injured? Carson had 17 sacks because 1) he has a quick release & 2) He makes quick decisions (although, not always the most intelligent - 20 INT =/). Ben avoids the rush with his legs, and he's really good at it. but carson avoids the rush too, he just does it with his arm.
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:13 AM    (permalink
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Um.

Ben has had 2 Concussions. 1 was from an illegal hit in Atlanta that the refs convieniently didn't call, and the other was a Car. I really don't see any type of pattern.
Concussions stack. Each concussion makes you more likely to have another. and makes the effects of the next one worse. Furthermore, concussions destroy more QBs careers than any other injury. I'd rather have my QB have Carson Palmer's O'Donahugh Triad than Ben's Concussions. It doesn't matter how you get your concussions, weather it's from a car or illegal hit, it's unimportant because the damage is already done. A few more concussions, and he'll wind up like Al Toon, where he'll sneeze and forget the last week.

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Add the fact if your talking about putting him behind Houstons OL. Why would you even consider Palmer, Anderson or Quinn, None of those guys have Bens Escapability and ability to make something out of nothing.

Add to the fact that if you put those 4 behind a "Houston" OL Ben is probably the Only one to make it to Game 4.
It doesn't matter who you stick behind an expansion O-Line. They're going to get sacked. Ben already has had 146 sacks, Palmer only has 97, Derek Anderson only has 22, Brady Quinn has none. None of the other three have any major injury concerns. Roethlisberger has 2 major concussions, and numerous other minor injuries.

You also forget that Roethlisberger brings alot of those sacks on himself, by hanging onto the ball to long. In 404 attempts, he was sacked 47 times. 10.4% of his pass attempts ended with him getting sacked, that's not counting all the times he gets hit as he releases, or the hits he takes running the ball. He's taking a running back calibur beating, and that's not what a teams needs when it's building for the future. Behind the same Oline, Charlie Batch attempted 37 passes. Roethlisberger would have been sacked nearly 4 times in that span. Batch never got touched. Roethlisberger always gets sacked more often that the other QBs on the Steelers, who thanks to the injuries those sacks incur, always get enough snaps to make a good analysis.

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You usually make alot of great post that I enjoy, but its just ignorant to place Brady Quinn above Big Ben, plain ignorant...Quinn wasnt even drafted as high as Big Ben was, so what has he actually accomplished other then being a 1st rd pick? Why would you even include a ranking system with one qb who hasnt taken a snap yet vs one who has had very good seasons and won a super bowl?
Well, I think Quinn has a lot of potential. And some people agree with me. Scott Wright said that Quinn was one of the top 4 QB prospects he's ever seen. Quinn also doesn't have Roethlisberger's history of injuries. Which is paramount when starting a new team. Every player is going to take a massive beating, and if they're already fragile, they aren't going to make it. You could have Rod Woodson and Deon Sanders in their prime, but if they're both on IR, you're better off with Jason David.

And you can't simply compare draft position like that. It's a different class, and teams had different needs.
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Old 04-13-2008, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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This isn't even close.. Carson is by far and away the best in the AFC North.. It's not his fault his defense is god awful, compared to Benny's.

Derek Anderson is pretty solid too.. He has a lot of potential..
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:38 AM    (permalink
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I had to vote for Carson because the guy I'd take over any of them wasn't available.........

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