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AFC North Division Forum Discuss the AFC North

View Poll Results: AFC North QB's
Big Ben 38 43.18%
Carson 39 44.32%
Derek Anderson 4 4.55%
Steve McNair 0 0%
Brady Quinn 4 4.55%
Charlie Batch 0 0%
Kyle Boller 1 1.14%
Troy Smith 2 2.27%
Voters: 88. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-10-2008, 12:02 PM    (permalink
BamaFalcon59
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Originally Posted by Bengalsrocket View Post
Carson is more fundamentally sound then any other QB in the league imo. He's got a great arm, very good accuracy, quick release and great footwork. Had he not gotten his knee destroyed its very possible cincinnati went to the SB that year.

Big Ben has the ring, but that doesn't make him the best. Is Chad and TJ a better WR tandem than Ward / Holmes? Yes. But I think its clear Big Ben has the better D to get him the ball more often and the better running game to compliment him.

People act like Big Ben was some stud when he went to the SB. They basically just ran the ball every play that year, and only asked him to pull it off when it was in favor of the passing game.

Carson has the pressure to pass on more downs than big ben, and thus makes more mistakes. Heres a break down:

Starting @ 04 -

Big Ben:

04, 295 attempts
05, 268 attempts
06, 469 attempts
07, 404 attempts

total = 1436
Carson:

04, 432 attempts
05, 509 attempts
06, 520 attempts
07, 575 attempts

total = 2036

Its not even a comparison how little big ben is needed in pitts verse how much carson is needed in cincinnati. Being surrounded by a great team does not make you a better player.
And the season where he had the most attempts is also the one he struggled the most in.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ChefMike View Post
I clearly listed the Passing Attempts... and remarked to the fact that if Big Ben threw as many times as Carson did... his stats would be better and he would have thrown 45 TDs ?!?! Big Ben threw a TD on average of every 12.6 throws... Carson ???... every 22 throws... so if the production came down to numbers Big Ben is going to blow him away.. but if you look at leadership.. Ok Hines Ward is probably a better leader than Ocho Cinco... but if you took Big Ben and moved him to a different Team and put an average QB in there like a Jake Delhomme or Jon Kitna you think that Pittsburgh is going to do just as well because of the system ? If thats the case than your saying anyone can win in Pittsburgh ?? I can't agree with that statement... Big Ben is a young Brett Favre and Carson is more like Mark Rypien !!! If Rypien wouldnt have had the great players around him he would have never won a Super Bowl...
Did you know that if you give Jerious Norwood twenty carries a game it comes out to 1984 yards? 1984 is also the name of a movie. Damn he must be good. He'd be a great feature back wouldn't he? If you give him the same amount of carries that Larry Johnson had in 2006 he averages out to 2,579 yards, easily breaking the rushing record. WOW!

Too bad Norwood is not that type of back, he is best when he can take advantage of the defense being tierd, just like Roethlisberger is at best when he is off of playaction from the running game.
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Old 05-10-2008, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Angry HUH????????????????????????

HOW is Carson higher in the voting?
He has had a great line (2-3 probowlers), a great RB(probowl 1500yds consistantly), and Great Recievers (both probowlers) throughout his career. NO Superbowl Either!!!!!
20 INTs last year. Ben threw 23 when he was plagued by injurues all year but other than that he was 98 passer-rating or higher every year.

Ben has had a O-Line who cant protect him, and decent recievers. If not for the running game he mite be getting hit every play.
What QB goes undefeated his rookie regular season? Then wins the superbowl next year? He made the probowl team this year and put up better numbers than any QB not named Tom Brady. He is obviously a special QB.

I'm startin to think guys on here just don't kno what they're talkin bout

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Old 05-12-2008, 06:58 AM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong because Big Ben has been good by me since playing at Miami of Ohio, but he has also had a dominant defense to support him as well. He has had WR's to throw to and a running game. The o-line he has had can hardly be called anything but solid, if not better. The last Super Bowl the Steelers won was "In spite" of the play from Big Ben. Once again, I am a fan, but if the Steelers lost that game, it would have been solely from the poor play of Big Ben.

As for Carson, let him have the advantage of something as decent as a #15 defense and see what happens. He's had to go out and play knowing the defense backing him was always one of the worst or THE WORST. Just pointing that out...
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Old 05-12-2008, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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HOW is Carson higher in the voting?
He has had a great line (2-3 probowlers), a great RB(probowl 1500yds consistantly), and Great Recievers (both probowlers) throughout his career. NO Superbowl Either!!!!!
20 INTs last year. Ben threw 23 when he was plagued by injurues all year but other than that he was 98 passer-rating or higher every year.

Ben has had a O-Line who cant protect him, and decent recievers. If not for the running game he mite be getting hit every play.
What QB goes undefeated his rookie regular season? Then wins the superbowl next year? He made the probowl team this year and put up better numbers than any QB not named Tom Brady. He is obviously a special QB.

I'm startin to think guys on here just don't kno what they're talkin bout
Im startin to think you don't know what your talking about.

Last year Carson Palmer's Oline was plagued with injuries. He had no run game at all and the defense had Carson throwing all day because they couldn't keep points off the board.

BTW Big Ben didn't get his team to the superbowl by himself. A good oline and good defense got them there. Not him.
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Im startin to think you don't know what your talking about.

Last year Carson Palmer's Oline was plagued with injuries. He had no run game at all and the defense had Carson throwing all day because they couldn't keep points off the board.

BTW Big Ben didn't get his team to the superbowl by himself. A good oline and good defense got them there. Not him.
Pittsburghs Oline was plagued with injuries... 45+ sacks not to mention how many sacks Big Ben escaped from.
Bengals Oline gave up how many sacks??? it was well under 30
So don't give me that crap

Cinci averaged 97 yards rushing per game which is a lot more than no running game.

HOW in the world r u gonna blame their offensive woes on poor defense. That makes Zero sense... Peyton Manning and the Colts had no problems putting up points when they had the worst D in the League year in and year out.

Big Ben most definately got his team to the SB. Look at his games against the Bengals, Broncos, and Colts. They came out passing and played very well. Ben did not rely on the running game or the Defense to put up points. He did it himself.

He did have a poor game against the Seahawks. I won't argue that. But he was the youngest QB ever to win a SB.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Pittsburghs Oline was plagued with injuries... 45+ sacks not to mention how many sacks Big Ben escaped from.
Bengals Oline gave up how many sacks??? it was well under 30
So don't give me that crap

Cinci averaged 97 yards rushing per game which is a lot more than no running game.

HOW in the world r u gonna blame their offensive woes on poor defense. That makes Zero sense... Peyton Manning and the Colts had no problems putting up points when they had the worst D in the League year in and year out.

Big Ben most definately got his team to the SB. Look at his games against the Bengals, Broncos, and Colts. They came out passing and played very well. Ben did not rely on the running game or the Defense to put up points. He did it himself.

He did have a poor game against the Seahawks. I won't argue that. But he was the youngest QB ever to win a SB.
Roethlisburger may escape some sacks, but he also holds on to the ball to long and causes many of them.
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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That Super Bowl was won IN SPITE of Big Ben. Nothing more, nothing less. I say this as a fan of Big Ben since his Miami of Ohio days, so I don't want to hear it. He may be the youngest QB to win the Super Bowl, but he needs to thank his defense for that. Oh by the way, he also posted the lowest QB rating in Super Bowl history as well.
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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If it wasnt for ben the steelers never make the superbowl. Look at the playoff games leading up to the superbowl. He played great and threw the ball to put up points early and let the run game protect the lead. Your team has to throw the ball more when you are losing. Ever think the fact that he's efficent in the first half and gets a lead could cut his attempts?

And add that to the season he had last year and I'll take him over any other a QB in this division. Let's see Carson play without CJ this year. I'm expecting his productivity to drop.

As to Anderson, let's see him do it again. Many QBs have good first years because defenses don't know how to play them. If he has another year like this year I'll buy that he is more than just an above average QB.
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Is this really argument anymore as to who the better QB is between Big Ben and Carson? Carson may have Pro Bowl WR's and Pro Bowl OL(oft injured) but he doesn't have the one thing that means the most: A DEFENSE. Without a defense he has done better than Ben in almost every category throughout his career. This past season was terrible on all fronts and he still managed to have a somewhat decent season. And don't even give me the Super Bowl argument at all. What was his Passer Rating in that game? How many throws did he average a game that season? Exactly, he was a game manager. I will admit he has grown into a much better overall player but he walked into a perfect situation when he was a rookie and during the Super Bowl run.

Carson has always been asked to do much more than Ben has and he has been very successful for the most part.
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Old 05-14-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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Give me Carson Palmer. He may be 2 years older than Roethlisberger, but is a top3 passing QB. Great arm (amazing deep ball), good accuracy, great footwork and release, great leadership.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Carson is so overrated at this point. Great leadership? Is that even worth explaining why that's not true? He has no control. His #1 wr hates him and he can't lead at team to anything. And those 20 ints show great accuracy.

Carson palmer will never win a superbowl. Hell he probably won't ever win a playoff game. He'll have another below average season and people will finally realise how overrated he is.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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came down to ben and carson for me...i went ben because superbowl rings do talk and he has been overall move impressive i think.

cant go wrong with carson though either
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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His number 1 WR is a ***** who doesnt realize what an amazing situation he is in. Thats what who number 1 WR is.

And are you honestly going to point to the number of his interceptions for his accuracy? They cant be dropped balls or bad decisions? How about trying to catch up to the other team because his defense sucks balls? No. He probably missed the guy he was trying to get by 5 yards and a defender picked it off.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Carson palmer will never win a superbowl. Hell he probably won't ever win a playoff game. He'll have another below average season and people will finally realise how overrated he is.
Except that he's never had a below average season. 2007 was the first above average season that Roethlisberger has had.
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Old 05-14-2008, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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20 ints is not below average? Sure.

And while that was bens most productive year, it was also the only season he was actually given control of the offense and stayed healthy.

Ben will outplay palmer again this season. Mark it down
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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Carson is so overrated at this point. Great leadership? Is that even worth explaining why that's not true? He has no control. His #1 wr hates him and he can't lead at team to anything. And those 20 ints show great accuracy.

Carson palmer will never win a superbowl. Hell he probably won't ever win a playoff game. He'll have another below average season and people will finally realise how overrated he is.
Carson Palmer will actually WIN a Super Bowl instead of being the 3rd coming of Trent Dilfer.
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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If it wasnt for ben the steelers never make the superbowl. Look at the playoff games leading up to the superbowl. He played great and threw the ball to put up points early and let the run game protect the lead. Your team has to throw the ball more when you are losing. Ever think the fact that he's efficent in the first half and gets a lead could cut his attempts?

And add that to the season he had last year and I'll take him over any other a QB in this division. Let's see Carson play without CJ this year. I'm expecting his productivity to drop.

As to Anderson, let's see him do it again. Many QBs have good first years because defenses don't know how to play them. If he has another year like this year I'll buy that he is more than just an above average QB.
lol ever think efficient isnt enough? ever think he never had to throw to win games? ever think he defense held the opponents to low scores and the run game took over? ever see the steelers record when big ben attempts 30+ passes a game before his last season?

roethlisberger only showed of becoming a franchise QB this last year, where he was spectacular. palmer has been doing it since the year he started.
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Old 05-15-2008, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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#1. I never made mention that Ben didn't lead his team through the playoffs and yes, he played very well.
#2. Yes, Ben had the lowest passer rating for a QB in Super Bowl history.
#3. Yes, Ben has had a STELLAR defense all these years (See #1 rated defense last season)
#4. Yes, Ben walked into a great situation where the Steelers has a running game, a WR corps, and a super defense. Wow, must of been rough for him...
#5. I'm not arguing who the better QB is, because I am a fan of BOTH.

All of that being said, Ben is and has been in a better situation as a starting QB since the day he got into Pittsburgh. That's not a slap on him, just an observation. He never had to be the one person the team relied upon to rebuild the team. Carson is still waiting.

I all honesty, I think there are a handful of QBs in the league right now, if placed in the same situation that Ben was placed in (run game, WR's, great defense) would probably end up in the Super Bowl as well.

Be honest and stop being such a blind homer... It's nothing more than giving credit where credit is due, but in my opinion that credit belongs mostly to the Steelers organization as a whole for having better than average drafts and having great coaching and ownership. Ben is a product of their hard work and I am happy for him, but please don't argue that he was SOOOOO GREAT in that Super Bowl game. I'm a fan of his and as a fan I am more than ok saying he sucks great big monkey balls in that game and had they lost, he would have been the sole reason...
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Old 05-15-2008, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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No one has ever said he played anything better than awful in the superbowl.

And i hate when people discredit ben because of his good team. No one ever takes away from Brady and manning for their great supporting casts.

Even with the best supporting cast the qb still has to execute. Maddox had the same situation as ben the year before ben was drafted and he went 6-10.

Ben will have had a better career when its all said and done.
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Old 05-15-2008, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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Carson Palmer, 10 times out of 10. No question in my mind.

I could rehash every argument that has already been said, but there is no point. Carson Palmer is the better QB, and he will not only win a playoff game, but if they fix that defense (which it looks like they're doing) he'll win a superbowl, not just manage one.
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Old 05-15-2008, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Ben will have had a better career when its all said and done.
agree to disagree. It really is a treat to watch them go up against each other twice a year.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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No one has ever said he played anything better than awful in the superbowl.

And i hate when people discredit ben because of his good team. No one ever takes away from Brady and manning for their great supporting casts.

Even with the best supporting cast the qb still has to execute. Maddox had the same situation as ben the year before ben was drafted and he went 6-10.

Ben will have had a better career when its all said and done.
In response to the bolded area... I'm not "discrediting" Ben because of his supporting cast, I'm just making an OBVIOUS observation that his situation is FAR different than that of most other QB's (and Carson) in that he walked into a great situation. Ben is a very good QB and yes, you still need to execute in order to win.

That being said, was Dilfer that great of a QB when Baltimore won the Super Bowl ?? NO. As a matter of fact, most people think he sucks. FACT is that great defenses have a HUGE impact on their respective QBs. If your defense can keep the opposition from scoring, it allows the QB more opportunites and for young QB's, it's a gift from heaven (See Ben)...

Brady and Manning are ELITE quarterbacks and while I think both Ben and Carson are very good, neither one would be considered elite in my book. That may change, but I just can't say it at this time. Once again, I am a fan of both QB's, so don't let the fact that I am a Bengals fan make you twist stuff into your own perspective...
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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I realize Ben has had more team success recently, but for me, it's Carson. I fear going against Carson more than any other quarterback in the division and I believe he's the best.
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Old 05-18-2008, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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In response to the bolded area... I'm not "discrediting" Ben because of his supporting cast, I'm just making an OBVIOUS observation that his situation is FAR different than that of most other QB's (and Carson) in that he walked into a great situation. Ben is a very good QB and yes, you still need to execute in order to win.

That being said, was Dilfer that great of a QB when Baltimore won the Super Bowl ?? NO. As a matter of fact, most people think he sucks. FACT is that great defenses have a HUGE impact on their respective QBs. If your defense can keep the opposition from scoring, it allows the QB more opportunites and for young QB's, it's a gift from heaven (See Ben)...

Brady and Manning are ELITE quarterbacks and while I think both Ben and Carson are very good, neither one would be considered elite in my book. That may change, but I just can't say it at this time. Once again, I am a fan of both QB's, so don't let the fact that I am a Bengals fan make you twist stuff into your own perspective...
Theres always the Trent Dilfer argument and that worked well for Ben's first two years where I think everyone will agree he wasn't asked to do nearly all the things most QBs have to do.

But Trent Dilfer never had a season like the one Ben had last year. Ben played amazing last year and was the reason we had 10 wins. With one of the worst lines I have ever seen from a Steelers team Ben had his best season. He completely ran the offense. Another year in the new system and added talent, Ben should do even better.

After they're both done, people will regard Ben as a better QB.
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