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Old 02-20-2007, 01:20 PM    (permalink
yourfavestoner
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Default Small Market Economics

I don't mean for this to be a Jaguars-only thread, as this is a league-wide issue. It's just that this particular article happens to be Jaguars related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gene Frenette
Jaguars' real concern is economics


By GENE FRENETTE, The Times-Union

Jaguars fans would prefer to read about which players the team intends to pursue in free agency, who the starting quarterback will be next season, or likely targets with the 17th overall pick in the NFL draft.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I want to touch on an underplayed subject with bigger long-term implications - Jacksonville's ability to survive in a 32-team economic jungle.

This is a convoluted and unpopular issue because nobody supporting a family on a $40,000 salary wants to hear about NFL owners and players fighting to divide billions of dollars.

But if Jaguars fans want to know why there's been speculation about the team moving, or why season-ticket prices are seemingly taking an excessive jump, then it's important to understand Jacksonville's status on the NFL money landscape.

The Jaguars finished 27th in the league last year in average ticket price ($45), which is a bigger bargain when you consider that includes 11,200 club seats - among the NFL's highest number of premium seats - into the calculation. This year, the Jaguars' average price will increase to $50, far below the league average of $63.

Before 46,000 season-ticket renewals accuse the Jaguars of a senseless money grab, they need to know that owner Wayne Weaver is merely trying to keep pace with a money train that is putting small-market teams at a competitive disadvantage.

Many thought it became a non-issue when a new Collective Bargaining Agreement was signed last year, but the truth is NFL owners still haven't agreed on a revenue-sharing formula.

"It's hard to get into these discussions because it comes across as whining," said Tim Connolly, the Jaguars' Senior Vice-President of Business Development. "The NFL agreed to give the players 59.5 percent of the league's average revenue, but it's not the same amount of the pie for everybody."

By Connolly's estimation, the Jaguars' player salaries eat up 65-70 percent of the team's overall revenues, compared to 40-45 percent for the Washington Redskins and New England Patriots. That's a lot more cash high-revenue clubs have to throw around in signing bonuses than Jacksonville.

Unless the NFL evens the playing field with a sound revenue-sharing plan, the Jaguars may eventually field weaker rosters.

Consider this: the Jaguars received $620,000 per year from Alltel for the stadium naming rights, which have expired, while the Patriots pocket $8 million per year from Gillette.

Right now, the Jaguars are struggling to find a new stadium sponsor for even half of what the Patriots are getting.

That 28-3 playoff rout New England put on the Jaguars two years ago is nothing compared to the money gap between them. The Patriots even have naming rights on their parking lot. Ford puts brand names of its cars there, reportedly at a price higher than what the Jaguars may command in a new stadium deal.

The Patriots are so shrewd at marketing, you wonder if they'll try to sell the naming rights to Tom Brady's baby.

Here's the economic reality: until Jacksonville's population and income rises significantly, the Jaguars will be in a money crunch.

Pay attention, Jaguars fans. When this franchise will return to being a Super Bowl contender is far from its only worry.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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So what does this atricle really saying? The NFL screwed up when even putting a team in Jacksonville in the first place?
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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No offense to Jag's fans, but there's no way the expansion should've landed in Jax over Baltimore. It was a disgrace and a total hose-job. That said, I love my Ravens.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10
So what does this atricle really saying? The NFL screwed up when even putting a team in Jacksonville in the first place?
You could certainly make that case, as Jacksonville is the league's smallest market and has the smallest fan base. However, it usually takes generations for a team and a city to establish a bond that results in a large and dedicated fan base. I also think the fact that the Jaguars have been able to sell out their stadium, despite having the smallest market and fan base, is a testament to the people of Jacksonville, as they have a much smaller pool of fans to work with. The biggest mistake they made when putting a team in Jacksonville was making the stadium far too large to sell out in a small market.

Like I said, this isn't a Jaguars-only issue. There are a number small market teams around the league who have this same problem.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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How does Jacksonville have a franchise and LA dosen't?
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10
So what does this atricle really saying? The NFL screwed up when even putting a team in Jacksonville in the first place?
You could certainly make that case, as Jacksonville is the league's smallest market and has the smallest fan base. However, it usually takes generations for a team and a city to establish a bond that results in a large and dedicated fan base. I also think the fact that the Jaguars have been able to sell out their stadium, despite having the smallest market and fan base, is a testament to the people of Jacksonville, as they have a much smaller pool of fans to work with. The biggest mistake they made when putting a team in Jacksonville was making the stadium far too large to sell out in a small market.

Like I said, this isn't a Jaguars-only issue. There are a number small market teams around the league who have this same problem.
Didn't the Jaguars have to take a couple thousand seats out of the stadium so they could sell it out and air the games on TV in Jacksonville beacuse of the blackout rules?
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitleTown088
How does Jacksonville have a franchise and LA dosen't?
Because Los Angeles had an opportunity with two franchises and failed with both, and refuses to build new facilities for an NFL franchise.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10
Quote:
Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10
So what does this atricle really saying? The NFL screwed up when even putting a team in Jacksonville in the first place?
You could certainly make that case, as Jacksonville is the league's smallest market and has the smallest fan base. However, it usually takes generations for a team and a city to establish a bond that results in a large and dedicated fan base. I also think the fact that the Jaguars have been able to sell out their stadium, despite having the smallest market and fan base, is a testament to the people of Jacksonville, as they have a much smaller pool of fans to work with. The biggest mistake they made when putting a team in Jacksonville was making the stadium far too large to sell out in a small market.

Like I said, this isn't a Jaguars-only issue. There are a number small market teams around the league who have this same problem.
Didn't the Jaguars have to take a couple thousand seats out of the stadium so they could sell it out and air the games on TV in Jacksonville beacuse of the blackout rules?
I've seen several Jaguars game with a tarp over seats......no way have they sold out all those seats.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10
Quote:
Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jughead10
So what does this atricle really saying? The NFL screwed up when even putting a team in Jacksonville in the first place?
You could certainly make that case, as Jacksonville is the league's smallest market and has the smallest fan base. However, it usually takes generations for a team and a city to establish a bond that results in a large and dedicated fan base. I also think the fact that the Jaguars have been able to sell out their stadium, despite having the smallest market and fan base, is a testament to the people of Jacksonville, as they have a much smaller pool of fans to work with. The biggest mistake they made when putting a team in Jacksonville was making the stadium far too large to sell out in a small market.

Like I said, this isn't a Jaguars-only issue. There are a number small market teams around the league who have this same problem.
Didn't the Jaguars have to take a couple thousand seats out of the stadium so they could sell it out and air the games on TV in Jacksonville beacuse of the blackout rules?
Yes, they did, because the size of the stadium was wayy out of proportion with the size of the market.

The decision to cover the seats was one of the best decisions to make if the Jaguars wanted to stay in Jacksonville.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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This seems like it was obviously at least a small mistake, choosing Jax as the expansion. Not to beat a dead horse, but one of the more interesting issues here to me is was it unethical for Tagliabue to put the expanision team there just to placate his buddy Jack Kent Cooke. And it was a bad business move too. How many now Ravens fans were really former skins fans? Not me. It was probably Tags' biggest mistake. Again, no offense to Jags fans.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splat420
The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
Kansas City draws from all over the place though. If you like in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Nebraska you're just as likely to be a Chiefs fan as anything else.

Jacksonville basically draws from Northern Florida and that's it. It was an awful move to put a football team there in the first place. That being said, I think the Bills are the worst-placed team in the NFL, and I would keep a close on on the rumors of them eventually moving to Toronto.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohleive
This seems like it was obviously at least a small mistake, choosing Jax as the expansion. Not to beat a dead horse, but one of the more interesting issues here to me is was it unethical for Tagliabue to put the expanision team there just to placate his buddy Jack Kent Cooke. And it was a bad business move too. How many now Ravens fans were really former skins fans? Not me. It was probably Tags' biggest mistake. Again, no offense to Jags fans.
There's no offense taken, as it's all water under the bridge anyways. Plus, there's the fact that I think it's ridiculous that it took the NFL almost twenty years to give Baltimore a team after losing the Colts.

I also think it's ridiculous that Irsay was allowed to take the rights of the Colts with him. But I guess they learned their lesson, as that was the move that predicated the league forcing Art Modell to leave the rights of the Browns with the city of Cleveland.

But that's a whole other issue...
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohleive
This seems like it was obviously at least a small mistake, choosing Jax as the expansion. Not to beat a dead horse, but one of the more interesting issues here to me is was it unethical for Tagliabue to put the expanision team there just to placate his buddy Jack Kent Cooke. And it was a bad business move too. How many now Ravens fans were really former skins fans? Not me. It was probably Tags' biggest mistake. Again, no offense to Jags fans.
There's no offense taken, as it's all water under the bridge anyways. Plus, there's the fact that I think it's ridiculous that it took the NFL almost twenty years to give Baltimore a team after losing the Colts.

I also think it's ridiculous that Irsay was allowed to take the rights of the Colts with him. But I guess they learned their lesson, as that was the move that predicated the league forcing Art Modell to leave the rights of the Browns with the city of Cleveland.

But that's a whole other issue...
I could be wrong, but I believe the Irsay family founded the Colts. The Modell family did not found the Browns, (obviously by the name), that's another huge part of it.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splat420
The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
Kansas City draws from all over the place though. If you like in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Nebraska you're just as likely to be a Chiefs fan as anything else.

Jacksonville basically draws from Northern Florida and that's it. It was an awful move to put a football team there in the first place. That being said, I think the Bills are the worst-placed team in the NFL, and I would keep a close on on the rumors of them eventually moving to Toronto.
Buffalo has some die hard fans though. Their fan base is not even close to as bad as Jacksonville.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Quote:
Originally Posted by yourfavestoner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohleive
This seems like it was obviously at least a small mistake, choosing Jax as the expansion. Not to beat a dead horse, but one of the more interesting issues here to me is was it unethical for Tagliabue to put the expanision team there just to placate his buddy Jack Kent Cooke. And it was a bad business move too. How many now Ravens fans were really former skins fans? Not me. It was probably Tags' biggest mistake. Again, no offense to Jags fans.
There's no offense taken, as it's all water under the bridge anyways. Plus, there's the fact that I think it's ridiculous that it took the NFL almost twenty years to give Baltimore a team after losing the Colts.

I also think it's ridiculous that Irsay was allowed to take the rights of the Colts with him. But I guess they learned their lesson, as that was the move that predicated the league forcing Art Modell to leave the rights of the Browns with the city of Cleveland.

But that's a whole other issue...
I could be wrong, but I believe the Irsay family founded the Colts. The Modell family did not found the Browns, (obviously by the name), that's another huge part of it.
Irsays bought the Colts after the Unitas era.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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[quote="Jughead10"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splat420
The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
Kansas City draws from all over the place though. If you like in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Nebraska you're just as likely to be a Chiefs fan as anything else.

Jacksonville basically draws from Northern Florida and that's it. It was an awful move to put a football team there in the first place. That being said, I think the Bills are the worst-placed team in the NFL, and I would keep a close on on the rumors of them eventually moving to Toronto.
Buffalo has some die hard fans though.
Yes but Jacksonville at least has money and industries that can invest in the advertisements, media market, etc.

Fans are honestly a very overated aspect of what makes a market.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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How does Jacksonville have a franchise and LA dosen't?
because LA had three teams and they all failed
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splat420
The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
Kansas City draws from all over the place though. If you like in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Nebraska you're just as likely to be a Chiefs fan as anything else.

Jacksonville basically draws from Northern Florida and that's it. It was an awful move to put a football team there in the first place. That being said, I think the Bills are the worst-placed team in the NFL, and I would keep a close on on the rumors of them eventually moving to Toronto.
I think if the Bills or Jags move it will be to LA I don't think LA should get another chance but the NFL wants a team there bad so i think they have a better chance then Toronto.
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Old 02-20-2007, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
Kansas City draws from all over the place though. If you like in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Nebraska you're just as likely to be a Chiefs fan as anything else.

Jacksonville basically draws from Northern Florida and that's it. It was an awful move to put a football team there in the first place. That being said, I think the Bills are the worst-placed team in the NFL, and I would keep a close on on the rumors of them eventually moving to Toronto.
Buffalo has some die hard fans though. Their fan base is not even close to as bad as Jacksonville.
Like I said, it usually takes generations for a team to build a solid bond with its city. It's a major sociological issue that I think gets overlooked when analyzing fan bases. If you think about it, the first generation of the fan base for an expansion team is people who have never had a pro team in their city before, and don't have a real attachment to the team. When the team first comes, buying tickets to the game is just the newest "fad" and after a few losing seasons, that fad wears off - just like any other ones. The die hard fans will come as the kids who grow up with the team and are more "die hard" fans get old enough to become season ticket holders.

Think about all of the teams who have what's considered a "die hard" fan base. The ones that usually come to mind the most quickly are the Bears, Packers, Steelers, and Giants - all teams that have been in the league since the 1930s.
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Old 02-20-2007, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Jacksonville needs to be out of the NFL and the team needs to be put in a place where fans are starving for a team. I don't think LA really is starving for a team, but one city that would do anything in the world would be Las Vegas!!! Look at Green Bay and Kansas City, two cities that lack success in anything else, but when it comes to football, that is what they live for.
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Old 02-20-2007, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Jacksonville needs to be out of the NFL and the team needs to be put in a place where fans are starving for a team. I don't think LA really is starving for a team, but one city that would do anything in the world would be Las Vegas!!! Look at Green Bay and Kansas City, two cities that lack success in anything else, but when it comes to football, that is what they live for.
Las Vegas makes so much less sense than Los Angeles. It's just a much smaller version with even bigger concerns. NBA teams can work in smaller-city markets that the NFL cannot. This is why an NBA team can play in Oklahoma City, which would never be feasible for an NFL team.
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Old 02-20-2007, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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The Chiefs are in small market and have one of the bigger stadium's in the NFL Seating Capacity 79,451 it can be done.
Kansas City draws from all over the place though. If you like in Kansas, Oklahoma, or Nebraska you're just as likely to be a Chiefs fan as anything else.

Jacksonville basically draws from Northern Florida and that's it. It was an awful move to put a football team there in the first place. That being said, I think the Bills are the worst-placed team in the NFL, and I would keep a close on on the rumors of them eventually moving to Toronto.
Buffalo has some die hard fans though. Their fan base is not even close to as bad as Jacksonville.
Like I said, it usually takes generations for a team to build a solid bond with its city. It's a major sociological issue that I think gets overlooked when analyzing fan bases. If you think about it, the first generation of the fan base for an expansion team is people who have never had a pro team in their city before, and don't have a real attachment to the team. When the team first comes, buying tickets to the game is just the newest "fad" and after a few losing seasons, that fad wears off - just like any other ones. The die hard fans will come as the kids who grow up with the team and are more "die hard" fans get old enough to become season ticket holders.

Think about all of the teams who have what's considered a "die hard" fan base. The ones that usually come to mind the most quickly are the Bears, Packers, Steelers, and Giants - all teams that have been in the league since the 1930s.
It has just as much to do, if not more, with geography. It's warm in Florida. You can go to the beach. You can't do **** in Pittsburgh or Cleveland. Trust me.
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Old 02-20-2007, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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No offense to Jag's fans, but there's no way the expansion should've landed in Jax over Baltimore. It was a disgrace and a total hose-job. That said, I love my Ravens.
It ended up better for us, if Modell didnt hire his buddy Newsome we wouldnt have had that great D we have today.
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Old 02-20-2007, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Jacksonville needs to be out of the NFL and the team needs to be put in a place where fans are starving for a team. I don't think LA really is starving for a team, but one city that would do anything in the world would be Las Vegas!!! Look at Green Bay and Kansas City, two cities that lack success in anything else, but when it comes to football, that is what they live for.
Las Vegas makes so much less sense than Los Angeles. It's just a much smaller version with even bigger concerns. NBA teams can work in smaller-city markets that the NFL cannot. This is why an NBA team can play in Oklahoma City, which would never be feasible for an NFL team.
I don't get why Oklahmo City woudl never be feasible for an NFL team. Please explain. I always thought Portland would be a good spot for an NFL team.
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