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Old 05-16-2008, 03:04 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
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Originally Posted by Splat420 View Post
You don't have to have name players in the secondary when you have a DL like that I would take a great line and average CB's over great CB's and a average line.
Well the regular season proved they did need some good CB's back there.
They got hot at the right time, and that's cool, i'm not taking that away from them, but the people that expect the defense to play like they did in the playoffs all year are gonna be sadly disappointed.
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Old 05-16-2008, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Joseph was put on IR in preaseason with "back spasms". Basically he sucked so bad that the Giants knew they were going to cut him after the 2007 season so they put him on IR with an injury that could be played through. Joseph didn't play a single down last season.
Throughout his career he has seen significant playing time. Granted, he never set the world on fire, but certainly did play quite a bit throughout his career. I was saying that none of the Giants losses were big by themselves, but as a whole, it will affect the defense.
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Old 05-16-2008, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by eaglesalltheway View Post
Throughout his career he has seen significant playing time. Granted, he never set the world on fire, but certainly did play quite a bit throughout his career. I was saying that none of the Giants losses were big by themselves, but as a whole, it will affect the defense.
Joseph only played because everyone and their mothers ahead of him was hurt. Seriously, losing him is a positive. Torbor and Mitchell only bought time for young guys like Kiwi, DeOzzie, blackburn and Wilk to get more refined. They were no better than the kids are now. Now gibril hurt because when used properly he can be a very good player, BUT he had to play out of position last season where he wasn't nearly as good.
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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its gotta be the vikes ftw
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure why everyone says "I want a great d-line and average DBs over great DBs and an average pass rush".

It works the opposite way as well. A great set of DBs will buy your pass rush extra time.
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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Also to add to what eaglesfan is saying, I'm not sure why everyone is for the Vikes having the best defense but everyone saying it is an outrageous claim when someone says the Giants. I'm pretty sure the Giants have a better D-Line than the Vikes, and they are about the same in the secondary with more promise going to the Vikes but it isn't that much of a difference.

And before everyone jumps on me for saying the Giants have a better D-Line than the Vikes, the Vikes can stop the run. Thats it. The Giants can do both. Yes, Allen will help the Vikes in the pass rush department but if Jared Allen gets 15 and half sacks next year the Vikings will have 15 and half sacks total as a team it seems.

Just saying it goes both ways. Everyone is saying the Vikes but they don't have much in the secondary either. I don't think either will be the best. I think the Vikings will lead again in rushing but get thrown all over. The Giants will be in the upper tier in total defense but not in the top 5.
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by eaglesfan_45 View Post
I'm not sure why everyone says "I want a great d-line and average DBs over great DBs and an average pass rush".

It works the opposite way as well. A great set of DBs will buy your pass rush extra time.
Its not the same I don't care who your CB's are if you don't have a pass rush some one is going to get open.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:07 PM    (permalink
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If the 9ers offense hangs on to the ball for more than 10 minutes they have a chance to have atleast a top 10 defense
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:09 PM    (permalink
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Also to add to what eaglesfan is saying, I'm not sure why everyone is for the Vikes having the best defense but everyone saying it is an outrageous claim when someone says the Giants. I'm pretty sure the Giants have a better D-Line than the Vikes, and they are about the same in the secondary with more promise going to the Vikes but it isn't that much of a difference.

And before everyone jumps on me for saying the Giants have a better D-Line than the Vikes, the Vikes can stop the run. Thats it. The Giants can do both. Yes, Allen will help the Vikes in the pass rush department but if Jared Allen gets 15 and half sacks next year the Vikings will have 15 and half sacks total as a team it seems.

Just saying it goes both ways. Everyone is saying the Vikes but they don't have much in the secondary either. I don't think either will be the best. I think the Vikings will lead again in rushing but get thrown all over. The Giants will be in the upper tier in total defense but not in the top 5.
Antoine Winfield > Anything the Giants can throw out at corner
Madieu Williams, Darren Sharper > Anything the Giants can throw out at safety
Aaron Ross is a little more talented than Cedric Griffin, but not by a whole lot.

Kevin Williams brings the heat in pass situations as good as any DT. Jared Allen will be of great help, and their linebackers are just as good.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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All i ever hear about the Giants' is their pass rush, and never about their secondary. Kiwanuka and Tuck aren't gonna cover T.O when he's torching them for 150 again.
hahahaha. T.O. can get 300 recieving yards in each game in the regular season for all I care as long as we win the superbowl again. Try winning a playoff game this decade and then talk.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Antoine Winfield > Anything the Giants can throw out at corner
Madieu Williams, Darren Sharper > Anything the Giants can throw out at safety
Aaron Ross is a little more talented than Cedric Griffin, but not by a whole lot.

Kevin Williams brings the heat in pass situations as good as any DT. Jared Allen will be of great help, and their linebackers are just as good.
I would argue that whole Antoine Winfield thing. He is a good run supporter but he isn't that much better than Ross if at all at covering folks. I'd even go as far to say I'd take Ross over Winfield.
And while the safety situation is true, it ain't by that much cuz the two the Vikings have aren't that good, only reason everyone thinks they are because the NFC North QB's throw them 4-5 INT's everytime they play them.

Giants D-Line still is better than the Vikings.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by terribletowel39
And before everyone jumps on me for saying the Giants have a better D-Line than the Vikes, the Vikes can stop the run. Thats it. The Giants can do both. Yes, Allen will help the Vikes in the pass rush department but if Jared Allen gets 15 and half sacks next year the Vikings will have 15 and half sacks total as a team it seems.
I don't know which line is better, the Giants have a much better group of DE's but the Vikings have a much better group of DT's along with a elite DE and 2 promising youngsters. When you sayy the Vikings D-line can stop the run but that is the only thing they can do you are over exagerating. Ray Edwards had 5 sacks(of 2nd year DEs only Mario Williams, Dumervil, Tamba Hali, and Darryl Tapp had more) last year and he didn't play 4 games do to suspension he was on his way to a 7-8 sack year which is good for a 2nd year player. Brian Robison had 4.5 sacks as a rookie DE the only other Rookie DE to have more sacks was Gaines Adams. Both of these youngsters will benefit from the presence of Jared Allen, don't be surprised if Ray Edwards racks up double digit sacks and has a break out year. Not to forget Erasmus James who if by a miracle can be healthy for any decent amount of time could provide a boost in the pass rush.

Also MetSox seemed to already address this but the Vikings do have a better secondary than the Giants.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Menardo75 View Post
If the 9ers offense hangs on to the ball for more than 10 minutes they have a chance to have atleast a top 10 defense
Agreed. If the niners didn't have a bottom three offense last year they would have been a pretty good defense. This year they are going to be even better with the addition of Justin Smith and the subtraction of Derrick Smith.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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I don't know which line is better, the Giants have a much better group of DE's but the Vikings have a much better group of DT's along with a elite DE and 2 promising youngsters. When you sayy the Vikings D-line can stop the run but that is the only thing they can do you are over exagerating. Ray Edwards had 5 sacks(of 2nd year DEs only Mario Williams, Dumervil, Tamba Hali, and Darryl Tapp had more) last year and he didn't play 4 games do to suspension he was on his way to a 7-8 sack year which is good for a 2nd year player. Brian Robison had 4.5 sacks as a rookie DE the only other Rookie DE to have more sacks was Gaines Adams. Both of these youngsters will benefit from the presence of Jared Allen, don't be surprised if Ray Edwards racks up double digit sacks and has a break out year. Not to forget Erasmus James who if by a miracle can be healthy for any decent amount of time could provide a boost in the pass rush.

Also MetSox seemed to already address this but the Vikings do have a better secondary than the Giants.
Yea except I don't think that the Vikings have a MUCH better group of DT's over the Giants. The Giants still allowed less than a 100 yards on the ground at 97.7. While it's no 74 the Vikings allowed thats a smaller difference than 207 through the air for the Giants and 264 for the Vikes. I guess its just a matter of opinion. The Vikes did gain a valuable commidity over the off season, so we are gonna have to see how he pans out.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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The Williams Wrecking crew is much better, you have to take what they accomplished in perspective. Kevin and Pat accomplished all that while being consistently double teamed. I'm pretty sure thats not something the Giants DT had to deal with very much at all due to having Osi and Strahan on the outside. Pat and Kevin Williams also should benefit from Jared Allen taking some of the double teams off of them.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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But the opposite is true for the Giants. Osi and Strahan demand double teams. But still get production and rush the QB and stop the run with extreme consistency.

Vikes DT are just huge. 700 lbs in one position. Thats gonna command double teams.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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Vikings Dline is better than the Giants IMO. 2 All-Pros and one alternative All-pro and 2 young guys who did good last year + an injury prone 1st round DE who could finaly do something.

All round the Vikes have the best D'line in the league, maybe the Pats are there too though

They have a great and underrated linebacker unit

I think the safteys group is one of the best in the NFC, however, i am not that confident with our CBs. With have some young guys like Gordon, McCaughly and Griffin with loads of potential, but Winfeild is not a great cover corner. He is a little slow, short and has earned his reputation for being one of the best pound-for-pound tacklers.


My Defence Rankings

Top Group (no real no.1) - Colts, Steelers, Chargers and Vikes
Next Tier - Packers, Jags, Bears, Cowboys, Eagles
Slipping with age (unless young guys step up big) - Ravens, Bucs, Pats

I have prob missed some teams
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Vikings Dline is better than the Giants IMO. 2 All-Pros and one alternative All-pro and 2 young guys who did good last year + an injury prone 1st round DE who could finaly do something.

All round the Vikes have the best D'line in the league, maybe the Pats are there too though

They have a great and underrated linebacker unit

I think the safteys group is one of the best in the NFC, however, i am not that confident with our CBs. With have some young guys like Gordon, McCaughly and Griffin with loads of potential, but Winfeild is not a great cover corner. He is a little slow, short and has earned his reputation for being one of the best pound-for-pound tacklers.


My Defence Rankings

Top Group (no real no.1) - Colts, Steelers, Chargers and Vikes
Next Tier - Packers, Jags, Bears, Cowboys, Eagles
Slipping with age (unless young guys step up big) - Ravens, Bucs, Pats

I have prob missed some teams
ill buy it. i think when totally healthy though, the bears can be on that top tier.
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Old 05-16-2008, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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I don't buy it. I think its completely bogus that you can put a team in the "Top Group" that was dead last in a major defensive category last year.

I know everyone says there were last because everyone threw on them because you can't run on them. Well thats still not good pass defense. Take the top 5 run stopping defense's in Vikes, Ravens, Steelers, Redskins, and the Titans and Baltimore is closest in pass defense at the 20 spot and they really only had Ed Reed back there the whole year.

I just can't see how you put them in the Top Level. And this maybe homerish but the Vikings don't deserve to be in the same category as the Steelers who were #3 in both rushing and passing. So it is possible to stop both.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Also to add to what eaglesfan is saying, I'm not sure why everyone is for the Vikes having the best defense.
Why is this that hard to understand? They had one of the best defenses last year, they create an insane amount of turnovers, have probably the best DT tandem in the league, and were a top defense last year, this was all without the best 4-3 DE in the game, why is it absurd to believe they have the best D this year when they were damn close last year without an edge rusher what so ever...What double teams will Allen have to see?
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Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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I just don't buy the Vikings being at the top. They'll be up there in the top ten, likely top 5 but I can't see them at the top spot. They have been dead last in pass defense the past two years. Last year they gave up 266 passing yards a game, that's ridiculous. Jared Allen is a huge addition, but he's not going to make that pass defense good enough for them to hold the title of best defense. They allowed 5 games of 300 or more passing yards last year. Favre and the Packers got them for 344 and 351 passing yards, McNabb and the Eagles got them for 333, more embarrassingly Brian Griese and the Bears lit them up for 381 yards, and Culpepper and the Raiders got them for 344.
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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Only way the giants d isn't in the top 2 tiers is serious injury and people figuring out spags' scheme.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terribletowel39 View Post
Vikes DT are just huge. 700 lbs in one position. Thats gonna command double teams.
I have seen every game Jared Allen has every played for the Chiefs and to think he is going to see alot of one on one is a scary thought for QB's.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatEscape View Post
Who do people think are going to be the best defenses of the 08-09 season? I've got the vikings, giants, chargers, ravens and iggles will have the 5 best d's this season.

Vikes great DTs finally have a force on the outside, good LBs and an improved secondary.

Giants pass rush one them a superbowl, our d figures to be better this year with spags' system more refined, our young players having stepped up, more young talent at LB and DB, and Kiwi back. This D is very aggressive and versatile.

Chargers have enormous talent, they need to stay aggressive with the play calling and their d will be imposing.

Ravens have a good system and a lot of talent, Washington really helps them with CB depth.

The eagles have a very good young D that will bring heat and has a great secondary.

Who do you guys have at the top?
I dont know how you can have a list of top defenses without any AFC South teams in it. The Colts, Titans, and Jags all have top 10 defenses and the Texans are rising and could be top 10 as well.
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:10 PM    (permalink
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If the Buccaneers run defense finishes in the top 5-10 they will have the top defense in the NFL. If it doesn't, they will still be solid thanks to a great pass defense.
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