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Old 05-20-2008, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
Smart and cocky are not the same thing. Ryan had too much confidence in his arm and attempted to make a ton of plays due to a bad team around him.

Oh, and he threw the ball like 50 times a game, second most in the nation. Same pass to interception ratio as John David Booty. Hmm, don't hear Booty is a pick prone QB much.
called it!
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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We could have put some bandaids on things and been decent next year. But then Brooking, Coleman, Horn, Milloy, Crumpler, and the rest of the aging team would have been done. We have built for the future, not put on bandaids.

And credibility is sapped when a fake QB is number two on your list.
lol whoops, i keep calling Woodson Smith for some reason. I don't know why, just a typo.

I wouldn't call it bandaids. I agreed with letting go of Dunn and Crumpler. I disagreed with the scheme in place, i disagreed with letting go of Hall, shouldve taken Dorsey #3 overall, couldve taken a LB in round 3 the way they were falling, took Baker too high (although Im a fan of Bakers), couldve took Phillips to bolster that secondary etc.

Is there THAT much of a difference between Ryan and Brohm? I definitely don't think so. Ryan just got 72 million, and Brohm was a 2nd round pick. I think Atlanta didn't play this one wisely.

An offseason of hiring Rex Ryan, keeping Hall, signing Turner, taking Dorsey, Brohm, Phillips, and Jonathan Goff to bolster that defense would be sweet. Use the other picks on guys like Baker to bolster the line, id take that offseason over the one the falcons just had.

And I think with that kind of offseason, youd have more to build off of moving forward. I just didn't like the moves that were made.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Perhaps i was a bit harsh with what i said. But ive said all along that i wouldn't touch him or even consider him until the middle of the 1st round at best. I felt that if the Falcons took him #3 overall it would be a terrible mistake.


While other quarterbacks have had their share of poor statistics (Eli being the posterboy of a qb who had poor stats but still won), the problems that stick out to me with Ryan have been he's never impressed me when i saw him play. Forget stats, you guys know i hate using stats unless i absolutely have to use them to validate my reasonings, when I saw Ryan play it was just unimpressive. He didn't wow me the way a top 10 pick should wow you. I was wowed when i saw Eli, Ben, Rivers, Cutler, Young, Quinn, to a lesser extent Leinart, but i didn't see anything from Ryan to make me believe he would be a franchise caliber player.

Can he be solid? Yes i think he can, but I don't think he'll ever be franchise caliber, and top 3 picks are supposed to be more than that.

Let's face it, the main reason why the Falcons took him wasn't necessarily for his ability, but moreso bc they needed a clean face as the future of their franchise, and they needed to unequivocally remove themselves from Michael Vick in every way possible.

I initially felt that the Falcons couldve been a sleeper team this upcoming year, depending on the moves they could potentially make. To me, they failed miserably this offseason. They made a lot of poor decisions, from letting go of Hall, to a poor hiring of a coaching staff imo, to not maximizing investments out of all those draft picks.

This team wasn't nearly as bad as they were perceived to be, but a lot of questionable moves this offseason leads me to believe that they got worse. Not every year is going to have a stud qb, we have to realize that. This was one of those years where teams shouldve shyed away from taking a qb early. Theres always that one team that feels compelled to take a qb early just because. Atlanta was that team this year.

I readily admit i can be wrong though. As background, here is how ive rated the qbs from previous drafts:

1. Eli
2. Rivers
3. Ben

1. Jason Campbell
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Alex Smith

1. Jay Cutler
2. Matt Leinart
3. Vince Young

1. Brady Quinn
2. John Beck
3. Trent Edwards
4. JaMarcus Russell
5. Troy Smith

1. Joe Flacco
2. Andre Smith
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brian Brohm
5. Chad Henne

take it for what its worth.
They also drafted him because of his leadership ability and his great work ethic. I would agree with you if you said that he isnt that physically talented. I would say he is average in nearly every department. His arm is not like Flacco's or Cutler's or Palmer's or Manning's. His accuracy is not that of P. Manning, Drew Brees, or even Matt Leinart. His decision making skills need alot of improvement as well.

But you want to know what is comparable to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Carson Palmer? Things that Russell lacked? His leadership ability and work ethic. His drive to get better and be the leader of the team, to gain respect of teammates. The amount of work he actually puts into being a top NFL QB and lead his teams to the Ws. Look at the quote in my sig.

After having Vick as our QB, I think Ryan was very necessary. Vick was the face of the franchise but never acted like it. He led by example which is great, but being the franchise QB requires alot more. Teammates need to be able to feed off your energy. Teammates didnt do that from Vick. It wouldnt be surprising to maybe even see teammates being isolated from Vick. Vick wasnt the type of guy that would spend hours and hours in the film room breaking down the defense or trying to improve himself. Matt Ryan is that guy.

Sure none of his talents pop out at you, but how much of it is necessary? His arm is adequate enough to get the passes to where they need to be. He isnt going to be throwing bombs all the time anyway. His accuracy is good where it counts (slants and outs). His decision making needs improvement, but I am sure with good coaching and a good supporting cast, that will come to him as well.

Things you dont develop while you are in the NFL are your work ethic and drive to get better. Players dont suddenly (or over time) become the leaders of their teams from out of nowhere.

Thats just my opinion though.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BamaFalcon59 View Post
Smart and cocky are not the same thing. Ryan had too much confidence in his arm and attempted to make a ton of plays due to a bad team around him.

Oh, and he threw the ball like 50 times a game, second most in the nation. Same pass to interception ratio as John David Booty. Hmm, don't hear Booty is a pick prone QB much.
John David Booty was a 3rd round draft pick. Ryan was the 3rd pick in the draft. Big discrepancy there. Thats ultimately where my issue lies. #3 overall? Come on, theres no way Ryan is worth that value. No way.

If he came out last year, he wouldve been a 2nd round pick. The only reason why he was top 3 overall was because of the dirth of qb talent in this year's draft.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Ryan has been compared by others (not me) to Peyton Manning, including in work ethic. Maybe he can make good on that promise, like a Carson Palmer or a Jay Cutler.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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They also drafted him because of his leadership ability and his great work ethic. I would agree with you if you said that he isnt that physically talented. I would say he is average in nearly every department. His arm is not like Flacco's or Cutler's or Palmer's or Manning's. His accuracy is not that of P. Manning, Drew Brees, or even Matt Leinart. His decision making skills need alot of improvement as well.

But you want to know what is comparable to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Carson Palmer? Things that Russell lacked? His leadership ability and work ethic. His drive to get better and be the leader of the team, to gain respect of teammates. The amount of work he actually puts into being a top NFL QB and lead his teams to the Ws. Look at the quote in my sig.

After having Vick as our QB, I think Ryan was very necessary. Vick was the face of the franchise but never acted like it. He led by example which is great, but being the franchise QB requires alot more. Teammates need to be able to feed off your energy. Teammates didnt do that from Vick. It wouldnt be surprising to maybe even see teammates being isolated from Vick. Vick wasnt the type of guy that would spend hours and hours in the film room breaking down the defense or trying to improve himself. Matt Ryan is that guy.

Sure none of his talents pop out at you, but how much of it is necessary? His arm is adequate enough to get the passes to where they need to be. He isnt going to be throwing bombs all the time anyway. His accuracy is good where it counts (slants and outs). His decision making needs improvement, but I am sure with good coaching and a good supporting cast, that will come to him as well.

Things you dont develop while you are in the NFL are your work ethic and drive to get better. Players dont suddenly (or over time) become the leaders of their teams from out of nowhere.

Thats just my opinion though.
I hear you on that. Like i said, i feel he has potential to be a good qb, I just don't see "franchise qb" star caliber greatness in him. Thats what my overall beef with the pick was. He's not #3 overall value. And now, what if he doesn't pan out? You just payed an awful lot for a quarterback who has a 2nd round grade (in my opinion) on him.

To put it in perspective, Kellen Clemens had great intangibles and a better arm. He went 2nd round. John Beck had great intangibles and work ethic and intelligence and accuracy, he went 2nd round. Quinn fell to the 22nd pick in the 1st round.

Basically what im trying to say is, I just don't think his ability warrants the spot where he was drafted. The Falcons are putting a TON of faith in him, and that contract raises more eyebrows. This is either a genius move, or will set back the franchise another 6 years.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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I hear you on that. Like i said, i feel he has potential to be a good qb, I just don't see "franchise qb" star caliber greatness in him. Thats what my overall beef with the pick was. He's not #3 overall value. And now, what if he doesn't pan out? You just payed an awful lot for a quarterback who has a 2nd round grade (in my opinion) on him.

To put it in perspective, Kellen Clemens had great intangibles and a better arm. He went 2nd round. John Beck had great intangibles and work ethic and intelligence and accuracy, he went 2nd round. Quinn fell to the 22nd pick in the 1st round.

Basically what im trying to say is, I just don't think his ability warrants the spot where he was drafted. The Falcons are putting a TON of faith in him, and that contract raises more eyebrows. This is either a genius move, or will set back the franchise another 6 years.
There is something missing here, seeing how every NFL team had a first round grade on Ryan. At least, probably more, two teams had him valued with a top three pick. I'll trust the head men in Baltimore, Atlanta, and many other teams over you.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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Yeah its a very risky and bold move. I guess from what they have seen from him the FO really likes him. I would like to say 'I trust the FO' but its all a bunch of new guys and who really knows.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:39 PM    (permalink
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We can talk up Ryan all we want there is simply no excuse for 19int's in college. Spin it any way you want. If he was trying his hardest he did a Bad job, which means the is a high probability he will continue to do a bad job.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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We can talk up Ryan all we want there is simply no excuse for 19int's in college. Spin it any way you want. If he was trying his hardest he did a Bad job, which means the is a high probability he will continue to do a bad job.
Great logic! You have figured it out. I wonder why all those guys getting payed for this stuff haven't figured this out.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Is Matt Ryan a better prospect than Trent Edwards?
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Ryan has been compared by others (not me) to Peyton Manning, including in work ethic. Maybe he can make good on that promise, like a Carson Palmer or a Jay Cutler.
I can see that. What's lost is his great escape ability. Might be one of his best assests.


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We can talk up Ryan all we want there is simply no excuse for 19int's in college. Spin it any way you want. If he was trying his hardest he did a Bad job, which means the is a high probability he will continue to do a bad job.
Everyone seems to buy that put the team on his shoulders thing. I've never been one to support that, but it's what has been said.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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There is something missing here, seeing how every NFL team had a first round grade on Ryan. At least, probably more, two teams had him valued with a top three pick. I'll trust the head men in Baltimore, Atlanta, and many other teams over you.
thats understandable. im not asking anyone to put faith in my word like i was Moses.

but let's not pretend that head scouts are right all the time. once upon a time, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Alex Smith, and Patrick Ramsey were graded as top 10 prospects as well. Didn't exactly work out the way they hoped.

Not every year is going to have a stud quarterback. The failure rate is higher than the success rate.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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And don't get it twisted i am a Atlanta native who does not have any feeling towards Michael vick i sincerely have the Falcons best interest in my heart.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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And don't get it twisted i am a Atlanta native who does not have any feeling towards Michael vick i sincerely have the Falcons best interest in my heart.
I agree. I hope this move pans out because Atlanta fans deserve for it to work. They went through a lot this season, and Id hate to see them fall into a downward spiral bc of a poor decision.

I just feel they really are rolling the dice with this move. I personally don't like taking qbs early unless you have the pieces around him to make him successful. And to me, thats a dominant defense, solid oline and run game. I felt Atlanta couldve built up that defense, oline and run game this year and went on and got their guy next year, but they made the decision to get their guy now and they have to live with it. For their sake, I hope it works out for them.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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But you want to know what is comparable to Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Carson Palmer? Things that Russell lacked? His leadership ability and work ethic. His drive to get better and be the leader of the team, to gain respect of teammates. The amount of work he actually puts into being a top NFL QB and lead his teams to the Ws. Look at the quote in my sig.
Thats actually quite funny since Russell has shown up in advance and works pretty hard everyday.Not only that but hes also in great shape at 269.

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On Raiders QB JaMarcus Russell:
Lane Kiffin: "[His off-season] has been great. He's working extremely hard. He's here from about 7:30 in the morning until about 2:00 in the afternoon. He starts with football stuff in the classroom and then he goes into the weight room, lifts with the first group, and then goes out on the field and runs with them and then stays out and throws and goes through all the quarterback stuff on the field after that."
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs...es/012291.html

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Q: What has JaMarcus done this off-season? How much has he progressed?
Knapp: Because we are not allowed to do team settings it is hard to tell, but as far as the classroom goes he is done a great job. He has been meeting with me for an hour and 45 minutes on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday since March 10th. We have been on the field an hour on those same respective days and to see the progress of the footwork and the correlation that we are getting in the classroom as far as quizzing and taking the tests. We give him a study guide each week to take home and bring back. The quizzes we give him in the classroom, he really has progressed and it’s exciting to see. The time we get to spend now really wiring the guy’s brain on how to really play the position and our offense is during this time. We have seen great strides in the classroom and in the individual stuff and now we hope to see it carry over to [Organized Team Activities] when we start practice.
Q: For these quizzes do you grade him?
Knapp: No, a lot of it would be like right now I would throw, in the middle of watching a play, ‘what would be your progression right here? What is your footwork? Who is your first read on defense?’ And obviously the feedback I get, ‘oh that’s good, he is stepping that much quicker.’ Some of the things he has brought up to us really has impressed me, like when we started this off-season back in March; we showed something on the board and he goes, ‘Well why did you ask me that question coach? That is the question you asked me before my Pro Day at LSU.’ And he is exactly right. That is exciting because if he has that kind of recall on a night that was very important to him a year ago way before the draft, than you know he is into it and he really wants to become a better quarterback.
http://www.raiders.com/Common/Article.aspx?id=43286


Quote:
Smart and cocky are not the same thing. Ryan had too much confidence in his arm and attempted to make a ton of plays due to a bad team around him.

Oh, and he threw the ball like 50 times a game, second most in the nation. Same pass to interception ratio as John David Booty. Hmm, don't hear Booty is a pick prone QB much.
excuses, excuses. 19 ints is unacceptable.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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To be honest, I like Russell at first overall '07 less than I like Ryan at third overall '08. Russell just had way to much of a bust factor for me, even though his physical talent could put some other prospects to shame.

Of course, what I thought leading up to April 07 really doesn't have any bearing on a player's career and what they make of it, plus the situation they are put in, etcetera.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by doingthisinsteadofwork View Post
Thats actually quite funny since Russell has shown up in advance and works pretty hard everyday.Not only that but hes also in great shape at 269.



http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs...es/012291.html



http://www.raiders.com/Common/Article.aspx?id=43286


excuses, excuses. 19 ints is unacceptable.
Oh. And here I was thinking that the HC and OC would say that their franchise QB is out of shape and not getting better and not putting in more effort in the film room.

And just FYI, look at the number of attempts. Matt Ryan threw an interception every 34.42 attempts. Chad Henne threw a pick every 30.88 attempts. Brian Brohm threw an interception every 34.42 attempts as well (after taking out the attempts he had in the Murray State and Middle Tennessee)
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:08 PM    (permalink
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I think Ryan is on a different level than brohm and the other second rounders you mentioned because I get the feeling with him that he can lead his team when it matters right away and won't fold on the team even if he struggles. I think he's a better leader than anyone in the the 07 draft and on par with VY and Cutler.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan threw a pick 2.9 percent of the time in his senior season. JaMarcus Russell threw a pick 2.4 percent of the time his junior, last season.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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Rookie contracts should be handled like the NBA handles them.

I mean good for Ryan but I still don't think he'll succeed in ATL.

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Originally Posted by doingthisinsteadofwork View Post
Thats actually quite funny since Russell has shown up in advance and works pretty hard everyday.Not only that but hes also in great shape at 269.



http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs...es/012291.html



http://www.raiders.com/Common/Article.aspx?id=43286


excuses, excuses. 19 ints is unacceptable.
I'm an LSU fan and love JR but don't be blinded by homerism and dog on Ryan like that. When you throw as many passes as he did it's bound to happen. When you add all the passes, no running game and no bodies at WR you get 19 INT's.

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Old 05-20-2008, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Wow, that was quick. But still, it's nice that that's squared away.
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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My opinion on the issue of JR vs Ryan. JR is the best QB prospect (in my mind) since Carson Palmer, and maybe even since Peyton Manning. Ryan is not that guy.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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My opinion on the issue of JR vs Ryan. JR is the best QB prospect (in my mind) since Carson Palmer, and maybe even since Peyton Manning. Ryan is not that guy.
I would like to think we can all agree on that. JR is ridiculously talented and is one of the better QB prospects. What we are talking about now is who will be the better NFL QB.

Will JR put his talent to good use? Will Matt Ryan's talents be enough? Its basically a debate of a guy who is very physically talented but has questions about his work ethics against a guy who is very average physically but is a hard worker.
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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Oh. And here I was thinking that the HC and OC would say that their franchise QB is out of shape and not getting better and not putting in more effort in the film room.
And Ive yet to see any credible evidence that says otherwise.
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