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Old 05-22-2008, 03:18 AM    (permalink
kmartin575
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Upshaw is nothing but a meat puppet for agents, I honestly do not understand why this guy still has a job, he's the Matt Millen of the NFLPA.
And both come out of Oakland, no surprise there.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:02 AM    (permalink
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This very well may be the year they finally address a system that started spiralling out of control several years ago, and is now hopelessly dysfunctional. We've heard players make comments and snide remarks in the past....but for the first time ever, we're seeing established, respected veteran leaders (including the president of the player's union) being openly critical of these deals.

Upshaw needs to check himself real quick, here. His reputation and integrity are already in question as it is....once the players believe that he's no longer acting in their best interests, he'll be out on his keister in no time flat.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:03 AM    (permalink
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Be easy on the upshaw hate, he did a lot of good and made the majority of owners and players very, very rich.

The issue here isn't that upshaw has done something wrong or incorrectly its that the players failed to adequately articulate the view when this was beginning to become a problem, which was about 5 years ago. The issue is now, that its already a problem.

Upshaw got a lot of deals done lucratively very quickly. The players are beginning to want a shift in leadership, though not collectively so.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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Be easy on the upshaw hate, he did a lot of good and made the majority of owners and players very, very rich.

The issue here isn't that upshaw has done something wrong or incorrectly its that the players failed to adequately articulate the view when this was beginning to become a problem, which was about 5 years ago. The issue is now, that its already a problem.

Upshaw got a lot of deals done lucratively very quickly. The players are beginning to want a shift in leadership, though not collectively so.
the problem is he's defending a system that just handed an unproven player at a risky position 72 million dollar, which is more than the reigning MVP who plays the same position is paid. It's such a stupid system that everyone, from tv-analysts to choaches to players to owners disagree with it, all but the rookies who get the fat contracts, their agents and Upshaw.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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i actually saw a pretty good article on that last year around this time.

it said something like each position would get a different amount in a given slot, but no matter what position they are, they would still get more than the player taken after them no matter what position they were.

so for example, say:

#1 overall pick
QB-$25 million
RB/WR-$24 million
other postions-$23 million

#2 overall pick
QB=$22 million
etc etc

so even if you had say, a kicker, taken in one spot, he would get the least money possible for that slot but it would still be higher than the slot after him, even if in that slot was a QB.

i dunno if i made much sense but the article sure did
The money based on which position you play should be based on the franchise tag, as they already have a number available for each position as far as salary goes, and from there they should use a set percentage of that for each pick, reducing as the pick gets higher. That way each position is accounted for, the salary reduces for the higher picks, and the salary of rookies each year reflects an average salary of current NFL players at the same position.
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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The money based on which position you play should be based on the franchise tag, as they already have a number available for each position as far as salary goes, and from there they should use a set percentage of that for each pick, reducing as the pick gets higher. That way each position is accounted for, the salary reduces for the higher picks, and the salary of rookies each year reflects an average salary of current NFL players at the same position.
I'd go as far as saying rookie salaries should be based on transition tags rather than franchise.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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The money based on which position you play should be based on the franchise tag, as they already have a number available for each position as far as salary goes, and from there they should use a set percentage of that for each pick, reducing as the pick gets higher. That way each position is accounted for, the salary reduces for the higher picks, and the salary of rookies each year reflects an average salary of current NFL players at the same position.
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I'd go as far as saying rookie salaries should be based on transition tags rather than franchise.
don't take the numbers i used in that example seriously. they were just made up on the spot to show how it would work since i don't actually know how much each would get. i was just showing how the different positions would get different amounts at the same draft slot but still more than the guy behind them no matter what
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Would you guys agree that such high rookie contracts might be a contributor to why some teams cannot improve? If so much of the cap is going to a handful of players, how is a team supposed to get better? Being the first pick in the draft screws your team big time. You cannot get better by bringing in free agents if you have a lot of your money tied up in your last 3-4 first round picks.
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Old 05-22-2008, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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Would you guys agree that such high rookie contracts might be a contributor to why some teams cannot improve? If so much of the cap is going to a handful of players, how is a team supposed to get better? Being the first pick in the draft screws your team big time. You cannot get better by bringing in free agents if you have a lot of your money tied up in your last 3-4 first round picks.
well, it could be a contributing factor for sure.

look at a team like the raiders who have been picking high for years now. they have top 10 money invested in robert gallery, michael huff, jamarcus russell and this year they'll have to pay it into d-mac.

and i liked this example just for kicks. who do you think gets more money? never played a down in the nfl rookie darren mcfadden or proven pro-bowl running back marion barber in the deal he just signed? enough said about how asinine rookie contracts are.....
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:02 PM    (permalink
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well, it could be a contributing factor for sure.

look at a team like the raiders who have been picking high for years now. they have top 10 money invested in robert gallery, michael huff, jamarcus russell and this year they'll have to pay it into d-mac.

and i liked this example just for kicks. who do you think gets more money? never played a down in the nfl rookie darren mcfadden or proven pro-bowl running back marion barber in the deal he just signed? enough said about how asinine rookie contracts are.....
I look at the Raiders, Cardinals, my team the Niners, Rams and a few others who have been pretty bad in recent times. And there is a lot of money tied up in the past few years top picks. Luckily for the Niners, outside of Alex Smith, they've been contributors. Though, I think it's silly that Vernon Davis makes more than Antonio Gates.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Wouldn't this deal mean that the Vets will have more leverage in their negotiations?
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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this is hows its always been, the rookie contracts that is, why all the bitching now? it will take at least 2-3 years before anything changes.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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this is hows its always been, the rookie contracts that is, why all the bitching now? it will take at least 2-3 years before anything changes.
Well, things really exploded in 04, when Manning got a massive contract, and then Rivers demanded a similar contract, and then everything else expanded off that.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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this is hows its always been, the rookie contracts that is, why all the bitching now? it will take at least 2-3 years before anything changes.
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Well, things really exploded in 04, when Manning got a massive contract, and then Rivers demanded a similar contract, and then everything else expanded off that.
yeah basically. the rookies started getting more and more but the vets really didnt...

and like someone earlier said, at this rate, matt stafford or tim tebow next year might end up with peyton manning money....no way that can be a good thing
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Old 05-22-2008, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Ive always been a Mawae fan. One of the best centers in NFL history.
He brings in valid points. Look at teachers, they use tenure to and the more experienced teachers get more money and benefits. (sometimes)
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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the problem is he's defending a system that just handed an unproven player at a risky position 72 million dollar, which is more than the reigning MVP who plays the same position is paid. It's such a stupid system that everyone, from tv-analysts to choaches to players to owners disagree with it, all but the rookies who get the fat contracts, their agents and Upshaw.
good thing its the system handing out these contracts and not the general managers and agents who fight for them. Be real here the players are upset because they want more money this is the salary cap era and upshaw shouldn't be required to demand contract limits. For a start its not his place. The players and the owners should have seen this as a potential issue a few years ago and acted then.

If anything upshaw is a little near sighted in his negotiations but that is the way the proccess is.

The rookie contract issue is oe that has been brewing for a while and its been caused by front offices agent and everyone involved not just upshaw. Blaming him for vets not being able to get theirs is a little harsh
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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Boot Upshaw! I'd love to see something like this happen in the near future. Rookie contracts are just ridiculous right now.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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good thing its the system handing out these contracts and not the general managers and agents who fight for them. Be real here the players are upset because they want more money this is the salary cap era and upshaw shouldn't be required to demand contract limits. For a start its not his place. The players and the owners should have seen this as a potential issue a few years ago and acted then.

If anything upshaw is a little near sighted in his negotiations but that is the way the proccess is.

The rookie contract issue is oe that has been brewing for a while and its been caused by front offices agent and everyone involved not just upshaw. Blaming him for vets not being able to get theirs is a little harsh
its not blame on upshaw for the way it is, its blame on him for not even considering a fix for it. he uses just straight up wrong logic to defend the system the way it is and doesn't care that some highly respected veterans like mawae, lynch and chris cooley have spoken out about it.

he just wants nothing to do with it and that is a serious problem in my book
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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What you're saying is, you want there to be an agreement reached whereby clubs are told what they can pay which players and when?

This is a dangerously restricting precedent. Plus it makes no proper provisions.

I'll show you what I am referring to.

Julius Peppers recorded 12 sacks in his first year. Tied for 6th in the league. Realisitcally he was already playing at a high level, therefore one could argue that he deserves the high salary he was receiving. One could argue, and argue correctly that in his role as a pass rusher he was worth more money than John Arbraham, Lavar Arrington and Michael Strahan.

He wasn't on more money in that year than any of them.

Erasamus james signed a contract with similar numbers to peppers contract despite being drafted lower and being no where near the prospect Peppers' was. He's now pretty much a bust as a pass rusher recording an average of 2.333 sacks a year...


My point is arguing that Players are not receiving money based on performance is a moot point. If you think about it, that has always been the case. Players get some money, yes if they reach all their target stats, but their contracts are based on projections. No one would give peyton manning all the money he gets if they didn't expect him to be great.

Ernie Accorsi and AJ smith certainly wouldn't have thrown a boat load of money down the throats of their golden boys if they weren't in love with them as prospects and didn't think they'd eventually win them a superbowl.

Accorsi especially.


Now while you're saying its not fair for a guy like Steve Smith for example to be on less money than Tedd Ginn. You're saying that if an NFL franchise believes that Tedd Ginn is the second coming of Jesus himself they can't pay him how they want to because vets won't get their money?

I'll agree rookie salaries have blown out to a large degree and I'll agree that they need to be pulled into line with where they should be. I agree with the transitional tag idea, but there needs to be some sort of idea or clause where renegotiation can begin when a player out performs their contract.

The current system might not be fair. But how fair would it be if someone like Mario Williams for example was playing on the same contract as a middle of the road journey man 3mill a year say and then tore his knee 2 seasons from now and never played again when he's been playing on the level of Elite defensive ends and out performing the highest paid DE in the league.

For upshaw to make a ruling and demand it passes one way or the other, it'll take a lot of time and effort to make it practical and as everyone is so hung up on "fair"
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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If you think Ernie Accorsi and AJ smith want to pay their players this much, I think you have the wrong idea. I could be wrong, but I think organizations want to pay their players as little as possible, while still keeping them happy enough to resign another contract before that current one ends thus keeping them inside the franchise.

The part I hate about football is that its a business =(
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Old 05-22-2008, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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If you think Ernie Accorsi and AJ smith want to pay their players this much, I think you have the wrong idea. I could be wrong, but I think organizations want to pay their players as little as possible, while still keeping them happy enough to resign another contract before that current one ends thus keeping them inside the franchise.

The part I hate about football is that its a business =(
true that homie....
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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If you think Ernie Accorsi and AJ smith want to pay their players this much, I think you have the wrong idea. I could be wrong, but I think organizations want to pay their players as little as possible, while still keeping them happy enough to resign another contract before that current one ends thus keeping them inside the franchise.

The part I hate about football is that its a business =(
general managers will pay as much as they can to keep a player happy and to keep enough to ensure they can continue to run a team and build for the future we know the drill. If general managers are going to relent to over zealous agents and players then should the CBA have to change in order for the front offices around the league to wake up to themselves.

The players might be annoyed because they feel underpaid but right now the system isn't broken.

Not only that but because a few players dont like the way rookies are being paid is not a good enough reason to oust a leader who has to date lead the nfl negotiations through an unparalelled period of harmony, profitability and prosperity.

Besides which would removing him from office and replacing him with someone inexperienced really lead to an improvement in the status quo.
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