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Old 06-13-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
Bengalsrocket
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Originally Posted by badgerbacker View Post
He had a very good argument in the post before it and you called him a tool. I wouldn't bother dealing with you if I were him either.

Anyway, Jackson was supposedly looking great last off season too but actually got worse at the end of the season in my opinion. You can't say all the pieces are there right now without seeing improvement from him. A competent QB is a big piece.
how did he have a good post? he specifically stated "The vikings haven't even addressed their biggest issue, the passing game." Which they have improved (adding Bernard Berrian to their WR corp) and further developing 2 young guys that are a big part of their passing game (both T-jack and S. Rice).

Also, how is this a good argument?

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As for them winning the NFC or the Super Bowl...come on. Giants, Cowboys, and Packers are all much better teams on paper and have proven it on the field. The Vikings haven't proven anything other than their own inadequacy the past few seasons.
Neither the Packers nor the Cowboys made the superbowl last year. And no one predicted the giants to even make the play offs last year. Then when they did make the play offs, no one thought they'd make it to the superbowl. Then when they made the superbowl no one expected them to win it.

Honestly, I don't get how his argument had any legitimacy to it. If someone wants to sit here and spout off a weak argument for why a team can't do something thats fine (thats basically what these boards are for) but Duster has 15 posts and -57 rep for a reason, maybe he should be a little more open minded instead of throwing around opinions as if they're fact.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by litlharsh View Post
^haha, you're such a tool. They've dramatically revamped the passing game, and last year t-jack was essentially a rookie starter. Not a good recipe for success.

The only thing I'm worried about is the O-line
You have to remember that "t-jack" blows though......
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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how did he have a good post? he specifically stated "The vikings haven't even addressed their biggest issue, the passing game." Which they have improved (adding Bernard Berrian to their WR corp) and further developing 2 young guys that are a big part of their passing game (both T-jack and S. Rice).

Also, how is this a good argument?



Neither the Packers nor the Cowboys made the superbowl last year. And no one predicted the giants to even make the play offs last year. Then when they did make the play offs, no one thought they'd make it to the superbowl. Then when they made the superbowl no one expected them to win it.

Honestly, I don't get how his argument had any legitimacy to it. If someone wants to sit here and spout off a weak argument for why a team can't do something thats fine (thats basically what these boards are for) but Duster has 15 posts and -57 rep for a reason, maybe he should be a little more open minded instead of throwing around opinions as if they're fact.
The Packers and Cowboys both made the playoffs last year, so they did indeed prove more than the Vikings last year. Also, while they did add Berrian, it's my opinion that he does not instantly create a good passing game. He didn't in Chicago, anyway. He could improve it, but the Vikings will still have a subpar air game unless Jackson takes significant strides from the end of last season.

As far as buster goes, he did say that it is possible that Tarvaris plays better and they make the playoffs, but you seemed to miss that and couldn't look past his post count and rep when you concluded that he was close-minded. Irony much?
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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how did he have a good post? he specifically stated "The vikings haven't even addressed their biggest issue, the passing game." Which they have improved (adding Bernard Berrian to their WR corp) and further developing 2 young guys that are a big part of their passing game (both T-jack and S. Rice).

Also, how is this a good argument?



Neither the Packers nor the Cowboys made the superbowl last year. And no one predicted the giants to even make the play offs last year. Then when they did make the play offs, no one thought they'd make it to the superbowl. Then when they made the superbowl no one expected them to win it.

Honestly, I don't get how his argument had any legitimacy to it. If someone wants to sit here and spout off a weak argument for why a team can't do something thats fine (thats basically what these boards are for) but Duster has 15 posts and -57 rep for a reason, maybe he should be a little more open minded instead of throwing around opinions as if they're fact.
Well not making the playoff argument was flat out stupid in my opinion. Anyone who knows the game knows we made the playoffs with two idiots as our coordinators. We ddn't start the Coughlin tenure with Spags and Gilbride as our coordinators. We actually had dumb and dumber with Coughlin. One got kicked out of Pittsburgh, and the other, Hufangel was glad to get his first time job as an OC.

So inspite of that we still managed to make the playoffs, and lose, but finally there was pressure to make a change and we did. We got an aggressive DC, and gave the OC to a guy who has had tons of experience. Tiki retired, which actually balanced our lockroom and offense. I have no clue why people wouldn't expect playoffs. We were only getting better and younger finally.

I still remember people on here saying he'd pick top 10 in this years draft. But we showed consistency in making the playoffs, be it a weak NFC. I wouldn't have guessed winning the superbowl, but playoffs was an easy thing in my mind. We got better, our chemistry got better, and we got better coaches.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Throughout all of last year, I felt that the Giants were a Super Bowl-caliber team and I've heard a lot about them being one as well.

I was always scared of the Giants taking the NFC East and deep inside had a deep feeling that the Giants would put us out of the playoffs. And they've proved it on the field by doing what thirteen other teams couldn't do...beat the Patriots en route to the Lombardi Trophy.

The Cowboys became the best team in the NFC with an explosive offense. Our defense was suspect, but scary. We may have imploded at the end of the season, especially against Philly and our playoff loss to the Giants, but all in all we proved to be one of the elite teams. I mean, our coach might get fired if we don't win the Super Bowl....

The Packers are the least likely of that argument because of they have to start over with a new QB. But every other position is pretty solid and top to bottom, they should be just fine.


Now, as far as the Vikings go...

In the games they won, they showed dominance. In the games they lost, they were lousy and really, in most cases, shot themselves in the foot. The other team rarely beat them...they beat themselves.

The defense, alone, is good enough to carry this team into the postseason. If they can become more consistent, even with a below-average QB, they can expect playoffs and a deep run to the Super Bowl.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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Throughout all of last year, I felt that the Giants were a Super Bowl-caliber team and I've heard a lot about them being one as well.

I was always scared of the Giants taking the NFC East and deep inside had a deep feeling that the Giants would put us out of the playoffs. And they've proved it on the field by doing what thirteen other teams couldn't do...beat the Patriots en route to the Lombardi Trophy.
OMG! You are telepathic! ZOMGZ! :D
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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OMG! You are telepathic! ZOMGZ! :D
Oh don't get me wrong, I saw the Giants make the playoffs before the year started, possibly as the top team in the NFC East.

As a Wild Card team, I was scared to death that they would beat us, although I never showed it because the Cowboys are my team, and I must exhibit utmost confidence (or arrogance if you don't like the Cowboys) in my team.

Now, that being said, I did not expect them to beat the Packers, but given that it was in the snow and almost anything can happen in the snow, I could see how they won.

Now, I certainly did not see them beating the Patriots. I put close to two hundred dollars on the Pats with the points and even took the under in that game cuz I thought the Giants wouldn't score enough.

But then again, the Patriots destroyed so many teams throughout the season..even the good ones, so it wasn't a knock on the Giants so much as it was extreme confidence in the Patriots.


Any way you look at it though, I stand by what I said:

The Giants were, and still are, a very dangerous team. I don't think anybody doubted that for a second last season.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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Any way you look at it though, I stand by what I said:

The Giants were, and still are, a very dangerous team. I don't think anybody doubted that for a second last season.
:/ I don't feel the same way about the Giants, I think they just had a great run at exactly the right time.

The off-season has not been kind to them-
  • Their defensive leader is retired
  • Shockey is coming off of injury and is reported to be unhappy
  • Burress is holding out
  • Osi is holding out
  • The defense was raided, They lost some valuable LBers and their starting SS
  • They are starting a Rookie at SS and FS isn't exactly a team strength

This offseason, they are feeling the negative effects of a super-bowl win.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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:/ I don't feel the same way about the Giants, I think they just had a great run at exactly the right time.

The off-season has not been kind to them-
  • Their defensive leader is retired
  • Shockey is coming off of injury and is reported to be unhappy
  • Burress is holding out
  • Osi is holding out
  • The defense was raided, They lost some valuable LBers and their starting SS
  • They are starting a Rookie at SS and FS isn't exactly a team strength

This offseason, they are feeling the negative effects of a super-bowl win.
All things they can overcome though...

Shockey isn't that much of a factor IMO, simply cuz the Giants proved they can play with Boss at the position.

Burress and Osi will be okay. They'll still play, simply for the fact that they wanna prove their worth. I don't take holdouts too serious.

Don't see where you get a rookie at SS. Last time I checked, they signed Sammy Knight to at SS, so if Michael Johnson (2007 rookie) can't handle it, they have players who can. They also have an option of moving Corey Webster there. Kenny Phillips was regarded as the best safety in the draft, so he should be okay at FS and he makes big plays.

Antonio Pierce and Kiwanuka return at LBs and are big play players. I've always liked Wilkerson, and signing Danny Clark will help for depth.

Tuck will pick up where Strahan left out IMO. Strahan's locker room presence will be missed, but I feel the Giants have players who can step up.

I still view them as a dangerous team.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:28 PM    (permalink
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He was probably drunk when he said that.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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He was probably drunk when he said that.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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He was probably drunk when he said that.
Just wondering, but who you referring to?
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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Just wondering, but who you referring to?
I'm guessing Jared Allen since that's what the thread is about. lol
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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I'm guessing Jared Allen since that's what the thread is about. lol
*homer simpson slap to the head*

Lol, yeah, that does make sense...
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Old 06-14-2008, 05:12 AM    (permalink
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The Packers and Cowboys both made the playoffs last year, so they did indeed prove more than the Vikings last year. Also, while they did add Berrian, it's my opinion that he does not instantly create a good passing game. He didn't in Chicago, anyway. He could improve it, but the Vikings will still have a subpar air game unless Jackson takes significant strides from the end of last season.

As far as buster goes, he did say that it is possible that Tarvaris plays better and they make the playoffs, but you seemed to miss that and couldn't look past his post count and rep when you concluded that he was close-minded. Irony much?
Not going to quote myself for you, but I never said that the Vikings proved more than or equal to the Packers or the Cowboys - my original point was that you don't need to be a top 3 team the previous year to go to the superbowl; once you make the play offs you've got a chance. Also, it's my opinion that berrian is a better receiver than Boby Wade. No, I don't think he instantly gives the Vikings a potent pass attack; my original point about Berrian is that the Vikings are addressing their air game (which, Duster had said they weren't in the last line of his post).

As far as Duster goes, he didn't say Tarvaris, he said "if their passing game improves" in a post where he had earlier stated "They have no quarterback". But again (btw this next part is the same point of my original thread, but I'll try to make it more clear this time), he states "As for them winning the NFC or the Super Bowl...come on. Giants, Cowboys, and Packers are all much better teams on paper and have proven it on the field." which simply is a ******** argument if you want to have one.

Hey if we're going to go by paper here lets just list the top 2 most talented teams in each division and then call it a day.

San Diego wins the AFC
Dallas wins the NFC
(or whichever teams you personally believe have the best talent)

there you go. Why do these boards even exist? I mean I pretty much solved half the threads here if you count team boards.

Or you could put a margin of talent to each team and have a realistic debate. I'm not going to turn this into a huge debate over where the vikings are ranked amongst the NFC, but I think we can all agree probably top 8-10 (personally, I'd put them a little bit higher, but for the purpose of not having a 5 page debate regarding the talent of every NFC team, lets just put them at the half way mark).

We can sit here and jack-off about this all week if you want, but its going to come down to opinion. Its my opinion that any team can make the play offs. And any team in the play offs can make the superbowl. There are no guaranteed wins. However, that doesn't mean I don't believe in odds, but even so I think Vikings odds are pretty good at this point and its a silly argument to say "NOPELOLZ DEY CANT WIN CUZ DALLAS / GB / NEW YORK ARE ALL TOO GOOD" when considering this team
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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Until they upgrade the QB position, the Vikes will never make it to the Super Bowl. You can only rely on Adrian Peterson so much
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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:/ I don't feel the same way about the Giants, I think they just had a great run at exactly the right time.

The off-season has not been kind to them-
  • Their defensive leader is retired
  • Shockey is coming off of injury and is reported to be unhappy
  • Burress is holding out
  • Osi is holding out
  • The defense was raided, They lost some valuable LBers and their starting SS
  • They are starting a Rookie at SS and FS isn't exactly a team strength

This offseason, they are feeling the negative effects of a super-bowl win.

Shockey is unhappy that's correct. Burress is holding out for now, BUT osi is not holding out. Not this year at least. I would bet next season he does.

The defense was raided? We lost 1 safety and 2 LBs. Wilson was a loss but we signed Knight and drafted KP. Torbor was ok at most, never panned out like we hoped, and Mitchell was solid for the year he came, but we drafted 2 more Lbs.

Let's not exaggerate the situation.

And yeah we did have a good run at a good time, and guess, what? Those players will be back again. So we have now big game experience and still one of the youngest teams in the NFL. And more importantly, we kept our coaching staff together, which if someone was keeping score is the first time that's happened in a while.
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Old 06-14-2008, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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All things they can overcome though...

Shockey isn't that much of a factor IMO, simply cuz the Giants proved they can play with Boss at the position.

Burress and Osi will be okay. They'll still play, simply for the fact that they wanna prove their worth. I don't take holdouts too serious.

Don't see where you get a rookie at SS. Last time I checked, they signed Sammy Knight to at SS, so if Michael Johnson (2007 rookie) can't handle it, they have players who can. They also have an option of moving Corey Webster there. Kenny Phillips was regarded as the best safety in the draft, so he should be okay at FS and he makes big plays.

Antonio Pierce and Kiwanuka return at LBs and are big play players. I've always liked Wilkerson, and signing Danny Clark will help for depth.

Tuck will pick up where Strahan left out IMO. Strahan's locker room presence will be missed, but I feel the Giants have players who can step up.

I still view them as a dangerous team.
How is Shockey not a factor? Just because they went on a hot run and won without him in the lineup, doesn't mean that they wouldn't prefer to have a Pro-Bowl TE in there. Do you realize that the running game suffered when Shockey wasn't in there? He's one of the best blocking tight ends in the game. Kevin Boss catching a couple of long passes means nothing in the fact that that the Giants would prefer to have Shockey there. Eventually weaknesses will be exploited.

I agree that Burress and Umenyiora will end up playing, but at what cost? Plaxico is going to want his money, because he's getting up there in age and he keeps getting hurt. If he goes out and screws up his toe again, what are the chances the Giants are gonna wanna pay him the money he deserves now? Osi will eventually get paid, either this off-season or the next, so get ready to break the bank.

I don't understand how having Sammy Knight at SS is anything to brag about. Dude's about 48 already and he has linebacker speed. And the slow kind. Kenny Phillips at safety is a rookie at the end of the day. No matter how talented he might be.

All in all, i don't expect this coming regular season to be any different than the last one. It'll be someone else's turn to get hot at the end of the season and win some close games.
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Old 06-14-2008, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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How is Shockey not a factor? Just because they went on a hot run and won without him in the lineup, doesn't mean that they wouldn't prefer to have a Pro-Bowl TE in there. Do you realize that the running game suffered when Shockey wasn't in there? He's one of the best blocking tight ends in the game. Kevin Boss catching a couple of long passes means nothing in the fact that that the Giants would prefer to have Shockey there. Eventually weaknesses will be exploited.
Sadly too many football fans, giants fans and non giants alike missed that point. Usually it's the popular, "we won without him, let him go" type talk is running rampant throughout various giants MB. I don't expect non giants fans to really have a clue on it, but when Giants fans think it's simply that easy, it's boggles my mind.

Yes Eli and the passing game did well, but our running game, mainly our bread and butter rushing play suffered big time. Jacobs, going against playoff teams, where the intensity is higher, didn't do well, because our bread and butter play wasn't effective. Our TEs couldn't seal the edge like Shockey used to.

I am sure if we do get rid of him, we would change stuff up in terms of rushing, or I hope Gilbride is smart enough to. I would hate to see us running power to both sides without Shockey, and screwing up our running game that way.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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How is Shockey not a factor? Just because they went on a hot run and won without him in the lineup, doesn't mean that they wouldn't prefer to have a Pro-Bowl TE in there. Do you realize that the running game suffered when Shockey wasn't in there? He's one of the best blocking tight ends in the game. Kevin Boss catching a couple of long passes means nothing in the fact that that the Giants would prefer to have Shockey there. Eventually weaknesses will be exploited.

I agree that Burress and Umenyiora will end up playing, but at what cost? Plaxico is going to want his money, because he's getting up there in age and he keeps getting hurt. If he goes out and screws up his toe again, what are the chances the Giants are gonna wanna pay him the money he deserves now? Osi will eventually get paid, either this off-season or the next, so get ready to break the bank.

I don't understand how having Sammy Knight at SS is anything to brag about. Dude's about 48 already and he has linebacker speed. And the slow kind. Kenny Phillips at safety is a rookie at the end of the day. No matter how talented he might be.

All in all, i don't expect this coming regular season to be any different than the last one. It'll be someone else's turn to get hot at the end of the season and win some close games.
Of course the Giants would prefer to have Shockey in there. There's no doubt about that. And I'm not saying that they should get rid of them just because they won the Super Bowl without him. But that fact is, they won the Super Bowl without him. Shockey doesn't HAVE to be in the game for them to win. But things work a lot easier when he is.

As far as your Burress/Umenyiora argument goes, I agree with that as well. But I posted my argument on Burress/Umenyiora in terms of what they will do on the field this season, not what happens next offseason.

I'm not bragging on Knight being the safety, but he does provide them with a veteran backup who can step in and also as a mentor to the younger safeties. I think it'll go a long way in how good Phillips and co. will be. Sure, they'll make their rookie mistakes, but this team is talented enough on defense to make up for those mistakes. As the season progresses, the younger safeties should be exponentially better than at the start (as is usually the case), and that team weakness is good enough to make another run at the Super Bowl.

Also, the Giants have a weakness right now at safety. But every team, including the Patriots, Colts, Cowboys, Chargers, Packers, Jaguars, Steelers (and whatever other team you wanna throw in the argument) all have a weakness that can be exploited. To say that the Giants aren't a dangerous team because they have a weakness at safety is equal to saying Harvard isn't a good school because they don't have the best science department.
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Old 06-15-2008, 04:45 AM    (permalink
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He was probably drunk when he said that.
I'm guesing it was a phone interview out of his car too.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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I want to see them make the playoffs first and get some consistency with that before talking, to the media, about superbowl.
good use, of, commmmmas...
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:27 AM    (permalink
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Not going to quote myself for you, but I never said that the Vikings proved more than or equal to the Packers or the Cowboys - my original point was that you don't need to be a top 3 team the previous year to go to the superbowl; once you make the play offs you've got a chance. Also, it's my opinion that berrian is a better receiver than Boby Wade. No, I don't think he instantly gives the Vikings a potent pass attack; my original point about Berrian is that the Vikings are addressing their air game (which, Duster had said they weren't in the last line of his post).

As far as Duster goes, he didn't say Tarvaris, he said "if their passing game improves" in a post where he had earlier stated "They have no quarterback". But again (btw this next part is the same point of my original thread, but I'll try to make it more clear this time), he states "As for them winning the NFC or the Super Bowl...come on. Giants, Cowboys, and Packers are all much better teams on paper and have proven it on the field." which simply is a ******** argument if you want to have one.

Hey if we're going to go by paper here lets just list the top 2 most talented teams in each division and then call it a day.

San Diego wins the AFC
Dallas wins the NFC
(or whichever teams you personally believe have the best talent)

there you go. Why do these boards even exist? I mean I pretty much solved half the threads here if you count team boards.

Or you could put a margin of talent to each team and have a realistic debate. I'm not going to turn this into a huge debate over where the vikings are ranked amongst the NFC, but I think we can all agree probably top 8-10 (personally, I'd put them a little bit higher, but for the purpose of not having a 5 page debate regarding the talent of every NFC team, lets just put them at the half way mark).

We can sit here and jack-off about this all week if you want, but its going to come down to opinion. Its my opinion that any team can make the play offs. And any team in the play offs can make the superbowl. There are no guaranteed wins. However, that doesn't mean I don't believe in odds, but even so I think Vikings odds are pretty good at this point and its a silly argument to say "NOPELOLZ DEY CANT WIN CUZ DALLAS / GB / NEW YORK ARE ALL TOO GOOD" when considering this team
On paper, do you think the Vikings are a better team than the Giants, Cowboys, or Packers? How about even the Redskins, Seahawks, or Buccaneers?
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Old 06-16-2008, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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On paper, do you think the Vikings are a better team than the Giants, Cowboys, or Packers? How about even the Redskins, Seahawks, or Buccaneers?
Did he say that? No. He said that the Vikings can make the playoffs and once in the playoffs, anything can happen.

But yes, the Vikings are better on paper than the Redskins, Seahawks, and Bucs - and maybe the Giants and Packers. You could only pass on them and they upgraded their pass defense greatly with Jared Allen - arguably the best, but definately a top 5 DE - and Madieu Williams. Their defensive line is Definately the best on paper and will be a headache for every offensive line. Their passing game was the weak point on offense last year, so they got Bernard Berrian - not a top ten receiver or anything, but enough of a deep threat to keep teams honest and open up lanes for Chester and some other guy who's name I forget and people say is really, really, really good. Really good that guy is. Sidney Rice will also benefit from having Berrian on the other side.

It obviously all comes down to TJack, but if he progresses as is expected, the Vikings will more than likely win the Central considering the problems the Bears have, the Favre transition in Green Bay, and Matt Millen. And Anything can happen in the playoffs. If he doesn't progress, than the Vikes are probably Effed in the A. Also, the McKinnie situation could end up being a terrible problem.

But ****, the Lions could win the Central, and the Falcons and Niners could make the playoffs. We don't know, as bengalsrocket said, what will happen - injuries, players playing out of their mind, players Not playing out of their mind, rookie additions, etc, etc - because they still play the games.

So basically, you're a dumbass.

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You don't go from zero to hero in a year, especially when they haven't even addressed their biggest issue, the passing game.
To the first part of your statement - Eli Manning.

To the second part - Berrian is enough of a threat, and we don't know how it's going to gel yet. Saying they didn't do enough, when they added the best receiver on the free agent market not named Moss and have a young developing QB - again, Eli Manning - and a blossoming receiver on the other side is, I dunno, Dumb?

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Anyway, Jackson was supposedly looking great last off season too but actually got worse at the end of the season in my opinion. You can't say all the pieces are there right now without seeing improvement from him. A competent QB is a big piece.
No. ****.

But, considering his best game was the last game of the year - when they needed a win and he brought them back from two touchdowns in the 4th by Passing the ball - I'd say you probably don't know what you're talking about.



Contrarianism is fun people, but if you don't think the Vikings have a legitimate chance at doing damage in the playoffs, you're taking it too far.

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