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Old 03-01-2007, 04:30 AM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by LSUALUM99 View Post
I guess that's where we differ. I think that Bobby Carpenter is the SOLB. I see no other reason why. If he's not, then why did we draft him last year?

If we want speed inside I think Burnett should move inside more than Carp. I think an OLB would be a waste of a pick in the first round.

I don't see how you can say that we're better off at CB than at OLB. None of our starting LB's is over 30 (Assuming either Carp or Burnett is the starter next year) and 2 of our top 3 CB's are 30+.
I guess so. If we address FS in FA and Carp is the future at SOLB in Phillips' plan, then I could deal with a corner... I'd much rather trade down, pick up Tyler and another pick... but... trade talk is always day dream and not worthy of real discussion imo.

I'm not ready to assume Carp is the future at SOLB. Right now he's had a year at ILB and is still slated there, so until news breaks that he's making a move to the outside, I'm hesitant on making that assumption. Could happen, just saying, I'm not ready to assume it.

I do think that we did draft Carp to be our SOLB originally, but I think his role changed when BP saw him closer up in training camp. I think that if he was going to be the future at SOLB, then BP would've keep him behind Ellis.

As for Burnett, I like his fit at WOLB behind Ware.

As far as our needs on Defense, I'll break it down Bill Parcells style:

Need to have:
NT
FS
SOLB

Would like to have:
Donnie Edwards
Veteran DE

Nice to have:
CB
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:35 AM    (permalink
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I guess so. If we address FS in FA and Carp is the future at SOLB in Phillips' plan, then I could deal with a corner... I'd much rather trade down, pick up Tyler and another pick... but... trade talk is always day dream and not worthy of real discussion imo.

I'm not ready to assume Carp is the future at SOLB. Right now he's had a year at ILB and is still slated there, so until news breaks that he's making a move to the outside, I'm hesitant on making that assumption. Could happen, just saying, I'm not ready to assume it.

I do think that we did draft Carp to be our SOLB originally, but I think his role changed when BP saw him closer up in training camp. I think that if he was going to be the future at SOLB, then BP would've keep him behind Ellis.

As for Burnett, I like his fit at WOLB behind Ware.

As far as our needs on Defense, I'll break it down Bill Parcells style:

Need to have:
NT
FS
SOLB

Would like to have:
Donnie Edwards
Veteran DE

Nice to have:
CB

Would you consider drafting another OLB in the first round?
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Old 03-01-2007, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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What do you mean he's had a year at ILB. He played primarily SOLB this year. The last game of the season he played almost exclusively at SOLB and came away with a monster game.

I do not think that Donnie Edwards would even start for us this year. Burnett has all the physical tools to play inside or outside. If you feel that Carpenter is the ILB then you have Ellis on the outside and Burnett on the outside. I just dont think that Edwards is even a starter for us....signing him does nothing for me at all.

I do agree that James and Ayodele do not offer a 'donnie edwards esque' player in the middle. But then again, when did he have that in Buffalo either? I do not want a guy that will be 34 in April to be signed on defense or offense (other than QB, that is WAYYYY too old for a FA). I think Burnett has the similar physical ability as Donnie Edwards and is quite a bit Bigger (Edwards is listed at 227 lbs).
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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I guess that's where we differ. I think that Bobby Carpenter is the SOLB. I see no other reason why. If he's not, then why did we draft him last year?

If we want speed inside I think Burnett should move inside more than Carp. I think an OLB would be a waste of a pick in the first round.

I don't see how you can say that we're better off at CB than at OLB. None of our starting LB's is over 30 (Assuming either Carp or Burnett is the starter next year) and 2 of our top 3 CB's are 30+.
Bobby Carpenter is tricky. His development can be severely hindered over the course of the next 2 years if not handled properly. In BP's scheme, he is a SOLB, in that style of scheme the SAM is asked to play like a Carl Banks/Mike Vrabel type of role.

But in Phillips scheme, theres almost no distinction between WILL and SAM. Its essentially 2 pass rushing DE/OLBs on the edges. Theyre almost exclusively pass rushers. So in that case, you want Ware and Ellis on the edge, and Carpenter inside. Phillips uses his SILB the way BP uses his SAM. Carpenter is known for having good TE coverage, coupled with the ability to rush the passer and thats the role of the SILB for Wade.

The problem is, all this moving around will hinder his development. He needs one role, and he needs to work on that one role. So that could be a problem if not handled correctly.
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Old 03-01-2007, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3o2ULj5IsQ

This video make me believe we should draft Nelson. With Roy Williams and Nelson, WRs should be aware that they may get hurt when they play us . If we draft Nelson, he may start over Watkins. I don't think any CB will start over Henry this year and I don't think any CB will have big impact as Nelson for the cowboys this year.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Bobby Carpenter is tricky. His development can be severely hindered over the course of the next 2 years if not handled properly. In BP's scheme, he is a SOLB, in that style of scheme the SAM is asked to play like a Carl Banks/Mike Vrabel type of role.

But in Phillips scheme, theres almost no distinction between WILL and SAM. Its essentially 2 pass rushing DE/OLBs on the edges. Theyre almost exclusively pass rushers. So in that case, you want Ware and Ellis on the edge, and Carpenter inside. Phillips uses his SILB the way BP uses his SAM. Carpenter is known for having good TE coverage, coupled with the ability to rush the passer and thats the role of the SILB for Wade.

The problem is, all this moving around will hinder his development. He needs one role, and he needs to work on that one role. So that could be a problem if not handled correctly.
That's HUGE. Just further solidifies why Carp should play SILB.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.
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I just wanna warn you guys not to take TNew41 too seriously. He's....let's just say, special. He's fairly harmless, though. He just needs several years of seasoning before he tries to make any more points, is all.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:17 PM    (permalink
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That's HUGE. Just further solidifies why Carp should play SILB.
I like how he wouldve been used in BP's scheme. I think thats where he's at his best. He can still work at SAM in Wade's scheme, but he's not as good of a pass rusher as a Greg Ellis.

The main concern should be his ability against the run at ILB. Its very different from the role he was used to with BP. Now he's gonna have to butt heads with olinemen. Can he do it? We don't know. It worked fine and dandy in SD for Edwards because of Jamal Williams, but Carp doesn't have that anchor in Dallas. He will have to hit the weightroom and get stronger. But he can't get bigger in the process, because that will hinder his coverage skills.

He has to work on technique and strength while maintaining speed and body weight.

So like I said, this is very complicated and could have some consequences. But it also could have big rewards. How its handled will be very important. Like I said earlier, the most important piece of this Dallas defense is TC. That will be very important in how this defense develops.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:22 PM    (permalink
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So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.
I totally agree with you, LSU. You always make good points..
During the wildcard game (the only one Carpenter started this year) he was putting some pressure.. More than Ware.. He battled down two passes in front of Hasselbeck while rushing him.. So I think that he could be a 10 sacks guy for us, and I also think that in Phillips scheme the OLB will have to cover the RB and the TE too and not only rush the QB everytime..
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.
I gotta look at more games then. From what I saw, Phillips came off the edge early and often, and Edwards covered the TE. If Phillips dropped back, it was a soft zone, something anybody could do. He never had man responsibilties with the TE from what I saw. I could be wrong though.

I agree with everything you said about Carp. The thing is, I don't know if he's a pass rusher first/coverage 2nd type of player. To me he's a great coverage LB who can provide quality pass rushing if called upon. Like a Marcus Washington type. Im not saying you guys should draft a OLB, but with what Wade likes to do, I don't think it would be an entirely bad idea either.

You make a good point on Ellis. Its tough, you don't know what will happen until Wade gets them in TC and sees what he can do with the pieces he has.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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to quote a earlier post of mine
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Theres no sense in keeping Glenn and Henry together at the same position, with a total of 21 years of NFL experience. And meanwhile(like you said we draft Reggie Nelson to play FS), we have a total of 1 year of NFL experience between Watkins and a rookie safety like Nelson. Does not make sense.
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Old 03-01-2007, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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If Phillips style 3-4 defense is to have two pass rushing OLB's on the outside, then Ware/Ellis makes sense. Then that would even justify drafting someone like Jarvis Moss in the 1st round. Let's face it, Ellis might have 2 more good years in him.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.
First of all, Carp wouldn't be "making a move" to ILB. He'd be staying there. Secondly, Carp would fare well at SOLB or SILB...perhaps even WILB. We could debate back and forth where he should or shouldn't play, but until Phillips unfolds that info, we're pretty much left to assume. I'm assuming he's staying where he is. You're assuming he's moving to the outside. It's a flip of the coin.

Another thing is, we need to be able to generate a pass rush from the middle linebackers and Carp should fare well in doing so.

I agree with you on Ellis. That's why I think it needs to be addressed... and the first round is a great place to do it.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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I totally agree with you, LSU. You always make good points..
During the wildcard game (the only one Carpenter started this year) he was putting some pressure.. More than Ware.. He battled down two passes in front of Hasselbeck while rushing him.. So I think that he could be a 10 sacks guy for us, and I also think that in Phillips scheme the OLB will have to cover the RB and the TE too and not only rush the QB everytime..
One game shouldn't determine the career position of a player. How's that for a good point?
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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One game shouldn't determine the career position of a player. How's that for a good point?
You're right, but that was the only game he started so far.. And Carpenter played OLB since Ellis went down.. Singleton and Carpenter were playing opposite Ware on the outside.. If I remember right he never played a snap on the inside this year.. He was in the nickel package and alternating series with Singleton on the strong side..
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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I gotta look at more games then. From what I saw, Phillips came off the edge early and often, and Edwards covered the TE. If Phillips dropped back, it was a soft zone, something anybody could do. He never had man responsibilties with the TE from what I saw. I could be wrong though.

I agree with everything you said about Carp. The thing is, I don't know if he's a pass rusher first/coverage 2nd type of player. To me he's a great coverage LB who can provide quality pass rushing if called upon. Like a Marcus Washington type. Im not saying you guys should draft a OLB, but with what Wade likes to do, I don't think it would be an entirely bad idea either.

You make a good point on Ellis. Its tough, you don't know what will happen until Wade gets them in TC and sees what he can do with the pieces he has.
I hear that! Donnie has been an amazing coverage LB with range that allowed him to be everywhere... stuffing the run or dropping back in coverage.

Exactly why I want him here. He knows the ins and outs of WP's scheme and will be able to be a mentor to our young guys while still being able to play at a high level when he's on the field. He's not young anymore and fitting him in a rotation would be ideal for him. It must come at a reasonable cost however.
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Theres no sense in keeping Glenn and Henry together at the same position, with a total of 21 years of NFL experience. And meanwhile(like you said we draft Reggie Nelson to play FS), we have a total of 1 year of NFL experience between Watkins and a rookie safety like Nelson. Does not make sense.
That sir, makes absolutely no sense to me. Glenn is our nickel back. Technically a different position than Henry. Secondly, who says you have to even out your NFL experience at every position in order to make sure everything is fine and dandy? That is the worst logic ever!
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Old 03-01-2007, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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I agree D-Unit. No offense BigMac, but that is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Moving Henry to FS is so stupid. He is one of the best #2 CBs in the league. He is going to stay there. We wouldn't even be talking about this if we had pressure.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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I agree D-Unit. No offense BigMac, but that is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Moving Henry to FS is so stupid. He is one of the best #2 CBs in the league. He is going to stay there. We wouldn't even be talking about this if we had pressure.
oh because your the master of dumb posts right?!?!?! HAHAHAHA

oh wait... you are.

Listen my main reasoning for moving Henry over is because hes taller and great coverage skills. You never read that part.
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Old 03-01-2007, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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I agree D-Unit. No offense BigMac, but that is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Moving Henry to FS is so stupid. He is one of the best #2 CBs in the league. He is going to stay there. We wouldn't even be talking about this if we had pressure.
Henry top #2 corner in the league? No thank you. He is a great player but he is not that good. I think moving him to FS is the better move if we get a Corner, He had knee problems and therefore had trouble in man to man. I think Henry can be the cover guy we need to help Roy up top. IMO Henry isn't lockdown enough as much as he gets thrown at, if he were the best #2 then no one would have any passing TD's against us except for deep in zone over the middle.
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Old 03-01-2007, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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oh because your the master of dumb posts right?!?!?! HAHAHAHA

oh wait... you are.

Listen my main reasoning for moving Henry over is because hes taller and great coverage skills. You never read that part.
Actually, height could be a hindrance at the FS position. If youre too tall, you'll have a harder time changing direction, which is something safeties must do very well.

That is why Watkins fell to the 5th despite his sick measureables. He was considered too tall and people questioned his change of direction abilities. It can be great for TE coverage, which is why I like the idea of sticking Watkins on the TE, but it can also have its downside as well.

The prototypical safety height is like 6 0", maybe 6 1.
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Old 03-01-2007, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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next year LB should be:

LOLB ILB ILB ROLB
1.Carp Burnett Bradie James Ware
2.Ellis Ayodele 3rdBest ILB in 3rd best OLB in TC
TC
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Old 03-01-2007, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Actually Carp has a lot of pass rushing skills...when he was recruited to college he was a DE....and was until they decided to put him at LB...idk how many sacks he had his last year in college but he was recruited as a DE...i think our LB core should look like this...

LOLB ILB ILB ROLB
1.Carp Burnett Bradie James Ware
2.Ellis Ayodele 3rdBest ILB in 3rd best OLB in TC
TC
Actually, nobody is saying he lacks pass rush ability. Now, saying that doesn't mean I think he's a sack artist, cause I don't think that he is that. Just that he has some ability. I question his speed and to turn the corner and his pass rush moves/technique. I like his fit in the middle. When was the last time we got pressure on the QB from our ILBs? Well, isn't that part of what makes the 3-4 so great? The ability to disguise the blitz from any angle? That part has been missing in our defense. Bobby in the middle sounds like a great way to provide that.
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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OLB in the first round? We have way too much money invested in Bradie and Akin in the middle to be moving Carp to one of the ILB positions. Carp was drafted to be a pass rushing OLB, he showed some flashes in his limited play. With some guys it just takes longer for them to get it, I'm not ready to go spend another 1st round selection on a LB that we dont even need. Why add another LB to a solid 5 LB mix? Doesnt make any sense and to give up on Carp as an outside pass rusher at this point, once again makes zero sense.
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Old 03-01-2007, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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OLB in the first round? We have way too much money invested in Bradie and Akin in the middle to be moving Carp to one of the ILB positions. Carp was drafted to be a pass rushing OLB, he showed some flashes in his limited play. With some guys it just takes longer for them to get it, I'm not ready to go spend another 1st round selection on a LB that we dont even need. Why add another LB to a solid 5 LB mix? Doesnt make any sense and to give up on Carp as an outside pass rusher at this point, once again makes zero sense.
Tell that to Wade Phillips who has been interviewing the likes of Dan Bazuin, Charles Johnson and Brian Robison... Notice a trend? Make sense now?
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