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Old 06-23-2008, 11:25 AM    (permalink
Crickett
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Originally Posted by Duster View Post
Tight end blocking is about as important as wide receiver blocking in today's NFL.
If this were true, the NFL wouldn't have TE's. Just 3-4 WR sets. TE's are there to be the dual receiving/blocking option.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Whoa whoa whoa guys...I know you think they put Vernon Davis at #4 on potential alone, but Davis WAS actually the 4th best TE in the NFC last year...even with the horrible oline/QB/o-coordinator.

He had the quietest 52 catch year for a TE ever...

52 catches for 509 yards and 4 TDs on a HORRIFIC offense.

based on catches he is #4 and on yards #6 in the NFC...in a decent offense he is going to be even better...so that #4 ranking is solid.

Oh and he is a great blocker.
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Old 06-23-2008, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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I was going to say the eagles are too high when I sas #6 but looking at the teams behind them I can't really argue with it.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Crickett View Post
If this were true, the NFL wouldn't have TE's. Just 3-4 WR sets. TE's are there to be the dual receiving/blocking option.
They are mostly their for matchup reasons. Yes, they are better blockers than wide receivers usually but that's such a small part of their job now.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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Potential shouldnt be enough to be ranked 4th though. You can have all the talent and potential in the world, if u dont show it, u shouldnt be ranked that high
Well regarding Davis there really isn't any question about what he can do. I suppose you can say if the stats aren't all there, then he and the rest of the tightends on his team shouldn't be ranked so high.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TheGreatEscape View Post
Not in the giants scheme, Shockey's a huge part of our dominant run game. If you don't believe me go check Jacobs' stats after Shockey went down, with no one to seal the edge Jacobs wasn't nearly as effective.
Thought I would take a look at Jacobs stats after Shockey went down. He finished the game Shockey went down in with 130 yards, 85 of which were in the second half. 145 yards against Buffalo. 67 against New England.

As for the team in general they had 139, 289 and 79 yards, barely a drop off as far as I can see. No doubt Shockey is an intergral part but don't overstate things, I still rank the Giants second

In the NFC East I rate it like this.

Receiving: Witten, Cooley, Shockey
Blocking: Shockey, Witten, Cooley
Overall: Witten, Shockey, Cooley.

As these players so go the teams. I do think the addition of Fred Davis to the Redskins is very interesting and he could swap these rankings around.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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Thought I would take a look at Jacobs stats after Shockey went down. He finished the game Shockey went down in with 130 yards, 85 of which were in the second half. 145 yards against Buffalo. 67 against New England.

As for the team in general they had 139, 289 and 79 yards, barely a drop off as far as I can see. No doubt Shockey is an intergral part but don't overstate things, I still rank the Giants second

In the NFC East I rate it like this.

Receiving: Witten, Cooley, Shockey
Blocking: Shockey, Witten, Cooley
Overall: Witten, Shockey, Cooley.

As these players so go the teams. I do think the addition of Fred Davis to the Redskins is very interesting and he could swap these rankings around.
The Giants averaged 1.5 ypc less without Shockey in the lineup. Thats how critical he is to our run game.


Of course thats because we run a lot of power and Shockey was the guy who sealed the outside, so worst case scenario we can alter our scheme to make him less important, but as it stands now, he's critical to our success in the run game.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm not so sure if Shockey is overrated as a pass catcher. He may not stretch the seams like he used to when he was younger (before a handful of injuries), but I think he could do more. But as you said, the offense isn't geared on getting the most out of him as a receiver.
He's still top 5. Its just that he runs the wrong route a lot of times, and his hands aren't the best.


Despite all of that, he's still great. If he just learned how to fix that though instead of being an arrogant stubborn ass, he'd probably be the best TE in the league. But he's not.

Personally, my patience with him is very thin. We're fine without him, if he still acts like a *****, we need to get rid of him.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Well regarding Davis there really isn't any question about what he can do. I suppose you can say if the stats aren't all there, then he and the rest of the tightends on his team shouldn't be ranked so high.
There no doubt he can get open and make plays, but he hasn't proven this. He proven that he more of a bust, not saying he can't be good, but for now he hasn't proven a thing. Like you said, his hands haven't been his best attribute in his NFL career, and he hasn't played an entire season yet.


Edit: BigBlue, I'm not sure you guys would be fine, maybe if he was traded during the draft. Shockey, even if he not having his best game, depends coverage from the safety and linebacker, this opening passing lanes for the wideouts. Coaches don't want him to have good games. He demands double coverages, and is also an excellent blocker.
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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.

Personally, my patience with him is very thin. We're fine without him, if he still acts like a *****, we need to get rid of him.
I think Boss if he plays to the potential he showed late in the year will make it an easier decision. That said Shockey gives you all you would ever want from a TE, he would have to be really, really, disruptive for me to let him go if he is still performing.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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The Giants averaged 1.5 ypc less without Shockey in the lineup. Thats how critical he is to our run game.


Of course thats because we run a lot of power and Shockey was the guy who sealed the outside, so worst case scenario we can alter our scheme to make him less important, but as it stands now, he's critical to our success in the run game.
That simple concept is something the media and other Giants fans missed. They praise Eli, and say we don't need shockey, but he was a huge part of our running game, especially the concepts we run with our RBs. We need him from that perspective.

Also, if we do get rid of shockey, we better change up our scheme. It would be a 100% overhaul because most of our runs are power, or something creative to the outside. Hopefully we run more ISO and lead as well, if Shockey leaves. I would like us to run alot more zone runs, but Jacobs's vision is not good, so I don't know how that would work out.
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Old 06-23-2008, 01:55 PM    (permalink
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Thought I would take a look at Jacobs stats after Shockey went down. He finished the game Shockey went down in with 130 yards, 85 of which were in the second half. 145 yards against Buffalo. 67 against New England.

As for the team in general they had 139, 289 and 79 yards, barely a drop off as far as I can see. No doubt Shockey is an intergral part but don't overstate things, I still rank the Giants second

In the NFC East I rate it like this.

Receiving: Witten, Cooley, Shockey
Blocking: Shockey, Witten, Cooley
Overall: Witten, Shockey, Cooley.

As these players so go the teams. I do think the addition of Fred Davis to the Redskins is very interesting and he could swap these rankings around.
As BBD said, check the YPC because they really went down, he still accumilated yards but it took a lot more carries. A 1.5 difference in YPC over the course of the season would equal a good 400+ yards per season from our running game. That's a pretty significant loss.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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The difference between Shockey and Cooley is not as vast as you giants fans make it out to be. Yes he is the better overall blocker and does good things for your schemes but Cooley is a superior pass catching threat and blocks well within the scheme we had here under Gibbs where he served more as the h-back. I am very interested to see how Zorn will use Cooley and Fred Davis in 2 TE sets in our new west coast offense.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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The difference between Shockey and Cooley is not as vast as you giants fans make it out to be. Yes he is the better overall blocker and does good things for your schemes but Cooley is a superior pass catching threat and blocks well within the scheme we had here under Gibbs where he served more as the h-back. I am very interested to see how Zorn will use Cooley and Fred Davis in 2 TE sets in our new west coast offense.
I think the two are very similar in there level of play although i do rank Shockey a smidge higher, the big difference is Boss and our depth, as Boss has proven he can make big plays in the clutch.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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I think the two are very similar in there level of play although i do rank Shockey a smidge higher, the big difference is Boss and our depth, as Boss has proven he can make big plays in the clutch.
Thats fine I'll accept you have the depth now but I have a feeling that will change after Fred Davis' rookie season. And for the record I have Cooley higher than Shockey definitely at this point. Cooley has proven to have had the more consistent career, Shockey has gone on the decline but he is still young enough to regain his true skill level.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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Thats fine I'll accept you have the depth now but I have a feeling that will change after Fred Davis' rookie season. And for the record I have Cooley higher than Shockey definitely at this point. Cooley has proven to have had the more consistent career, Shockey has gone on the decline but he is still young enough to regain his true skill level.
See that's where you're wrong, Shockey hasn't gone on the decline, he's jsut become a different player. under fassle he was a primary receiving option, under coughlin he's supposed to be a blocker and decoy. And he's excelled in both systems which is why I have a lot of respect for Shockey's game.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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See that's where you're wrong, Shockey hasn't gone on the decline, he's jsut become a different player. under fassle he was a primary receiving option, under coughlin he's supposed to be a blocker and decoy. And he's excelled in both systems which is why I have a lot of respect for Shockey's game.
I agree we use him alot differently from when Payton was our OC. If anything he is sacrificing recieving stats for helping us out in the running game in this current system. I wouldn't say he is on the decline either, but he is injury prone, that's for damn sure.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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On any message board Shockey vs Cooley is always the biggest debate amongst Giants vs Skins fans its kind of funny no Giants fan would trade Shockey for Cooley and no Skins fan would trade Cooley for Shockey, I love it.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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On any message board Shockey vs Cooley is always the biggest debate amongst Giants vs Skins fans its kind of funny no Giants fan would trade Shockey for Cooley and no Skins fan would trade Cooley for Shockey, I love it.
I wouldn't mind trading for Cooley. But what you say is homerism at it's best. I personally want good players. If I can get Cooley and Shockey on the same team, I would love to see how Jacobs does with two good run blocking TEs.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't mind trading for Cooley. But what you say is homerism at it's best. I personally want good players. If I can get Cooley and Shockey on the same team, I would love to see how Jacobs does with two good run blocking TEs.
Yea I wouldn't mind having Shockey either to bolster our run game but what I mean is a straight up swap you wont find anyone imo.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 703SKINS202 View Post
Yea I wouldn't mind having Shockey either to bolster our run game but what I mean is a straight up swap you wont find anyone imo.
What I think we love as Skins fans is that Cooley has been our most consistent weapon in the past four years especially from a TD perspective. Add in that personality and tenacity with which he plays and I wouldn't ever swap him. We basically have Cooley locked up for a long time. Another five of six seasons like those he has given us and we will be real happy.
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Old 06-23-2008, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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There no doubt he can get open and make plays, but he hasn't proven this. He proven that he more of a bust, not saying he can't be good, but for now he hasn't proven a thing. Like you said, his hands haven't been his best attribute in his NFL career, and he hasn't played an entire season yet.
Ummm, yes he has. He's usually an open target and can break tackles and take it the distance. But when Trent Dilfer is throwing you the ball and he's getting sacked all the time you don't have may opportunities to showcase your talents. And when you're asked to block a huge amount of the time. So no, he hasn't proven he's a bust because of circumstances he has no control over. That's ridiculous.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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I actually think Shockey has the better build/high ceiling, however Eli vastly under uses him, especially in the red zone. Shockey is used as a check down way too much when in reality Eli should be looking to give him the ball every time. Cooley finds the holes set in by Moss and El and attacks them, and Campbell usually finds him.

But yes like somebody said, Cooley is a huge fan favorite. I have no problem being a homer out of my ass for that guy.

EDIT: 2k posts :)
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Old 06-23-2008, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Its like they are basing this off of Madden ratings....

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EDIT: 2k posts :)
congrats

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Old 06-23-2008, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Its like they are basing this off of Madden ratings....



congrats
Shockey is rated higher on Madden than Cooley lol.

http://sports.ign.com/articles/879/879251p3.html
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