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Old 06-23-2008, 11:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bruce Banner View Post
Davis has done absolutely nothing in the NFL and his freakish athletic ability doesn't automatically make him warrant high placement when you compare him to other tight ends in the NFC.

A small sample size of plays means nothing.
You can say that stat wise. But that's not really his fault due to bonehead coordinators like Jim Hostler leaving the dude in to block all the time and being apart of a horrible offense.

I agree that the group shouldn't highly placed, but not due to what hasn't been shown. Because Davis has enough plays that showcases his abilities.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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It is like a stereotype.
If a guy has an attitude and has rare athletic ability on offense, he won't block....
Obviously at skill positions only.
Shockey is a tremendous athlete and he has a slight (ok huge) swagger but he is a true competitor.
This false reputation as an incompetent blocker is simply a stereotype.
vernon davis included
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:49 AM    (permalink
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You can say that stat wise. But that's not really his fault due to bonehead coordinators like Jim Hostler leaving the dude in to block all the time and being apart of a horrible offense.

I agree that the group shouldn't highly placed, but not due to what hasn't been shown. Because Davis has enough plays that showcases his abilities.
you complain that the o-line is a terrible blocking unit, but you call Hostler an bonehead for leaving Davis in to block? I guess you want your QB killed.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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you complain that the o-line is a terrible blocking unit, but you call Hostler an bonehead for leaving Davis in to block? I guess you want your QB killed.
when you have a te with 4.38 speed you don't leave him in to block. even if he was blocking for most of the plays, that's still part of a TE's job, so his blocking ability should be thrown into the equation too, not just receiving production. i'd like to add that vd is a tremendous blocker
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:53 AM    (permalink
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when you have a te with 4.38 speed you don't leave him in to block. even if he was blocking for most of the plays, that's still part of a TE's job, so his blocking ability should be thrown into the equation too, not just receiving production. i'd like to add that vd is a tremendous blocker
You seriously don't want to nickname a player "vd" ever. Really.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:23 AM    (permalink
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You seriously don't want to nickname a player "vd" ever. Really.
lol niner fans have vd fever
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:27 AM    (permalink
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i'd like to add that vd is a tremendous blocker
No wonder they always blitz from the weak side.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:42 AM    (permalink
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I guess I will say this about everyone saying that the Niners are too high since it seems to be a pretty common opinion. The only team that should really be ahead of the niners are the Bears. Because as little as he has proven, it's still more than most below him from both a blocking and catching standpoint. His rookie year he definitely struggled but posted a very good YPC for a tight end at 13.3.

He is a more gifted athlete than any tight end in the league and has played for the most anemic offense in the NFL over the past two years. And he really has been the focus of a lot of attention on defense due to our WR's inability to get open. Teams can really clog up the middle of the field against us because in the past our WR's never really garnered double coverage, though things should change with the addition of Johnson, Bruce and Martz.

He has been injured a bit, but the injury this year came from a vicious hit from Polamalu right on his knee. The qb set him up to get destroyed and he still made the catch (though it was somehow called an incomplete pass even though he took two steps and then got hit).
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:48 AM    (permalink
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I guess I will say this about everyone saying that the Niners are too high since it seems to be a pretty common opinion. The only team that should really be ahead of the niners are the Bears. Because as little as he has proven, it's still more than most below him from both a blocking and catching standpoint. His rookie year he definitely struggled but posted a very good YPC for a tight end at 13.3.

He is a more gifted athlete than any tight end in the league and has played for the most anemic offense in the NFL over the past two years. And he really has been the focus of a lot of attention on defense due to our WR's inability to get open. Teams can really clog up the middle of the field against us because in the past our WR's never really garnered double coverage, though things should change with the addition of Johnson, Bruce and Martz.

He has been injured a bit, but the injury this year came from a vicious hit from Polamalu right on his knee. The qb set him up to get destroyed and he still made the catch (though it was somehow called an incomplete pass even though he took two steps and then got hit).
I disagree, then I could say running backs like Grant and Barber are the best in the league, even if they didn't play a full season, they proved that they are legit talents with the amount of yards and plays they put up in limited play. Davis still struggles, and thats facts you are hiding. He doesn't have good hands or good route running. He can be as gifted as anyone, he STILL has yet to prove anything.

And, I really disagree with you saying his catching and blocking is better then the others. I would take the Giants, Cowboys, Redskins, Bears, Packers over Davis. I would rather want football players then projects.

Why should they 49ers be so high, if Davis hasn't proven a thing?
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:59 AM    (permalink
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I disagree, then I could say running backs like Grant and Barber are the best in the league, even if they didn't play a full season, they proved that they are legit talents with the amount of yards and plays they put up in limited play. Davis still struggles, and thats facts you are hiding. He doesn't have good hands or good route running. He can be as gifted as anyone, he STILL has yet to prove anything.

And, I really disagree with you saying his catching and blocking is better then the others. I would take the Giants, Cowboys, Redskins, Bears, Packers over Davis. I would rather want football players then projects.

Why should they 49ers be so high, if Davis hasn't proven a thing?
greg olsen-39 catches
vernon davis-52 catches
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Old 06-24-2008, 06:35 AM    (permalink
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I'll agree the panthers don't have that good of tight ends, they do the job asked of them which is more than enough.
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Old 06-24-2008, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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greg olsen-39 catches
vernon davis-52 catches
yea cause Greg olsen was the main target and started every game


Desmond Clark: 44 Catches, 545 yards, 4 TDs, 9 20+ Plays
Vernon Davis: 52 catches, 509 yards, 4 TDs, 5 20+ Plays

About Equal

Greg Olsen: 39 Catches, 391 yards, 2 TDs, 6 20+ Plays
Delanie Walker: 21 Catches 174 yards, 1 TD 2 20+ Plays
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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I agree there, and was actually about to bring it up, but didn't have stats or anything, so I guess its best you beat me to the punch. The stat that sticks out to me is the number of 20+ yard plays, which is heavily in favor of Chicago. 15-7, over double.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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They are mostly their for matchup reasons. Yes, they are better blockers than wide receivers usually but that's such a small part of their job now.
You're just wrong. It's as simple as that.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:42 PM    (permalink
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yea cause Greg olsen was the main target and started every game


Desmond Clark: 44 Catches, 545 yards, 4 TDs, 9 20+ Plays
Vernon Davis: 52 catches, 509 yards, 4 TDs, 5 20+ Plays

About Equal

Greg Olsen: 39 Catches, 391 yards, 2 TDs, 6 20+ Plays
Delanie Walker: 21 Catches 174 yards, 1 TD 2 20+ Plays
I'd also like to add that Ron Turner was absolutely terrible at utilizing our tight ends last year. Well actually Ron Turner is just a terrible offensive coordinator period.
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Old 06-24-2008, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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I'd also like to add that Ron Turner was absolutely terrible at utilizing our tight ends last year. Well actually Ron Turner is just a terrible offensive coordinator period.
That's why comparing TEs is stupid. Each TE is doing different stuff within their respective systems. Some systems ask them to pass catch more, while others have them run block more. And some require the TE to do both.

The hardest way to figure out all this is have access to the playbook, and be able to talk to the OC, and figure out the concepts he runs in his passing game, and what the TEs purpose is within that concept. Is he window dressing used to open up another route run by someone else. OR he is the one of the main guys in that concept, while other players are running the "window Dressing" routes.

Once you factor in all that for each of the 32 systems, then watch film and figure out who is following that system to the best of their ability. Then the last step is look at the stats, and talk to the OC to see if those stats are par for his expectations in that system.

It's actually a pain in the butt process, but that's the way to analyse these positions.
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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And, I really disagree with you saying his catching and blocking is better then the others. I would take the Giants, Cowboys, Redskins, Bears, Packers over Davis. I would rather want football players then projects.

Why should they 49ers be so high, if Davis hasn't proven a thing?
I didn't mean that the 49ers should be higher than the Giants, Cowboys, Redskins or Bears. I meant that the bears should be higher than the 49ers on that list and the niners should drop one spot.

That said, I am not "hiding" his weaknesses when they have been talked about already and are really exaggerated to begin with. His route running is not that poor, he has occasional drops, but they are really not as big of a deal as Ness makes them seem. He is not even on the top 20 of the list of guys with drops in the NFC (lower than 2 other WR's on the 49ers). And, I do believe he is one of the best run blocking TE's in the game.

You would take the Packers tight ends over davis? Ok, it doesn't get much homerish than that does it? You would take an undersized 27 year old Donald Lee who in five years in the league had one season comparable to Davis' second season in the league. And you would also take Desmond Clark or Greg Olson over Davis who haven't shown remotely close to the potential of Davis?
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Old 06-24-2008, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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you complain that the o-line is a terrible blocking unit, but you call Hostler an bonehead for leaving Davis in to block? I guess you want your QB killed.
Yes because he better used as a target down the field. We didn't draft the guy so he could block all the time. That's what Billy Bajema is for. Duh. And a tight end isn't going to solve offensive line problems that consist of an entire unit of 5 players. That's ridiculous.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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I didn't mean that the 49ers should be higher than the Giants, Cowboys, Redskins or Bears. I meant that the bears should be higher than the 49ers on that list and the niners should drop one spot.

That said, I am not "hiding" his weaknesses when they have been talked about already and are really exaggerated to begin with. His route running is not that poor, he has occasional drops, but they are really not as big of a deal as Ness makes them seem. He is not even on the top 20 of the list of guys with drops in the NFC (lower than 2 other WR's on the 49ers). And, I do believe he is one of the best run blocking TE's in the game.

You would take the Packers tight ends over davis? Ok, it doesn't get much homerish than that does it? You would take an undersized 27 year old Donald Lee who in five years in the league had one season comparable to Davis' second season in the league. And you would also take Desmond Clark or Greg Olson over Davis who haven't shown remotely close to the potential of Davis?
LOL, your calling Donald Lee undersized? so what is Davis a midget? Davis is listed at 6'3 253 while Lee is listed at 6'4 248. And I'm sorry, but Lee didn't even play the same amount of games as Davis did, and he put up the better stats with the least amount of catches.

And once again, I would take production over potential. This is the NFC Tight EndS, not Tight End. I would take Clark and Oslen over Davis and Walker.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PACKmanN View Post
LOL, your calling Donald Lee undersized? so what is Davis a midget? Davis is listed at 6'3 253 while Lee is listed at 6'4 248. And I'm sorry, but Lee didn't even play the same amount of games as Davis did, and he put up the better stats with the least amount of catches.

And once again, I would take production over potential. This is the NFC Tight EndS, not Tight End. I would take Clark and Oslen over Davis and Walker.
so in your opinion, donald lee would have produced even with TRENT DILFER throwing him the ball? give me a break man
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nikkayeah View Post
so in your opinion, donald lee would have produced even with TRENT DILFER throwing him the ball? give me a break man
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that Davis got more catches then Lee, but doesn't have one stat higher then Lee.

I do agree with your QB problems, but Davis still hasn't proven he better then the tightends listed below where the 49ers are ranked, except for the ones that are just terrible.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by PACKmanN View Post
I'm not saying that, I'm saying that Davis got more catches then Lee, but doesn't have one stat higher then Lee.

I do agree with your QB problems, but Davis still hasn't proven he better then the tightends listed below where the 49ers are ranked, except for the ones that are just terrible.
look at the players lee is surrounded by and compare it to the niner's offense.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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look at the players lee is surrounded by and compare it to the niner's offense.
That argument goes both ways. Lee has a lot less opportunities because he's probably the 4th or 5th best option at best on his team. On the 49ers, Davis is like the 2nd or 3rd at worst.
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Old 06-24-2008, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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From a production standpoint, Lee and Davis are pretty similar. Lee has proven to be the more explosive playmaker thus far as evidenced by his stats. In terms of who is better, I think Lee has the edge as of now but we all know that Davis has as much potential as anybody.

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Old 06-24-2008, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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That argument goes both ways. Lee has a lot less opportunities because he's probably the 4th or 5th best option at best on his team. On the 49ers, Davis is like the 2nd or 3rd at worst.
the defense doesn't focus on the te in an offense that has greg jennings, james jones, and donald driver. he has a lot more opportunities to get open, whereas the defenses zone in on davis every time he goes out as a receiver.
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