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Old 07-02-2008, 05:11 PM    (permalink
JF4
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The one problem I have will all the Packer haters in this thread is them saying Favre made our offense last year.

Anyone who actually watched Packers games last year would know that Favre's success was just as much a product of the system and the players around him as it was physical ability. The rest of the offense flourished around him and he was left to make simple, short throws, with time in the pocket, and he gave the receivers chances for YAC.

Rodgers' transition to the starting job will be much simpler than most backup QB's, and his stats will definately own Tavaris Jackson's. Favre was not the reason our offense had success last year, with such a good core of players lining up beside him, a good run game, and short WR routes many QB's could've had success in Green Bay's offense last year.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JF4 View Post
The one problem I have will all the Packer haters in this thread is them saying Favre made our offense last year.

Anyone who actually watched Packers games last year would know that Favre's success was just as much a product of the system and the players around him as it was physical ability. The rest of the offense flourished around him and he was left to make simple, short throws, with time in the pocket, and he gave the receivers chances for YAC.

Rodgers' transition to the starting job will be much simpler than most backup QB's, and his stats will definately own Tavaris Jackson's. Favre was not the reason our offense had success last year, with such a good core of players lining up beside him, a good run game, and short WR routes many QB's could've had success in Green Bay's offense last year.
Good post, but then it also seems like you are giving too little credit to Favre. A lot of QBs could have had success, but not a lot of QBs could have had as much success that Favre did. Aaron Rodgers should absolutely have success in this system, but he won't be Brett Favre.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JF4 View Post
The one problem I have will all the Packer haters in this thread is them saying Favre made our offense last year.

Anyone who actually watched Packers games last year would know that Favre's success was just as much a product of the system and the players around him as it was physical ability. The rest of the offense flourished around him and he was left to make simple, short throws, with time in the pocket, and he gave the receivers chances for YAC.

Rodgers' transition to the starting job will be much simpler than most backup QB's, and his stats will definately own Tavaris Jackson's. Favre was not the reason our offense had success last year, with such a good core of players lining up beside him, a good run game, and short WR routes many QB's could've had success in Green Bay's offense last year.
This is a good strategy I guess... Favre retires and no one wants to admit that the team is going to take a hit, so instead the fans rally around the notion that Favre was a "product of the system" and the savior Hippie Rodgers should easily plug right into that system. PS -- Don't worry about the fact that he was injured more on the Bench than Favre was during his whole career (He played in real games too!)
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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This is a good strategy I guess... Favre retires and no one wants to admit that the team is going to take a hit, so instead the fans rally around the notion that Favre was a "product of the system" and the savior Hippie Rodgers should easily plug right into that system. PS -- Don't worry about the fact that he was injured more on the Bench than Favre was during his whole career (He played in real games too!)
You're funny. I'm sure you saw all the Packer's games the last 3 years, so you must know exactly what you're talking about.


And to GB12, you're probably right. I just wanted to make the point that if Favre doesn't have the right system and players around him he can't produce like he used to. We all saw him 2 and 3 years ago when he racked up a ridiculous amount of pics and how much he struggled.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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You're funny. I'm sure you saw all the Packer's games the last 3 years, so you must know exactly what you're talking about.


And to GB12, you're probably right. I just wanted to make the point that if Favre doesn't have the right system and players around him he can't produce like he used to. We all saw him 2 and 3 years ago when he racked up a ridiculous amount of pics and how much he struggled.
You're right. I haven't. Thank God. But when someone is considered one of the GOAT and you try to say he was just a system player, something doesn't add up. I tend to think its more your logic and less of Favre being in a system that allowed him to excel.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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You're right. I haven't. Thank God. But when someone is considered one of the GOAT and you try to say he was just a system player, something doesn't add up. I tend to think its more your logic and less of Favre being in a system that allowed him to excel.
Favre definitely benefited from the system last season. Why do you think he had such a big resurgence?

Nobody is saying that Favre isn't a great QB. He is. But Rodgers has a better arm than Favre did last year, is more mobile, has been learning the system for 3 years, and was a highly-touted prospect. Every report on him has been positive. He's looked great in practice week in and week out and the few times he's got on the field he's looked good. There's really no reason to be anything but optimistic about Aaron. Will he be Favre? No, of course not, but he'll almost certainly be better than Tavaris Jackson and the Packers will almost certainly win the NFC North again.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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You're right. I haven't. Thank God. But when someone is considered one of the GOAT and you try to say he was just a system player, something doesn't add up. I tend to think its more your logic and less of Favre being in a system that allowed him to excel.
I'm so hurt by your comment. Here's actual backup to what I say, unlike your outrageous claims of someone being a *** hippie.



Notice the terrible stats the first two years, than the stats of last year.

And just in case you wanted to know why he is considered one of the GOAT it's because he did this in the prime of his career.



Sorry for the big pictures, I don't want to resize them
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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If I could move this thread to the NFC North forum, please believe I would. Cripes.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm so hurt by your comment. Here's actual backup to what I say, unlike your outrageous claims of someone being a *** hippie.

Notice the terrible stats the first two years, than the stats of last year.

And just in case you wanted to know why he is considered one of the GOAT it's because he did this in the prime of his career.

Sorry for the big pictures, I don't want to resize them
I have a completely different view on this subject. It isn't so much of Favre being bad for a couple years and McCarthy bringing him back. Maybe that's true to a small degree, but I don't buy into it that much. The big difference is the talent he was surrounded by. He was surrounded by crap in 2005. Injuries killed that team. We had lost so many WRs, RBs, and other offensive players that he was playing with rejected free agents that no one else wanted. Rod Gardner was a starting WR for us after being picked up mid season. 2006 we added more talent and Favre and the team both got better. Last year we surrounded him with a good supporting cast and he was back to how he was prior to '05. I can go further in depth and have on this subject many times before, but I'm working on a post that replys to the actual subject of the thread and would like to get back to that.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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If I could move this thread to the NFC North forum, please believe I would. Cripes.
Why? It is certainly deserving of a thread seeing as ESPN feels a need to spend the whole day (and probably week) on this topic. I don't see what moving it there would do. If people don't want to read it don't open the thread.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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the same player who only got half a sack on Favre....
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Dallas gameplan wasn't working that great? you must be joking. That game was on its way to the biggest beat down of the season before Favre got injured. It wasn't even as bad as it could have been. D Ware sacked Favre and forced a fumble but was INCORRECTLY called offsides.
not joking... I'm not denying it wasnt gonna be a huge blowout, just arguing the fact that it wasnt gonna be a huge blowout cuz of some awesome gameplan, it was because Favre was playing with his head up his butt and chucking up bombs instead of working the offense which Rodgers proved worked later on. Again, not arguing like results of the game would be different or anything, just saying gameplan wasnt the reason we got smoked.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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They are better defensively. If Tavaris Jackson kept them off the field for more than 2 minutes at a time last year you would have seen that.
Yes, the 15 less seconds that T-Jax ate up really made the difference between the Colts defensive stats and the Vikings.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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This reminds me of Cards fans who thought they were a playoff team every season because of a handful of players they acquired. A team that could only be described as bad last year is suddenly the team to beat in the division? Over last year's youngest team that went to the NFC Conference championship? Yes, Favre is a loss but that offence is still leagues better than what the Vikings are going to put on the field.
Dude, Packer fans used to be notorious on this board for being the biggest offseason homers. Everyone, and I literally mean everyone, hated them because they were so adamant about how they'd win their division, were a much better team than everyone else in the division, etc, even though they ******* sucked. So don't get too crazy on these optimistic Viking fans...they're doing the same thing Packer fans have been doing the past three years.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Favre should just walk away. If he has to be in football so bad, bring him in as a QB assistant coach or something.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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you should know better than that. by the same logic, if i post thread after endless thread on the packers board about how crappy your team is, you equally shouldn't have a problem. or if we opened the site to spammers and even encouraged them to post across boards, instead of just on off-topic. etc. "if you don't like it, don't read it" is *not* justification for anything.
Not really what I was trying to say. This is one thread and it is big news especially for the time we are at in the offseason. It is something that is getting a crazy amount of attention from ESPN and this board seems to be intersted in judging by the length of the thread already. I just don't see what moving it to the NFC North forum would do.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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i'm just suggesting that, if it continues to be packers vs. vikings about favre's impact on the viking's "super bowl" chances (or whatever they're deluding themselves with), then it will cease to have any real connection with the topic and thus *will* be appropriate fodder for the nfc north board. obviously, i'd tend to agree for now, but we did create the team/division boards just for pissing matches like this looks like it may become.
Yeah, I see what you're saying with that. I was trying to get away from that direction and have been working on a post with my thoughts on the topic.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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I have made 4 posts in this thread, but I realize that I haven't really commented on the topic, so here it is.

At this point I'm kind of hoping that it is just the same crap ESPN feeds to fill up air space (STRONG possibility). This creates a mess with the Packers.

We have Aaron Rodgers who has waited years to get his chance. He would have been ready last year, hell even two years ago and if it wasn't for a future hall of famer in front of him he would be. Had it been say Jon Kitna or Jeff Garcia as the veteran "grooming him" and holding to spot until he's ready he'd have been a starter for a while already. It's very unfair to Aaron even for him to wait this long was unfair. He has handled it perfectly and has been a team player about it to this point, but if Favre does come back I'd have to believe he'd lose it. No one could blame him either, there'd be something wrong with him if he didn't. He has paid his dues and was told he is finally going to be the starter with the news of Favre retiring. So this whole offseason he has been preparing to be the guy and believing he would be. To just take that away like that would crush him.

Then we drafted Brian Brohm in the second round. We'd be pushing him back to third string and cut Matt Flynn. I don't think there'd ever be a more stacked QB position when you have 1. Hall of famer 2. first rounder 3. second rounder. In fact that's too good of depth, you'd have to move one of them. Which puts us in an awful position. With Aaron Rodgers already pissed off from Favre returning it'd have to be him. Well now we're basically screwed. Potential trading partners would know that we have to move him and we'd have no leverage. The best we could get would be a 4th, maybe late 3rd off him. That'd mean that we spent a first round pick on a QB, never let him start a game, and then shipped him off for a 4th rounder. How bad would that be?

It would create problems in the locker room. That is if it hasn't already. How would you feel if you were say Greg Jennings. I'm sure he'd love for Brett Favre to come back, but at the same time he has to support Aaron Rodgers. Then if the talk of this gets more serious you have the split of players backing Favre vs players backing Rodgers. That could disastorous. Say this gets to the point where the front office has to decide if they are going to take him back or release him. Some players will voice their opinions if it gets that close. Say Donald Driver, Chad Clifton, and Donald Lee speak out saying they want Favre. The front office chooses to go with Rodgers. Now there is serious problems in the huddle and the organization as a whole.

Of course a lot of this is hypothetical, but nothing is a stretch of what could actually happen.

If that's not problem enough if this is true and he is serious about coming back there is the decission that has to be made of what to do.

Option 1: Take him back. Face the challenges of some of the things I've stated earlier.

Option 2: Refuse to take him back. Piss off the majority of your fan base and Favre himself. Maybe he takes it personally and doesn't even attend the retiring of his jersey. That'd be a tough thing to live with for Ted Thompson. He'd be one of the most hated men in the state (although I wouldn't agree with that). The reason I don't give the option of him going to another team is because I don't think there's a chance of that happening. Both the organization and Favre would have to agree to his release and the chances of that are slim. Then you have to think of where he'd go. If we were going to grant his release there's no way in hell we'd do it without him agreeing to not go to Minnesota or Chicago. Minnesota is who would be the most likely suitor for him but no way it'd happen. Outside of the Vikings there isn't really a team that's a match. Teams that are serious playoff contenders already have QBs and Favre doesn't want to come back to play for a loser.

No matter what choice Ted Thompson would make he'd lose. There's no easy solution if he is indeed serious about coming back.

Ok, now say we settle on option 1. We trade Aaron for a 4th round pick to San Fransisco ('05 draft redo!). Favre gives us one more year; we win the division but don't win the Superbowl. He retires for real after next year; but not without going through this **** again thanks to ESPN. Aaron Rodgers goes on to be a probowler as a 49er. Now what? We'd have Brohm so we hopefully wouldn't be completely screwed, but that's certainly a bad situation to be in.

Say we go with option 2 we spend the whole year wondering if we could have won the Superbowl if we let Favre back. Regardless of how well Rodgers does in most fan's eyes it won't be good enough.

Now say the least likely thing does for some reason happen and he goes on and signs with the Jets. New York goes on to win the Superbowl thanks to a Favre led offense. Ted Thompson would have to leave the country if that happened.

I guess the point in this is that whether this was truely something said by Favre and he intends to play or just some more BS from ESPN it has created a monster for Packers management. Whatever decession they go with don't be too hard on them because they're in a hard place here.

Really I can't decide for the life of me what I would do or what I think they would do. It'd be pretty damn hard to pass up another opportunity at a Superbowl, but taking such a gamble on throwing away a player that you've put so much into in Aaron Rodgers is quite a risk to take.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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Do we really need this thread? ESPN does whatever the **** they can to get a story that people may be interested in, including this. And to the people that are telling Favre to make a decison already, **** off, he did, and since he was one of the GOAT, still could/can play, and loves the game, ESPN will milk him for stories every ******* chance they get. It's pathetic.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Favre has said it isn't a story. His agent says he's retired. The Packers "have no reaction". He isn't coming back. Stop trying to make this a story.

Of course he's going to miss football and he'll 'get the itch' to play, but he made his decision and he is going to stick with it. This kind of crap makes me mad.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burns336 View Post
This is a good strategy I guess... Favre retires and no one wants to admit that the team is going to take a hit, so instead the fans rally around the notion that Favre was a "product of the system" and the savior Hippie Rodgers should easily plug right into that system. PS -- Don't worry about the fact that he was injured more on the Bench than Favre was during his whole career (He played in real games too!)
You comment on Rodgers' injuries when you know nothing. Our coach said that if Rodgers was the starter he wouldn't have been put on the IR, due to the fact that we had Favre as our qb, and he had a history of not missing any games, the team decide to put Rodgers on the IR.

Also on the product of the system thing, our HC said that we will run a system, and Favre would have to play within it, even FOX addressed it, stop living under a rock.
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Retired quarterback Brett Favre responded quickly to an ESPN report about a possible return to play for the Green Bay Packers by saying, "It's all rumor."

When queried about a possible media firestorm, Favre text messaged, "No reason for it."
Put to rest now?
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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This just in: Brett Favre was spotted playing catch with a young boy. Is he conducting his own minicamp so that he can come back from retirement?!?
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:24 PM    (permalink
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Here's my take

On Aaron Rogers

The Facts:
- There has been a long history of players following Vet QBs becoming very good players after a few years (ie Steve Young, Tom Brady, Tony Romo, Jeff Garcia)

- None of these players were chosen in the first day let alone the first round of the NFL Draft.

- Since 1990 (I'm sure I could go further but I think going back 18 years is good enough) There has been 1 first round QB to not play 16 games in his first 3 seasons (cumulatively) other than Aaron Rogers and yet still start one full season that player is Chad Pennington.

- There is no extreme bias against first year QBs making the playoffs (first round players).

The Conjecture:

- I've said it before and I'll say it again the drafting of Brian Brohm shows a clear lack of confidence ini Aaron Rogers or at least in his ability to stay healthy. I can't even definitively say Aaron Rogers is the best QB on his team.


On Vikings vs Packers who is better

The Facts:
- There is no telling who is better it is a futile argument each team has weaknesses that can be exploited by the other.

- Jarad Allan is one player.

- Jarad Allen is one player who lead the league in sacks last year without Pat Williams sitting next to him.

The Conjecture:
- They are even without Favre. Unproven doesn't mean the same as bad but I wouldn't put my money on either QB being better than the Median.
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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I don't think it does to be honest. I think if I was building a team Id want my starter, a vet backup and a young developmental guy.

Schaub was great trade bait and has he stuck in atlanta would now be a good starter.

Favre was the same deal, as was hasselbeck as was aaron rogers (though he's a bag of ass).

Delhomme is another guy who was a backup.

Say rogers goes out, lights it up for a year or two and gets injured brohm comes in closes out the season and does well. In the offseason GB could find great draft picks in an exchange for him. If he gets a career ending injury then they've got insurance.

A 2nd round pick on a team with no major weaknesses is a good way to invest in the future which is what I see the pick as.
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