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Old 07-22-2008, 03:57 AM    (permalink
iworshipbender
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
Here, get this.

Promoting and condoning gang signs and gangs in general, is in essence promoting and condoning all the horrible things that come with it. What's so freakin hard to understand? Having children out of wedlock is no where near the same ballpark as any of the things affiliated with gangs. Geez..
No one in the league is condoning and promoting gang signs by not punishing people who flash them. Anyone who was smart enough to get through three years of a communications/liberal arts degree, and into the NFL should be smart enough to know that if you exercise your right to act like an idiot and flash a gang sign on national TV you should (right or wrong) expect retaliation by a rival gang. But again it's not the league's responsibility to tell players how they can or can't make hand signals.

Like I said earlier, teach the players not to do anything that might be hazardous to them by teaching them the fallout from making bad decisions like that. Not by regulating how they make shapes with their hands.
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Old 07-22-2008, 04:04 AM    (permalink
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No one in the league is condoning and promoting gang signs by not punishing people who flash them. Anyone who was smart enough to get through three years of a communications/liberal arts degree, and into the NFL should be smart enough to know that if you exercise your right to act like an idiot and flash a gang sign on national TV you should (right or wrong) expect retaliation by a rival gang. But again it's not the league's responsibility to tell players how they can or can't make hand signals.

Like I said earlier, teach the players not to do anything that might be hazardous to them by teaching them the fallout from making bad decisions like that. Not by regulating how they make shapes with their hands.
So let me get this, you'd prefer the NFL turn a blind eye to what's going on?
The classes that the majority of the players take, don't mean squat, so don't give me that "anyone who goes to school, MUST be smart!" thing. So if someone gets shot and killed for flashing a gang sign on tv, the NFL should say, "hey, too bad, we warned ya"?

How about doing a little something like protecting your product? I'm doing everything in my power to protect my assets and my business, and that is what the NFL is doing. In the process, they might clean up the thug mentality some of these players have, that think they're still playing backyard football.
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Old 07-22-2008, 04:20 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
So let me get this, you'd prefer the NFL turn a blind eye to what's going on?
The classes that the majority of the players take, don't mean squat, so don't give me that "anyone who goes to school, MUST be smart!" thing. So if someone gets shot and killed for flashing a gang sign on tv, the NFL should say, "hey, too bad, we warned ya"?

How about doing a little something like protecting your product? I'm doing everything in my power to protect my assets and my business, and that is what the NFL is doing. In the process, they might clean up the thug mentality some of these players have, that think they're still playing backyard football.
I said EDUCATE not REGULATE(there's a campaign slogan for you.) You think that NFL players are too stupid to make any sort of good judgment when properly educated? So they require bans on specific hand gestures?

You don't clean anything up by banning it, never has this ever worked ever. Who cares if they throw the sign on national TV, or on the street with a friend? If the wrong person sees it, they will act how they act. Again and again, the best way to take care of the problem is to educate people of the downsides of performing said action. It's not the NFL's fault, they provided the education necessary to avoid these situations on TV as well as in real life, not just on TV where they ban it.

Now if the FCC(another agency I hate) came up with a regulation that banned gang signs, then I'd see a reason to completely ban it in the NFL, but until that happens, I will never be convinced that this is a good idea at a league-wide basis. This should at maximum be decided by the organization that employs the player and outlined in that player's contract(just like headbands and the Chicago Bulls organization.)
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Old 07-22-2008, 04:24 AM    (permalink
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This argument is just going in circles, so i'll end it here.
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Old 07-22-2008, 07:21 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by iworshipbender View Post
I said EDUCATE not REGULATE(there's a campaign slogan for you.) You think that NFL players are too stupid to make any sort of good judgment when properly educated? So they require bans on specific hand gestures?

You don't clean anything up by banning it, never has this ever worked ever. Who cares if they throw the sign on national TV, or on the street with a friend? If the wrong person sees it, they will act how they act. Again and again, the best way to take care of the problem is to educate people of the downsides of performing said action. It's not the NFL's fault, they provided the education necessary to avoid these situations on TV as well as in real life, not just on TV where they ban it.

Now if the FCC(another agency I hate) came up with a regulation that banned gang signs, then I'd see a reason to completely ban it in the NFL, but until that happens, I will never be convinced that this is a good idea at a league-wide basis. This should at maximum be decided by the organization that employs the player and outlined in that player's contract(just like headbands and the Chicago Bulls organization.)
By removing it you clean it.

Its not hard, really. Don't affiliate as representatives of the brand with criminal organizations.

If you can't do that, then hand in the uniform and the paycheck.

While I agree, hiring someone to detect it is extreme, banning it is not.
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:09 AM    (permalink
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By removing it you clean it.

Its not hard, really. Don't affiliate as representatives of the brand with criminal organizations.

If you can't do that, then hand in the uniform and the paycheck.

While I agree, hiring someone to detect it is extreme, banning it is not.
Congratulations, you removed gang signs from NFL broadcasts. You must feel like superman Mr. Goodell. We should replace everyone who was a gang member at any point in their life because they might scare people with their foreign hand movements, with players from the army and navy, it'd be the best ratings evar.

Does anyone actually think the NFL is associating themselves with thugs, drug dealers, murderers and gangs because some player throws a hand gesture when they celebrate a touchdown? I have to know.

If you get caught up in the moment and make a hand gesture you're familiar with, and OH SHI- IT'S A GANG SIGN!!!!!!!!! You deserve to get kicked out? I'll never agree with that logic.
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Old 07-22-2008, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Congratulations, you removed gang signs from NFL broadcasts. You must feel like superman Mr. Goodell. We should replace everyone who was a gang member at any point in their life because they might scare people with their foreign hand movements, with players from the army and navy, it'd be the best ratings evar.

Does anyone actually think the NFL is associating themselves with thugs, drug dealers, murderers and gangs because some player throws a hand gesture when they celebrate a touchdown? I have to know.

If you get caught up in the moment and make a hand gesture you're familiar with, and OH SHI- IT'S A GANG SIGN!!!!!!!!! You deserve to get kicked out? I'll never agree with that logic.
I don't care whether or not you agree, because they're employed by the NFL, if the NFL says don't do it, don't do it... If you want to, go and make your money somewhere else.
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:55 PM    (permalink
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By removing it you clean it.

Its not hard, really. Don't affiliate as representatives of the brand with criminal organizations.

If you can't do that, then hand in the uniform and the paycheck.

While I agree, hiring someone to detect it is extreme, banning it is not.
Then the NFL needs to get their reasons straight. If this is a preventative measure to protect the players, as any mention of the Darrent Williams situation (which really shouldn't be brought up at all) would suggest, then the only way to proceed is to get the players to understand why it's a bad idea, not just forcing them to because the front office holds power over their paycheck.

If they announced it for what it really is, a poor attempt to present an NFL to the public to the NFL which is vastly different than the one that actually exists, then I still have a problem, because it doesn't do what almost every single other Goodell reform has done. Instead of punishing players for actual bad behavior and trying to get players to understand why they shouldn't do it, he's making an a purely surface prohibition so that nobody watching gets offended on gameday. It's like taking a wall that's leaking and has a huge hole in it and slapping a paint job on it.

The NFL as a whole is a product, but the players aren't. They're human beings. Every restriction the NFL puts on them should have a legitimate reason, or it is by definition a corrupt system. Testing for illegal drugs and performance enhancers? Fine. Adding fiscal punishment in the forms of suspensions when a player is convicted off the field? Fine. Saying what a player can and cannot do with his hands after a play has finished? Totally ridiculous.
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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More than one NFL player has gotten into problems as a result of criminals targetting them for one reason or another. Darrent Williams was killed, Sean Taylor was killed during a break in (a common method of cover up), Javon Walker was recently bashed, Pacman Jones was shot at, Michael Vick is in Jail. Not to mention the ray lewis issue.

Right now the NFL has a bad enough image.

Even if the above events were out of the ordinary and the injuries and deaths had nothing to do with gangs, flashing gang signs can only lead to problems.

Men from the ages of 22 to whatever who have received a college education should be able to understand that it isn't good business to flash gangs signs that everyone knows can bring about violence and other issues.

They don't as college educated adults need to be educated on why you don't promote criminal organizations (though disorganized they may be) or seek to provoke them.

This isn't necessarily a lack of education, its a matter of common sense and following the rules of the NFL.
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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One at a time

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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
More than one NFL player has gotten into problems as a result of criminals targetting them for one reason or another. Darrent Williams was killed, Sean Taylor was killed during a break in (a common method of cover up), Javon Walker was recently bashed, Pacman Jones was shot at, Michael Vick is in Jail. Not to mention the ray lewis issue.
None of this is either here or there, since none of these situations had anything with anyone flashing a gang sign during a game.

Quote:
Right now the NFL has a bad enough image.

Even if the above events were out of the ordinary and the injuries and deaths had nothing to do with gangs, flashing gang signs can only lead to problems.
Yes, apparently one of those problems being the NFL taking major oversteps in their restriction of what players do in between plays on a football field.

Quote:
Men from the ages of 22 to whatever who have received a college education should be able to understand that it isn't good business to flash gangs signs that everyone knows can bring about violence and other issues.

They don't as college educated adults need to be educated on why you don't promote criminal organizations (though disorganized they may be) or seek to provoke them.
Yes, let's assume that everyone who comes into a sport where you sacrifice your body for about a decade for potential gobs of money is sane and is very intelligent about the long term ramifications of their own actions, then let's assume that trying to inform them is completely hopeless. Great plan.

Quote:
This isn't necessarily a lack of education, its a matter of common sense and following the rules of the NFL.
Yes, but it wasn't a rule of the NFL until just now. Without enforcement, no rule truly exists except in theory. And I'm arguing that it is a silly rule, or actually that it would be a silly rule if it didn't take massive step towards restricting the players ability to express themselves out on the field for the sake of the misguided sentiment of protecting players from themselves and portraying the NFL as something it is most definitely not.


I'm not arguing that the NFL doesn't have the power to do this. I'm arguing that they are extending their power far further than it should ever go by doing this. I don't know how picky their "expert" will be, or how much they'll choose to enforce the rule. I don't even know how much this will keep players from flashing whatever hand sign they damn well please. But I don't understand why questioning the NFL's (often terrible) decisions is some sort of taboo, and I certainly don't understand why anyone would think that this sort of superficial fix which also happens to allow for major precedent to restrict freedom to players on the field would be passed over with such nonchalance. It's completely egregious.
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Old 07-23-2008, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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No fines, penalties, or retribution has been mentioned (unless I missed it) aside from the statement that the player would be told not to do it anymore.

So where's the problem with all this?

There shouldn't be any issue at all. The NFL is a private organization that, like any other company, has every right to mandate certain rules for its employees. Even if they rewrite/redefine the rules and penalties for gang signs the NFL is still less strict than most companies in this country. Many NFL players come into the league with criminal records, which is more than they could ever expect from companies in "the real world."

I'm shocked that anyone is arguing against this like there's some kind of Big Brother concern. It's the NFL - a private organization - and therefore has every right to be as Big Brother as it chooses.
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Old 07-23-2008, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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The fist pump will be considered a gang sign
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm shocked that anyone is arguing against this like there's some kind of Big Brother concern. It's the NFL - a private organization - and therefore has every right to be as Big Brother as it chooses.
Absolutely, just as I have every right to blast them for using their power in ways I view as incorrect. Which they are, and therefore I am.

And calling the NFL a private organization is a misnomer. If they are they have the biggest public interest of any private organization in the world. Hell, we're on a website almost entirely dedicated to discussing the actions of this "private organization".
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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None of this is either here or there, since none of these situations had anything with anyone flashing a gang sign during a game.
What does it hurt to look into something like this and actually stopping something BEFORE it has a chance to become a problem? It's called being proactive. With all the different problems that young NFL stars are getting into these days... I see nothing wrong with it.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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People preaching education are missing the point that its likely that the players will ask a question of the ruling and have it explained to them anyway...
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by farfromforgotten View Post
What does it hurt to look into something like this and actually stopping something BEFORE it has a chance to become a problem? It's called being proactive. With all the different problems that young NFL stars are getting into these days... I see nothing wrong with it.
Neither would I, if they were being proactive in a way that will actually help people. All they're doing is making abstract restrictions on the use of ones hands in between plays during an NFL game. This does nothing to keep players out of trouble off the field, and there is no evidence to suggest it will. All it does is take away players' freedom for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by blindsite
People preaching education are missing the point that its likely that the players will ask a question of the ruling and have it explained to them anyway...
You should really try and understand what we mean by education. We don't mean explain the rule, we mean try and attack the root of the problem behind player involvement with things like gangs rather than intact a rule which does absolutely nothing but simply pretend those involvements don't exist for the sake of fan comfort. It's ridiculous.
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Peyton will have to cut that out.
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Old 07-24-2008, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post

You should really try and understand what we mean by education. We don't mean explain the rule, we mean try and attack the root of the problem behind player involvement with things like gangs rather than intact a rule which does absolutely nothing but simply pretend those involvements don't exist for the sake of fan comfort. It's ridiculous.


My question to you is, do you really think that any player either affiliated with a gang close enough to flash their sign, or enemies for whatever reason with a gang member will care too much about the root issue?

In my opinion, this rule is designed specifically to target those players who are beyond help where this is concerned.

Odell Thurman, Jason Peter, Ricky Williams, Michael Vick, Rae Carruth, the list goes on, are all players who whatever their respective issue, were beyond the help of education.

If the above couldn't be educated through the drug program, or through whatever else in the form of education and counseling they received, isn't it feasible that there's players out there who are beyond the help of education when it comes to their affiliation with gangs?

Due to the fact that this is likely the case it make sense to stamp out the problem by banning it and policing it, at the same time as you in-house (within teams) educate the players about societal issues like gangs and crime.

I agree education is a good treatment, but you've got to be able to address the untreatable.
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Old 07-24-2008, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Damn and i just taught pac a new gang signs :(...
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Blindsite, tell me how this rule targets these players. Please. None of those players ever flashed a gang sign. Michael Vick flipped off some fans once, but lord knows we don't need an expert to pick that up. What players are so beyond help in regards to flashing gang signs on the field that we need immediate legislature banning it? None of them.

There is nothing wrong with making any sort of hand gesture. If the player chooses to participate in questionable activities off the field, or even questionable on the field, the NFL has rules in place for punishment. But making a gesture with your hands isn't any sort of questionable activity, no matter who else happens to flash that hand gesture.

When you use phrases like,

Quote:
...stamp out the problem...
and
Quote:
...you've got to be able to address the untreatable.
You're making the assumption that this rule actually has some real effect, or that it is even designed to counteract some huge problem in the NFL. Neither of these is true. We all watch football. Has anyone ever identified rampant flashing of gang signs? Furthermore, even if there was, would it even be a big deal?

I'm all for the NFL using its power to further punish players once they have been found guilty by law or to try and better educate players on the trials they will face, but how could I possibly be for the NFL taking away freedom from its employee's under the guise of addressing a specific problem that doesn't even exist?
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:30 AM    (permalink
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I don't mean to be rude, but you've got to read what I am posting if you're going to argue with me.



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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
Blindsite, tell me how this rule targets these players. Please. None of those players ever flashed a gang sign. Michael Vick flipped off some fans once, but lord knows we don't need an expert to pick that up. What players are so beyond help in regards to flashing gang signs on the field that we need immediate legislature banning it? None of them.
In my opinion, this rule is designed specifically to target those players who are beyond help where this is concerned.

Odell Thurman, Jason Peter, Ricky Williams, Michael Vick, Rae Carruth, the list goes on, are all players who whatever their respective issue, were beyond the help of education.

If the above couldn't be educated through the drug program, or through whatever else in the form of education and counseling they received, isn't it feasible that there's players out there who are beyond the help of education when it comes to their affiliation with gangs?


We're talking about the idea of educating players not to undertake behavior to the detriment of the league.

I am saying that there is always going to be cases where education does not work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
There is nothing wrong with making any sort of hand gesture. If the player chooses to participate in questionable activities off the field, or even questionable on the field, the NFL has rules in place for punishment. But making a gesture with your hands isn't any sort of questionable activity, no matter who else happens to flash that hand gesture.

When you use phrases like,


and


You're making the assumption that this rule actually has some real effect, or that it is even designed to counteract some huge problem in the NFL. Neither of these is true. We all watch football. Has anyone ever identified rampant flashing of gang signs? Furthermore, even if there was, would it even be a big deal?

I'm all for the NFL using its power to further punish players once they have been found guilty by law or to try and better educate players on the trials they will face, but how could I possibly be for the NFL taking away freedom from its employee's under the guise of addressing a specific problem that doesn't even exist?
Do you think that the NFL wastes money? To become the number one sport in a nation like the United States you need to have efficency. Obviously people who're clearly more privvy to information than you and I are, do think its an issue.

While that doesn't mean you shouldn't question it, it doesn't mean that its not a good idea.

Obviously there's been some connection somewhere along the way, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to have someone in place to conduct this policy.
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:54 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
I don't mean to be rude, but you've got to read what I am posting if you're going to argue with me.
Ditto.

Quote:
We're talking about the idea of educating players not to undertake behavior to the detriment of the league.

I am saying that there is always going to be cases where education does not work.
Okay, two things here.

(1) How does flashing a gang sign pose a serious and actual detriment the league?

(2) If education doesn't work, then the NFL's next step is to take the free will out of it? I'm just trying to understand your stance here. If educating a player is a no go, then the next step is to what? Put them under house arrest? In situations where education does not work, then the player will do something stupid, and then the league will punish him. You can't save people from themselves, you can only provide information. There is no option besides education.

Additionally, this rule doesn't even go that far. What possible impact would a rule like this have done towards the self-destruction of people like Michael Vick or Odell Thurman? Absolutely nothing. It's a total surface farce of a rule which makes absolutely no sense within the context of the game or within the context of human rights. None. Nada. Zilch.

Quote:
Do you think that the NFL wastes money? To become the number one sport in a nation like the United States you need to have efficency. Obviously people who're clearly more privvy to information than you and I are, do think its an issue.
Ah yes, the great and wise NFL. Nevermind that the NFL is in debt 9 billion dollars. How dare I question such a successful business.

Quote:
While that doesn't mean you shouldn't question it, it doesn't mean that its not a good idea.
I'm questioning whether it is a good idea. So based on the fact that I even have a question about it, it being a good idea is immediately not assured. So yeah, it sorta does mean that.

Quote:
Obviously there's been some connection somewhere along the way, otherwise there wouldn't be a reason to have someone in place to conduct this policy.
I've already stated the purpose of the rule. It's obvious. Players flashing gang signs makes the average NFL viewer uncomfortable. It's bad PR. The NFL wants to put the concept out there that the NFL is a clean league before they actually take the necessary steps to make that a reality. They want to put a product out on the field which doesn't reflect what that product actually is. And they're willing to sacrifice the rights of the players they employ to do this. That's ****** up. No two ways about it.
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Old 07-25-2008, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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(2) If education doesn't work, then the NFL's next step is to take the free will out of it?
Yes!


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I've already stated the purpose of the rule. It's obvious. Players flashing gang signs makes the average NFL viewer uncomfortable. It's bad PR. The NFL wants to put the concept out there that the NFL is a clean league before they actually take the necessary steps to make that a reality. They want to put a product out on the field which doesn't reflect what that product actually is. And they're willing to sacrifice the rights of the players they employ to do this. That's ****** up. No two ways about it.
This is pretty simple here. I work in retail on saturday I run the entire business. If I decided to play death metal all day I don't think I'd keep my job.

1. It makes people uncomfortable
2. Its largely viewed as an unpopular genre of music
3. Due to the language used and the deliverance of lyrics it can often be intimidating.

My employer says no to heavy metal because it is all of those things. So even though its against my will to listen to crap like Nolah Jones I do it, I want my pay checks.

They're not necessarily sacrificing their rights, what they're doing is ensuring players follow the strictest codes of conduct because they're role models, in the public eye and representatives of the NFL.

If your employer tells you not to wear a certain type of shirt to work, not to smoke in the shop, not to have offensive music blaring on the shop sound system, not to use the word "****" when speaking to customers, all of which are rules I've had to enforce in the workplace I might be interfering with free will, but I'm ensuring that people continue to come to my staff for help, which in turn sells products and gets people in store.

You stop them from flashing gang signs, you prevent the alienation of a number of fans, even if that is the only reason for it. IMO, that's a good enough reason for any employer to give. Don't drive our customer's away.
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Old 07-25-2008, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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Bad analogy. NFL players aren't retail staff. They aren't even required to interact with fans on a personal level. They are paid professional performers in an unscripted sporting event. Second off, the NFL isn't technically the employer, they are the governing body of the employers. They are not the ones who sign paychecks.

A better analogy would be booking Metallica to play the Brooklyn Country Music Festival and then asking them to please not do anything that would displease country music fans.

Anyone who is offended by players flashing hand signs that 99% of people don't even recognize is a ninny who should be quiet. Any governing body willing to impeach the freedom of their players to try and not worry Aunt Mae is stupid.

The NFL has a lot of rights. They state what is and what is not legal action during a play. They determine who should be fined for illegal actions committed during a play, and who should be suspended for illegal actions off the field. But common sense and any appreciation for the tenuous nature of freedom would obviously show that in regulating what motions a player can make with their hands in between plays, they are greatly overstepping a line that should not be crossed. And while there is almost never a good reason to do this, their current reason is especially shortbus.
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Old 07-26-2008, 02:13 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
Bad analogy. NFL players aren't retail staff. They aren't even required to interact with fans on a personal level. They are paid professional performers in an unscripted sporting event. Second off, the NFL isn't technically the employer, they are the governing body of the employers. They are not the ones who sign paychecks.

A better analogy would be booking Metallica to play the Brooklyn Country Music Festival and then asking them to please not do anything that would displease country music fans.

Anyone who is offended by players flashing hand signs that 99% of people don't even recognize is a ninny who should be quiet. Any governing body willing to impeach the freedom of their players to try and not worry Aunt Mae is stupid.

The NFL has a lot of rights. They state what is and what is not legal action during a play. They determine who should be fined for illegal actions committed during a play, and who should be suspended for illegal actions off the field. But common sense and any appreciation for the tenuous nature of freedom would obviously show that in regulating what motions a player can make with their hands in between plays, they are greatly overstepping a line that should not be crossed. And while there is almost never a good reason to do this, their current reason is especially shortbus.
If my son/daughter/spouse/myself was held up at gun point, had something stolen, my store robbed, someone I know beaten, raped, shot accidentally, whatever by someone known to be in a gang. I wouldn't consider myself a ninny to be pissed off when someone was flashing that gang's sign on my TV.

Like it or not, agree with me or not, these players are role models and they represent the NFL and their franchises. Whether or not you agree that gangs are an issue in society and shouldn't be promoted or provoked is a different issue. They are recognized as criminal in most western societies and therefore shouldn't be promoted in any way shape or form.

If metallica went on stage and delivered a nazi salute it would be a different story I bet.
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