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Old 07-21-2008, 04:23 PM    (permalink
scottyboy
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Ok, I've been torn between trading JShock or not, but have always leaned more to the keeping him argument. Here's how I see it:

Positives:
-We get rid of a cancer, a guy who really didn't want to be here
- We won in the playoffs without him(obviously)
-Eli looked BETTER in the playoffs, where Shockey wasn't playing(coincidence or not?)
- We got a 2nd rounder for him(and 5th) which is nice for a disgruntled player
- He was hurt often
- We are now free of his salary, leaving us extra cash to do what Reese has been doing in building his Super Bowl team, keep the inhouse players
- I honestly believe, the new cash goes to Plaxico's new contract.
- Darcy and Matthews are good, young, big blocking TE's who can fill in nicely on run plays.

Negatives:
- face it, we can't crown Boss yet. One big play in the Super Bowl doesn't make you an elite TE. He's still a 2nd year kid, late pick, from a small school who didn't play/start the whole season. Will he produce?
-People knock Shock's blocking, which is ignorant. EXCELLENT run blocker. He was obviously missed(at least by Giants fans) in the run game. I saw a huge difference
- He was a ******* lightning rod. One catch, the crowd went NUTS! He was tough and fun to watch. Easily one of my favorites to watch
- Gives the Saints ANOTHER weapon. 'nuff said
- Srsly? Michael Matthews and Darcy Johnson? srsly? I know I complimented them earlier, but really?

LETS MOVE WHIMPER TO TE!!! :D
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SaintsMan View Post
Oh, I see.

Yeah, if we miss the playoffs, losing those picks will really hurt. And I agree about Bush. Right now he is a good player, but he needs to turn the corner this season or he'll be considered a bust.
I see him as a bust. It's like he is much more of a hastle to figure out where to put then he is worth.

I always thought of it this way. For the incredible amount of hype he got coming out, I expected an Adrian Peterson type year, coming out and dominating. Instead, he failed to come close to that.

Meanwhile Peterson, who is a sick talent never got the hype because of his injury concern, and father issue. But in my mind the hype Bush got he should be having Adrian Peterson type impact from the get go.

In my opinion he HAS to show something special this year, or I am afraid from a non Saints fan point of view, the rest of the NFL fan base, will really rip on him, and perhaps consider him a bust.

I am waiting for him to show something. 581 and 565 yards for the 2nd overall pick with his hype is unacceptable in my opinion. And 3.7 yards per carry is pretty bad too.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by leroyisgod View Post
Until he can start to play through injuries or not get injured, everyone will think of what he could've been.
He's a pro-bowler...

Injuries are part of the game, same with Kellen although he ****** that up a bit on his own after his broken leg.

Shockey is a good player, he never would have been the best, but hes tough when hes in there and hes reliable, but not a super star.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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With the potent offense New Orleans brings, and an improving defense, I can see them as SB contenders this year. I am starting to open up to the fact that the NFC isnt going to be the mediocre conference anymore. I like this move for the Saints and it gives them another weapon.


Also, its a great deal for the Giants as they got rid of a cancer, and got a pretty good return for him as well.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
I see him as a bust. It's like he is much more of a hastle to figure out where to put then he is worth.

I always thought of it this way. For the incredible amount of hype he got coming out, I expected an Adrian Peterson type year, coming out and dominating. Instead, he failed to come close to that.

Meanwhile Peterson, who is a sick talent never got the hype because of his injury concern, and father issue. But in my mind the hype Bush got he should be having Adrian Peterson type impact from the get go.

In my opinion he HAS to show something special this year, or I am afraid from a non Saints fan point of view, the rest of the NFL fan base, will really rip on him, and perhaps consider him a bust.

I am waiting for him to show something. 581 and 565 yards for the 2nd overall pick with his hype is unacceptable in my opinion. And 3.7 yards per carry is pretty bad too.
I would love to see Bush run behind the Vikings Offensive Line. The Saints were pretty bad at run blocking the last few years. Yeah, Deuce averaged over 4yds a carry in 2006, but on a a lot of his long runs, he had to break a tackle behind the O-Line first.

Yeah, Reggie has to improve a lot and he does miss some running lanes by dancing. I just want to see what he can do without getting hit in the backfield right when he gets the ball or getting linemen pushed into him. O-Line really needs to step it up. Look at Larry Johnson behind the Chiefs line last season.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
I see him as a bust. It's like he is much more of a hastle to figure out where to put then he is worth.

I always thought of it this way. For the incredible amount of hype he got coming out, I expected an Adrian Peterson type year, coming out and dominating. Instead, he failed to come close to that.

Meanwhile Peterson, who is a sick talent never got the hype because of his injury concern, and father issue. But in my mind the hype Bush got he should be having Adrian Peterson type impact from the get go.

In my opinion he HAS to show something special this year, or I am afraid from a non Saints fan point of view, the rest of the NFL fan base, will really rip on him, and perhaps consider him a bust.

I am waiting for him to show something. 581 and 565 yards for the 2nd overall pick with his hype is unacceptable in my opinion. And 3.7 yards per carry is pretty bad too.
How quick people are to change opinions on the guy. I think one of the only reasons his production is getting so much attention, is because of the tremendous success Mario Williams had this past year.

Reggie Bush is by no means a bust, but everyone knew what he was gonna be coming in. Scouts worried about his level of production as a strictly run-first Rb, and that's proven to be true. Big surprise there?

Everyone knew how explosive he could be in the open field, and he hasn't disappointed there. Without Reggie Bush, the Saints aren't in the NFC Championship his rookie year, and many people are undervaluing the impact that Deuce McAllister had on the team, and Reggie.

The reason people hyped him so much, is because he was different. He wasn't your typical running back. He had that Michael Vick aura about him. Not quite as polished as his true position would lead you to believe, but his playmaking ability was off the charts. I don't think he needs to come in and set the world on fire, but the coaching staff needs to do a better job of masking his deficiencies.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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Hopefully Deuce can return to form along with better O-Line play. I'm confident in Pierre Thomas, though.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:47 PM    (permalink
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How quick people are to change opinions on the guy. I think one of the only reasons his production is getting so much attention, is because of the tremendous success Mario Williams had this past year.

Reggie Bush is by no means a bust, but everyone knew what he was gonna be coming in. Scouts worried about his level of production as a strictly run-first Rb, and that's proven to be true. Big surprise there?

Everyone knew how explosive he could be in the open field, and he hasn't disappointed there. Without Reggie Bush, the Saints aren't in the NFC Championship his rookie year, and many people are undervaluing the impact that Deuce McAllister had on the team, and Reggie.

The reason people hyped him so much, is because he was different. He wasn't your typical running back. He had that Michael Vick aura about him. Not quite as polished as his true position would lead you to believe, but his playmaking ability was off the charts. I don't think he needs to come in and set the world on fire, but the coaching staff needs to do a better job of masking his deficiencies.

Maybe bust is a little strong of a word. But I would certainly say his hype coming out is no where near equal to his production, for whatever reason. Is that safe to say? I think, in my opinion, that's a fair statement.

Also with the hype coming out, comes with expectations. One would think with that hype and heisman winner, he would come out and have a Peterson-esque type year. But he didn't have no where near the impact. Also seemed to struggle with running inside if I remember correctly.

Another knock was that he could never carry the load at this leve like Peterson could. Even in college he had White there as well. Now he has duece, but is he really worth the pick and hype? That's where the questions need to be answered.

I think what people want to see is that player in college, who can live up to the hype that was created for him. So far it's been pretty disappointing.
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Old 07-21-2008, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush can be a great running back if he wasn't so terrified of contact. That is more mental than it is physical. He also has problems with avoiding big hits (see Sheldon Brown). When McAllister got hurt, Bush's deficiencies as a running back were exposed. Which is why I thought that McAllister was more important to that offense than Bush.
This trade helps the Saints by getting Brees another target besides Colston. Brees should have a better year if Shockey stays healthy.
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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Maybe bust is a little strong of a word. But I would certainly say his hype coming out is no where near equal to his production, for whatever reason. Is that safe to say? I think, in my opinion, that's a fair statement.

Also with the hype coming out, comes with expectations. One would think with that hype and heisman winner, he would come out and have a Peterson-esque type year. But he didn't have no where near the impact. Also seemed to struggle with running inside if I remember correctly.

Another knock was that he could never carry the load at this leve like Peterson could. Even in college he had White there as well. Now he has duece, but is he really worth the pick and hype? That's where the questions need to be answered.

I think what people want to see is that player in college, who can live up to the hype that was created for him. So far it's been pretty disappointing.
Yes, i would agree that that is a fair statement to make, but who are you gonna lash out at that for? Reggie Bush? Try the media.. The ones that blow everything out of proportion. Maybe he didn't have as big of an impact as Adrian Peterson had, but it's not as big a difference as you're making it out to be. His rookie year, Bush looked unstoppable in some plays. He's faster than the majority of the defenses, more quick, agile.. he has great hands and runs good routes for a running back.

565 rush yards, 742 rec yards, 88 receptions, 9 total touchdowns.

I wouldn't exactly say that's not impact worthy
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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Yes, i would agree that that is a fair statement to make, but who are you gonna lash out at that for? Reggie Bush? Try the media.. The ones that blow everything out of proportion. Maybe he didn't have as big of an impact as Adrian Peterson had, but it's not as big a difference as you're making it out to be. His rookie year, Bush looked unstoppable in some plays. He's faster than the majority of the defenses, more quick, agile.. he has great hands and runs good routes for a running back.

565 rush yards, 742 rec yards, 88 receptions, 9 total touchdowns.

I wouldn't exactly say that's not impact worthy
Well the media, especially now a days for annointing someone before actually someone earning it. That's always been the case, especially nowa days in sports. That I understand.

But also to their defense it's not like they picked any player to tout. Bush had the skills and special element, I just don't think he was worth all the hype coming out. That's why I respect the Texans GM for seeing through the BS and drafting Williams.

All I am saying is the coorelation between the hype and position he was picked doesn't match the production for this particular player. Now because of that he is going to need to have numbers that justify his position or do something amazing at a clutch time in a superbowl or playoff game or so to warrant that.

Look at Gallery.. Dubbed as a can't miss pick, a safe pick, and he has struggled. Unfortuntely now in football, if you have a certain element of hype to you, you are required to live up to it. In Reggie's case he had a sick amount of hype coming from USC, winning the heismen, and now dating big butt. It's like he is a celebrity, and now needs to get the football part to match everything else.

Yeah I know his special abilities, those have been talked about since day 1, now he has to do that consistently. Do it consistently and put up numbers that equal the hype is all I am saying.
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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Reggie Bush is my favorite #2 overall pick, that immediately became the highest paid running back of all time, and makes his biggest impact(Sheldon Brown) as a slot receiver in his first year.
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Old 07-21-2008, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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I think it's pretty stupid on the Giants part but I guess I understand it. I just think the whole distraction/cancer thing is kinda overrated. A lot of great teams had players that would fit that description. And TO has kinda changed my opinion of the possible affects of a "diva" player as it's really only a distraction for the media not his teammates. It's not like y'all (NY) have a proven commodity in Boss. All Boss really did was make some fortuitous catches in the playoffs and SB which may or may not translate to a whole season worth of production. Not to mention Shockey's a much better blocker. All I know for sure is somewhere Roy Williams is overjoyed at the news lol. Think I speak for all Cowboys fans when I say good riddance to that crazy okie lol.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Until he can start to play through injuries or not get injured, everyone will think of what he could've been.
He doesn't miss a lot of games.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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The Saints are really going all out here. They've had an amazing offseason (on paper). Ill be looking forward to seeing them in action on both O and D.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Im actually speechless i'm so pumped about this. Although, with only 1st
4th and 7th round picks (2nd and 5th to Giants, 3rd to Jets,
6th to Green Bay), I see N.O trading down come next year's draft.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Somehow this turned into a Reggie Bush discussion again .. :/
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Eh, as a Giants fan I am not really for or against this. On one side we rid ourselves of a cancer, he didn't want to play for us, we get to see what last years rookie Boss can do, according to some people (not me) Shockey made Eli play worse (we will se about that), and also we free up a lot of salary cap. The negatives would be, we lose a huge catching threat, a coverage nightmare, and a TE who is good at catching and blocking.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
Yes, i would agree that that is a fair statement to make, but who are you gonna lash out at that for? Reggie Bush? Try the media.. The ones that blow everything out of proportion. Maybe he didn't have as big of an impact as Adrian Peterson had, but it's not as big a difference as you're making it out to be. His rookie year, Bush looked unstoppable in some plays. He's faster than the majority of the defenses, more quick, agile.. he has great hands and runs good routes for a running back.

565 rush yards, 742 rec yards, 88 receptions, 9 total touchdowns.

I wouldn't exactly say that's not impact worthy
People quickly forget his playoff performance against the Bears. Though the saints lost Reggie kept them in the game.

While I wouldn't trade either of our first round backs for him at this point. Its more because he'd never fit in the system and imo thats the biggest thing.

The system he's playing in. You've got to get him the ball and get it to him in space. Use him as a kick returner, slot receiver, screen catcher, RB whatever if he gets hurt on ST, so be it, that's football get your money's worth by getting him in space with the ball...

It's clear what you can't do is give him the ball and expect 4/5 ypc up the gut.
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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basically a bigger poor mans Devin Hester?
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Old 07-21-2008, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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basically a bigger poor mans Devin Hester?
Not at all. Reggie is much better everywhere besides as a returner.
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Old 07-21-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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I just remembered I have the 2000 Giants playbook, when Payton was our OC, tomorrow I will try to scan some of the TE pass routes and concept plays that revolve around Shockey. I guess it will give some of our NO saints fans something to look for this upcoming season.
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Old 07-21-2008, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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basically a bigger poor mans Devin Hester?
I suppose in a way yes. The way the Bears have hester involved is a decent blue print for the emerging breed of players that don't seem to fit into the one mould.

IMO Bush could grow into a more productive Tiki Barber, its just finding how to get him into that mould that is going to be difficult. If he won't fit into that mould you've got to get him ball.

Returns is a good way for him to make an impact and it will only help him in the other aspects of the game.

Westbrook is another runner they should be trying to base his play off.
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Old 07-21-2008, 07:21 PM    (permalink
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basically a bigger poor mans Devin Hester?
No.

Reggie Bush can actually catch the ball. He's actually better than Hester in just about anything you can think of not named "returning".

Besides, if Hester gets clocked out on a return and he's out for 5 weeks, no biggie. He's your 4th WR at best, and a KR earning peanuts, compared to Bush.
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Old 07-21-2008, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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I meant it more as a playmaker that doesnt really fit into a position but needs the ball in his hands. And if he has it in his hands and maybe a lil bit of space he is going to make sth special.
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