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Old 07-28-2008, 09:27 PM    (permalink
Burns336
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First, I thought I saw Eli at #4 on the list.

Second, Witten has taken DT's on head up from the H-back spot which I can guarantee neither Gates or Winslow will ever attempt.

I believe both Gates and Winslow also take the majority of their snaps in the Slot -- playing more like a WR than a TE, although I guess that doesn't matter much.

Still -- this whole thing about Witten being "not as athletic" as Gates or Winslow is crap. Witten had a better season than both of them as a blocker and as a RECEIVER last year. Witten has great hands, he never goes down on first contact, and he's tough as nails. Dude is the best TE in the league. There is no reason he shouldn't produce close to and possibly better than he did last year.
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Old 07-28-2008, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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Tons of Chiefs hate lately. Yeah, we're a bad team, but Tony G is a top 3 TE in this league. He's about to break every record for a TE and he's a solid to good blocker. Even when our offense is absolute trash, he is a big time playmaker.
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Old 07-28-2008, 10:15 PM    (permalink
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Eli is too high....The running back list is solid.....Andre Johnson at three is a good choice...I think Gates and Witten should be ahead of Winslow and perhaps a bit of love for heath miller
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Old 07-28-2008, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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Eli Manning is begining to get so overrated. He had a great post season. Lets see him have atleast one good season before we call him the 4th best QB in the league.

Other than that the lists are solid. I'd say they're to much based on what everyone did last year rather than the complete player, but it is a what have you done for me lately league so it fits.
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Old 07-29-2008, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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Gonzalez at 5th for tight ends is ridiculous.
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Old 07-29-2008, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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No mention of Shockey? his receiving numbers have gone down and he's had injury problems but he hasn't been a primary target lately and has become a dominant blocker. I think he'll have a disgusting season in New Orleans with Payton calling plays for him again and Brees getting to us a top TE again.
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:28 AM    (permalink
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It's a bit odd that the number, what...2 or 3? offense from last year would never have top 5 in any category according to most people( not disagreeing). Must be the coach, aye?
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:51 AM    (permalink
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First, I thought I saw Eli at #4 on the list.

Second, Witten has taken DT's on head up from the H-back spot which I can guarantee neither Gates or Winslow will ever attempt.

I believe both Gates and Winslow also take the majority of their snaps in the Slot -- playing more like a WR than a TE, although I guess that doesn't matter much.

Still -- this whole thing about Witten being "not as athletic" as Gates or Winslow is crap. Witten had a better season than both of them as a blocker and as a RECEIVER last year. Witten has great hands, he never goes down on first contact, and he's tough as nails. Dude is the best TE in the league. There is no reason he shouldn't produce close to and possibly better than he did last year.
Winslow and Gates are more athletic than Witten. That much is clear. Does that make them better TEs? No, but it makes them more dangerous weapons in the passing game overall. You have your opinion, I have mine. I think both Winslow and Gates will have better seasons than Witten.

Look at all the other posts people have written here. Everybody thinks the players on their team or the players they like are the best. That's great, but it doesn't make it reality.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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Tons of Chiefs hate lately. Yeah, we're a bad team, but Tony G is a top 3 TE in this league. He's about to break every record for a TE and he's a solid to good blocker. Even when our offense is absolute trash, he is a big time playmaker.
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Gonzalez at 5th for tight ends is ridiculous.
I would be very surprised if Gonzalez outperformed Gates, Winslow, Witten, or Cooley this season. All of those players are in their primes in a good situation whereas Gonzalez is declining and is in a bad situation. Even last year, I think it's tough to rate Gonzalez above those guys.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:55 AM    (permalink
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No mention of Shockey? his receiving numbers have gone down and he's had injury problems but he hasn't been a primary target lately and has become a dominant blocker. I think he'll have a disgusting season in New Orleans with Payton calling plays for him again and Brees getting to us a top TE again.
That's your opinion and that's fine. However, I can't see him displacing anybody on that list unless Gonzalez declines more than I'm predicting or somebody gets injured. He's a very good blocker but tight ends are being asked to do that less and less these days. I think the matchup problems they present are a much more important factor for most teams, the Saints included.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:57 AM    (permalink
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It's a bit odd that the number, what...2 or 3? offense from last year would never have top 5 in any category according to most people( not disagreeing). Must be the coach, aye?
The Packers are indeed a top offensive unit but it's more because they have a bunch of very good players, but no real stars. Other than Rodgers, that offense is pretty much weakness free (just because we don't know how Rodgers will turn out yet). Jennings might make the list one day but it's tough for a receiver to really stand out in the Packers' system.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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I would be very surprised if Gonzalez outperformed Gates, Winslow, Witten, or Cooley this season. All of those players are in their primes in a good situation whereas Gonzalez is declining and is in a bad situation. Even last year, I think it's tough to rate Gonzalez above those guys.
You should look at the stats Tony Gonzalez put up last year in a year he was apparently "declining" according to you.

Let's look at the stats.

Tony Gonzalez - 99 Receptions, 1172 yards, 11.8 average, 73.3 yards per game, 5 touchdowns.

Jason Witten - 96 Receptions, 1145 yards, 11.9 average, 71.6 yards per game, 7 touchdowns

Kellen Winslow - 88 Receptions, 1106 yards, 13.5 average, 69.1 yards per game, 5 touchdowns

Antonio Gates - 75 Receptions, 984 yards, 13.1 average, 61.5 yards per game, 9 touchdowns.

I'm curious as to how it's difficult to rate Gonzalez higher than those guys based on last years stats? He had more receptions, more yards, more yards per game and a pretty solid number of touchdowns on ONE OF THE LEAGUES WORST OFFENSES. He is far from declining.

I understand the KC hate. We have a bad team. We're in full rebuilding mode. We'll be lucky to win 4 games again this year, but what's with the Tony Gonzalez hate? He's an elite TE in this league. He's made every pro-bowl since 1999. It might be the homer in me talking, but seriously.

I understand these are your "personal rankings" and that's fine, but when you bring in stats, do your homework.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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You should look at the stats Tony Gonzalez put up last year in a year he was apparently "declining" according to you.

Let's look at the stats.

Tony Gonzalez - 99 Receptions, 1172 yards, 11.8 average, 73.3 yards per game, 5 touchdowns.

Jason Witten - 96 Receptions, 1145 yards, 11.9 average, 71.6 yards per game, 7 touchdowns

Kellen Winslow - 88 Receptions, 1106 yards, 13.5 average, 69.1 yards per game, 5 touchdowns

Antonio Gates - 75 Receptions, 984 yards, 13.1 average, 61.5 yards per game, 9 touchdowns.

I'm curious as to how it's difficult to rate Gonzalez higher than those guys based on last years stats? He had more receptions, more yards, more yards per game and a pretty solid number of touchdowns on ONE OF THE LEAGUES WORST OFFENSES. He is far from declining.

I understand the KC hate. We have a bad team. We're in full rebuilding mode. We'll be lucky to win 4 games again this year, but what's with the Tony Gonzalez hate? He's an elite TE in this league. He's made every pro-bowl since 1999. It might be the homer in me talking, but seriously.

I understand these are your "personal rankings" and that's fine, but when you bring in stats, do your homework.
I never mentioned statistics. My points were merely about play on the field and Gonzalez was not better than the 4 TEs I listed.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Even last year, I think it's tough to rate Gonzalez above those guys.
If you weren't talking about statistics, what did this line mean?

And how could his play on the field not be as good as the others after I showed you the season statistics? The only person on that list who blocks better is Antonio Gates. Tony Gonzalez is a complete TE.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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Gonzo is not declining as much as presumed. I would say compared to last year, Gonzo's situation got better. healthy LJ, a better line, a better d bowe, a better Croyles. i would put Tony G in the 3-4 range. Last year was arguably his 2nd best year of his career..if he matches those numbers with that crap he had around him you can't argue that he is not a top 3-4 TE.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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If you weren't talking about statistics, what did this line mean?

And how could his play on the field not be as good as the others after I showed you the season statistics? The only person on that list who blocks better is Antonio Gates. Tony Gonzalez is a complete TE.
Statistics are only one element to be used when grading a player. This is even more true when the statistics are so close as they are in the case of the elite TEs. Did Reggie Wayne outplay Randy Moss last year because he had more receptions and yards? Of course not.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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Statistics are only one element to be used when grading a player. This is even more true when the statistics are so close as they are in the case of the elite TEs. Did Reggie Wayne outplay Randy Moss last year because he had more receptions and yards? Of course not.
You're absolutely right. Statistics are not the end all when it comes to grading a player. I stated statistics to show that the "decline" people think he's experiencing is obviously not there.

You mention other factors when grading a player. I'd be really interested to know what those are and how they went into determining, without a doubt in your mind, that Tony was not as good as the others listed "on the field." I'm actually quite curious what went into it.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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You're absolutely right. Statistics are not the end all when it comes to grading a player. I stated statistics to show that the "decline" people think he's experiencing is obviously not there.

You mention other factors when grading a player. I'd be really interested to know what those are and how they went into determining, without a doubt in your mind, that Tony was not as good as the others listed "on the field". I'm actually quite curious what went into it.
So you honestly don't believe Gonzalez is a worse player now as opposed to 3-4 years ago?

Gates is the most unstoppable TE in the game. His size, leaping ability, and ball skills make him an impossible matchup. He demands a ton of attention and still shreds defenses.

Winslow is basically a big WR playing TE. His speed is unmatched at the position with the exception of possibly Vernon Davis. He is another matchup nightmare because of his freakish size/speed combination. Add in the fact that he really knows how to play the game and you have, in my opinion, the most well-rounded receiving TE in the league. He is a threat to take it all the way on any route he runs and anytime he touches the ball.

Witten isn't quite the athlete Winslow is but he's arguably a bit tougher and harder to bring down. As well, his all-around game is unmatched in the NFL at the TE position. You rarely see him make mistakes and he can both block and receive with great versatility. He's not a game breaker in the same mold as Winslow or Gates, but his consistency is arguably the best in the league.

Gonzalez isn't a matchup nightmare like a Winslow or Gates. He's not as tough to bring down as Witten or as good across the middle. He's a great player, but he just doesn't have the same toolbox as the tight ends I listed ahead of him.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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So you honestly don't believe Gonzalez is a worse player now as opposed to 3-4 years ago?

Gates is the most unstoppable TE in the game. His size, leaping ability, and ball skills make him an impossible matchup. He demands a ton of attention and still shreds defenses.

Winslow is basically a big WR playing TE. His speed is unmatched at the position with the exception of possibly Vernon Davis. He is another matchup nightmare because of his freakish size/speed combination. Add in the fact that he really knows how to play the game and you have, in my opinion, the most well-rounded receiving TE in the league. He is a threat to take it all the way on any route he runs and anytime he touches the ball.

Witten isn't quite the athlete Winslow is but he's arguably a bit tougher and harder to bring down. As well, his all-around game is unmatched in the NFL at the TE position. You rarely see him make mistakes and he can both block and receive with great versatility. He's not a game breaker in the same mold as Winslow or Gates, but his consistency is arguably the best in the league.

Gonzalez isn't a matchup nightmare like a Winslow or Gates. He's not as tough to bring down as Witten or as good across the middle. He's a great player, but he just doesn't have the same toolbox as the tight ends I listed ahead of him.
You should really watch more Chiefs games if that's your honest "assessment" of Tony and his "toolbox."

As for the comparison between Tony and other TEs: Tony is taller than Antonio Gates, but no mention of size for him. He rarely drops a pass thrown his way and makes sick adjustments on bad passes (which we had a lot of last year) but he's not a matchup problem?

He is an excellent route runner, goes across the middle and is difficult to take down. Not to mention, aside from Gates, Tony is the most COMPLETE TE in the game. You can't completely disregard blocking ability in a TE. It's a very underrated skill, and Tony is a good blocker. If you're talking JUST receiving, I'd still put him 3rd, but if you're talking about COMPLETE TE, route running, catching in traffic, blocking, team leadership, etc, you will be hard pressed to find a better TE than Tony Gonzalez.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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The Packers are indeed a top offensive unit but it's more because they have a bunch of very good players, but no real stars. Other than Rodgers, that offense is pretty much weakness free (just because we don't know how Rodgers will turn out yet). Jennings might make the list one day but it's tough for a receiver to really stand out in the Packers' system.
That's what I was getting at... No real superstars on that offense(aside from T) now that Favre is gone, but it's just a dang good unit and scheme.
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Old 07-29-2008, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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You should really watch more Chiefs games if that's your honest "assessment" of Tony and his "toolbox."

As for the comparison between Tony and other TEs: Tony is taller than Antonio Gates, but no mention of size for him. He rarely drops a pass thrown his way and makes sick adjustments on bad passes (which we had a lot of last year) but he's not a matchup problem?

He is an excellent route runner, goes across the middle and is difficult to take down. Not to mention, aside from Gates, Tony is the most COMPLETE TE in the game. You can't completely disregard blocking ability in a TE. It's a very underrated skill, and Tony is a good blocker. If you're talking JUST receiving, I'd still put him 3rd, but if you're talking about COMPLETE TE, route running, catching in traffic, blocking, team leadership, etc, you will be hard pressed to find a better TE than Tony Gonzalez.
Gonzalez is a matchup problem, but not at the level of Gates or Winslow.

I can see there is no convincing you, so there is no reason to continue this discussion. Thank you for your input, and feel free to make your own list if you do not like mine.
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Gonzalez is a matchup problem, but not at the level of Gates or Winslow.

I can see there is no convincing you, so there is no reason to continue this discussion. Thank you for your input, and feel free to make your own list if you do not like mine.
You're right, there is no convincing me. And you're more than welcome. It was fun.
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MOTU View Post
Gonzalez is a matchup problem, but not at the level of Gates or Winslow.

I can see there is no convincing you, so there is no reason to continue this discussion. Thank you for your input, and feel free to make your own list if you do not like mine.
NFLDC 101: do not argue about the team people have in their screen name with those people. It's pretty much impossible.
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:04 PM    (permalink
vidae
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NFLDC 101: do not argue about the team people have in their screen name with those people. It's pretty much impossible.
People bash on our defense, offensive line, offense in general, playcalling, front office and quarterback situation and I'm agreeing 99.9% of the time, but the one time I speak out against something I disagree with I'm labeled a homer? I guess.. ;p
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:05 PM    (permalink
Bengalsrocket
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Originally Posted by MOTU View Post
Gonzalez is a matchup problem, but not at the level of Gates or Winslow.

I can see there is no convincing you, so there is no reason to continue this discussion. Thank you for your input, and feel free to make your own list if you do not like mine.
I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but there seems to be a sudden surge of fans who think players lose their ability to play once they go into their 30's. Gonzalez can still play man, I don't see any signs of him being weaker in the injury or the performance department myself.

Maybe he plays on a crappier team, but that would only reinforce a critics opinions about his skill. Do you realize Gates / Winslow get less attention because their team has more weapons? once L.J. went down, the only thing opposing defenses had to worry about was Gonzalez last year. Yet despite that, he still put up some pretty good stats and is on his way to breaking every major TE record.
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