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Old 08-03-2008, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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I think BBD is severely underrating Grant, I'd take him over any of the Giants' runningbacks. He's a very good combo of vision, speed, and power. He could improve a bit as a receiver, but he's almost fluid the way he moves through the first 5-10 yards past the LOS. Perfect fit for the Packers, well beyond the rest of their runningbacks so I'll agree with BBD on that point (Jackson and Wynn are more of a banger mold than slasher mold).

I have much less of a problem with this signing than the Cowboys' major deal for Marion Barber, which struck me as stupid when I heard it and still feel the same. It's completely stupid to give that much money to Barber, when they drafted Felix Jones in the 1st freaking round and Tashard Choice (who can't break a homerun like Grant, dream on BBD), when Barber plays such a physical game, and when they have serious concerns about the pathetic future at WR and the need to sign DeMarcus Ware long-term. You don't give that much money to a runningback when you have a franchise quarterback who can win you games, you give that quarterback weapons so he can do that.
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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I think BBD is severely underrating Grant, I'd take him over any of the Giants' runningbacks. He's a very good combo of vision, speed, and power. He could improve a bit as a receiver, but he's almost fluid the way he moves through the first 5-10 yards past the LOS. Perfect fit for the Packers, well beyond the rest of their runningbacks so I'll agree with BBD on that point (Jackson and Wynn are more of a banger mold than slasher mold).

I have much less of a problem with this signing than the Cowboys' major deal for Marion Barber, which struck me as stupid when I heard it and still feel the same. It's completely stupid to give that much money to Barber, when they drafted Felix Jones in the 1st freaking round and Tashard Choice (who can't break a homerun like Grant, dream on BBD), when Barber plays such a physical game, and when they have serious concerns about the pathetic future at WR and the need to sign DeMarcus Ware long-term. You don't give that much money to a runningback when you have a franchise quarterback who can win you games, you give that quarterback weapons so he can do that.
See that makes no sense.. So our 4th string RB, which Grant was, you'd take over our others? So you think our whole staff, front office and coaching made a mistake in seeing this? If he wasn't traded, he very well could be cut. I doubt he would have made the roster over Ward or Droughns.

Dude, he is a good player, in a sick system, with damn good offensive linemen. That's all he is. I actually agree with BBD in this case, especially since he was on our team.
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Old 08-03-2008, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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See that makes no sense.. So our 4th string RB, which Grant was, you'd take over our others? So you think our whole staff, front office and coaching made a mistake in seeing this? If he wasn't traded, he very well could be cut. I doubt he would have made the roster over Ward or Droughns.

Dude, he is a good player, in a sick system, with damn good offensive linemen. That's all he is. I actually agree with BBD in this case, especially since he was on our team.
So you actually think Grant isn't good enough to make the Giants roster? He outperformed every Giants runningback last season.

Also, the Packers run blocking was very inconsistent last season. They are built to pass block and it shows because they certainly do not dominate the run game.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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So Grant was undrafted and 4th string with the Giants last preseason before Green Bay traded for him. Heck, he was probably 4th string with the Packers behind Jackson, Morency, and Wynn. Who cares. Once he got his chance, Grant proved he can play and play very well. I'd take him over Willis McGahee who came into the league as a first round pick.

And the Giants run a very-good run-blocking offense themselves, as evidenced by a solid JAG like Ward coming in and doing very well until he broke his leg. I find it funny that we're giving so much credit to the Packers' offensive line but not the Giants' offensive line when it comes to their runningbacks. Maybe Jeremy Shockey blocked all seven guys on his lonesome, that's it, up until he got traded of course.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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So you actually think Grant isn't good enough to make the Giants roster? He outperformed every Giants runningback last season.

Also, the Packers run blocking was very inconsistent last season. They are built to pass block and it shows because they certainly do not dominate the run game.
Nope, we weren't going to keep him. He wouldn't have fit in OUR system. Our system isn't the same as GB's system. Like i said a guy who couldn't crack our roster, had great success in another system, with their players executing that system. He was very productive in that system, which is one of the reasons why I never compare people in different systems, ie top 10 RBs, top 10 qbs, and junk like that. He played very well, but after watching that packers team play last season, and really figuring out how that system works, and what formations they use, I put alot of the success to their OC, and his creativity, and the offensive linemen. Just a very good system, and they managed to find a back that fits perfectly. Kudos to them on making that deal.

Now having said that, he isn't the right fit in our system, and thus never really rose in the depth charts for us.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Grant is not better than our running backs. Not at least in our system. I think thats the point that me and Shock are trying to make. Grant is great for that system, but if you stuck him in a different one he becomes an average back rather quickly. Case in point, the Giants knew Grant like the back of our hand after practicing with him for 2+ years, and what happens in the NFC Championship game? He gets 20 yards. All we had to do was figure out that run blocking scheme and attack that, and force Grant to make things happen on his own against us. He couldn't do it. If you throw any RB with decent power, speed and cutback ability in that Packer system, they will flourish. Its the system more than its Grant. Theres a lot of RBs that would thrive in GB.

The problem for GB was besides Grant, they had terrible RBs. None had the vision, cutback, or power (outside a healthy Wynn, who btw was doing very well until he got hurt) to work in that system. Grant did, and he flourished. But stick Grant in say, Buffalo, and he'll be lucky to get 1000 yards over 16 games.

And theres no way on earth he's better than Ahmad Bradshaw. I might be alone in this, but if Bradshaw can keep his head on straight he's the next Brian Westbrook. He's a beast in the making. And for all the knocks I have on Brandon Jacobs, he had the 2nd highest YPC next to AD last year. Ward averaged 4.8 YPC which is not shabby either. And they weren't running against 6 in the box like Grant was.

I honestly think that had Wynn never gotten injured he wouldve been the breakout story that Grant is today. Wynn was doing well in GB and with more touches was getting more and more comfortable in that system. The problem with Wynn is that he'll never stay healthy. Its not Grant, its the system.

Ive seen Grant play longer than most GB fans, considering he's only been in GB for less than a year and played for around half a season. I know Ryan Grant. Throw Ryan Grant in Chicago, and he'd be an average player. He wouldn't suck by any means, but he's not a top tier RB either.


But like i said, most RBs these days aren't. Very few RBs are special, which is why im a big fan of the RBC.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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I don't really like the deal in the grand scope of things. Zone Blocking running schemes have a history of one-year wonders who falter or don't quite produce the following year, and who knows how a Favre-less Packers will keep teams from stacking the line.

Comparing Grant's contract to someone like Justin Fargas (3 years, 12 million, 2 million of which is incentive), Grant definitely got an excess of money. However, Fargas is known as an injury risk and he's 3 years older than Grant.

Green Bay has protected themselves decently with this deal. The only Grant collects the full amount is to be a top runner the next few seasons, so that is a win-win for the Pack. I think the overall value of the deal is too high, but the Packers needed Grant in camp and they had to overpay to do it.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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So Grant was undrafted and 4th string with the Giants last preseason before Green Bay traded for him. Heck, he was probably 4th string with the Packers behind Jackson, Morency, and Wynn. Who cares. Once he got his chance, Grant proved he can play and play very well. I'd take him over Willis McGahee who came into the league as a first round pick.

And the Giants run a very-good run-blocking offense themselves, as evidenced by a solid JAG like Ward coming in and doing very well until he broke his leg. I find it funny that we're giving so much credit to the Packers' offensive line but not the Giants' offensive line when it comes to their runningbacks. Maybe Jeremy Shockey blocked all seven guys on his lonesome, that's it, up until he got traded of course.
thats bc our RBs are the product of the system as well. i'll never toute Jacobs or Ward as top tier guys. I see Bradshaw having that potential, but he's not there yet. Thats why I rave about Bradshaw. Thats also why I never felt losing Barber was that big of a deal as many outsiders felt it was. Our run game is the product of the system as well. The only RB we have that I can see flourish anywhere is Ahmad Bradshaw.


Ward and Grant are mirror images of each other in a sense that they thrive on their respective systems. Outside of the system, theyre average guys.

As for our oline, its one of the best run blocking units in the league. Its weakness however is pass protection, in particular, containing speed rushers on the edges.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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LOL. This cracks me up. The same few cutbacks Bradshaw makes, Grant does it better and more often. And Grant is bigger and yet more of a fluid runner. Grant has better vision inside than either Bradshaw or Jacobs, at least what Bradshaw exhibited this past season (fair to mention that he is a rookie).

Because the Giants defense stifled the Packers' running game, that is Grant's fault. Okay, sure. Put Grant on the one-yard line against the Giants and see if he doesn't score like Jacobs and Bradshaw did. Mind you, Bradshaw was stopped like the scat back he is, "he scored a TD" because his lineman bear-hugged him and took him into the endzone for the score. But that's all Bradshaw, because he's the next Westbrook. Sure.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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So Grant was undrafted and 4th string with the Giants last preseason before Green Bay traded for him. Heck, he was probably 4th string with the Packers behind Jackson, Morency, and Wynn. Who cares. Once he got his chance, Grant proved he can play and play very well. I'd take him over Willis McGahee who came into the league as a first round pick.

And the Giants run a very-good run-blocking offense themselves, as evidenced by a solid JAG like Ward coming in and doing very well until he broke his leg. I find it funny that we're giving so much credit to the Packers' offensive line but not the Giants' offensive line when it comes to their runningbacks. Maybe Jeremy Shockey blocked all seven guys on his lonesome, that's it, up until he got traded of course.
Geo, you're missing the point completely man. Yes we have a good run blocking offensive line, BUT WE RUN A DIFFERENT SYSTEM! Within our system, he couldn't do what we asked him to do effectively like the other backs. We saw he had talent, hence us signing him, and bringing him back I believe 2 training camps or so.

But we many different concepts that GB doesn't run on offense. The two systems are night and day dude! Yes both offensive linemen are good for their respective teams, but they execute different systems at a high level. He didn't fit in our system, and when he had a shot couldn't do it. So he gets traded to a system that can best showcase his abilities.

As for Shockey he was a huge part of our running game. Once he went down, we couldn't run our bread and butter play,( favorite play) on offense anymore effectively, because Boss would get his jock handed to him consistently.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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LOL. This cracks me up. The same few cutbacks Bradshaw makes, Grant does it better and more often. And Grant is bigger and yet more of a fluid runner. Grant has better vision inside than either Bradshaw or Jacobs, at least what Bradshaw exhibited this past season (fair to mention that he is a rookie).

Because the Giants defense stifled the Packers' running game, that is Grant's fault. Okay, sure. Put Grant on the one-yard line against the Giants and see if he doesn't score like Jacobs and Bradshaw did. Mind you, Bradshaw was stopped like the scat back he is, "he scored a TD" because his lineman bear-hugged him and took him into the endzone for the score. But that's all Bradshaw, because he's the next Westbrook. Sure.
Grant is not even close to Bradshaw when it comes to burst, speed, or cutback ability. Bradshaw is almost identical to Westbrook in those categories. Bradshaw has some of the best vision and balance ive seen of any RB in the league. The only issue with him is his size and potential durability. Thats the only reason why I haven't hailed him as already as good as Westbrook. He can block, run, catch, he can do everything Westbrook can, he even runs harder between the tackles. However, he's still unproven and needs to show he can handle an excess of carries before I declare him that good without caution.

Grant is Derrick Ward with less ability in the pass game. Thats why we cut Grant and kept Ward. I think youre severely overrating Ryan Grant.

And Grant cuts back more often bc we're not a cutback run game. Its built for power runs on the outside. Not to mention our sample size of Bradshaw is much smaller than that of Grant.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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And theres no way on earth he's better than Ahmad Bradshaw. I might be alone in this, but if Bradshaw can keep his head on straight he's the next Brian Westbrook. He's a beast in the making. And for all the knocks I have on Brandon Jacobs, he had the 2nd highest YPC next to AD last year. Ward averaged 4.8 YPC which is not shabby either. And they weren't running against 6 in the box like Grant was.
That's a complete load of BS that Grant was running against six in the box. Look at the games against Carolina, Oakland, Seattle, and so on. More like eight in the box, than six.

To be fair, Green Bay had a tight end blocking and a fullback, as they sought to accentuate their running game once Grant emerged.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Im probably coming off as a Grant hater when thats not my intentions. I just think he's being overrated based on the production that his #s indicate.


According to the #s, Jacobs was just as effective as AD. I think you'd have to be legally insane to think Jacobs is anywhere near the RB AD is.

Grant is solid, but he's nothing to lose sleep over. I guarantee you if GB had a credible backup RB behind Grant they wouldn't make this deal. Only reason why this deal was done was because GB had no leverage to be able to walk away from him without skipping a beat on offense.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Im probably coming off as a Grant hater when thats not my intentions. I just think he's being overrated based on the production that his #s indicate.


According to the #s, Jacobs was just as effective as AD. I think you'd have to be legally insane to think Jacobs is anywhere near the RB AD is.

Grant is solid, but he's nothing to lose sleep over. I guarantee you if GB had a credible backup RB behind Grant they wouldn't make this deal. Only reason why this deal was done was because GB had no leverage to be able to walk away from him without skipping a beat on offense.
Are you kidding me? How is Jacobs as effective as AD from a statistical perspective?

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Old 08-03-2008, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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That's a complete load of BS that Grant was running against six in the box. Look at the games against Carolina, Oakland, Seattle, and so on. More like eight in the box, than six.

To be fair, Green Bay had a tight end blocking and a fullback, as they sought to accentuate their running game once Grant emerged.
Grant is no where near the player Bradshaw has from a skill set point of view. Bradshaw had a 3rd-4th round round grade on him, but dropped due to that college character incident. And for the record I am not Jacobs fan, I think our most talented runner is Bradshaw. I think from a talent, skill set point of view he is better than Jacobs, Ward, Droughns, and Grant.

8 in the box means nothing from what they run. They run outside zone, inside zone, and stretch, but this is where the creativity makes in from their OC. They run 2 concepts in one play!!! That's amazing in my opinion, so meaning, they run outside zone on the playside, and LEAD on the backside. And to do this they have 2 FBs in the backfield, as any GB fan can agree on. From I saw they run one RB playside, and the other targeting the trailing backside LB. And Grant does have good vision, and good agility, and balance that allows him to make a read playside, and if nothing is open, he can follow the backside LB, and take off. Great, Great play design in my option. So if the players all flow playside to stop outside zone, then he can cut back and hit the weakside option, and catch the whole freakin defense flowing the wrong way!!!

Look at the diagram below. First row, upper right play. Actually the more people in the box the better, because you get people flowing one way, and because they combo, and chip off they can leach themselves onto the 2nd level guys, meaning there are less players in the 3rd level.

In the play I mentioned below, if Strahan doesn't make that tackle, we are in trouble. That TE shivers Strahan and chips off and gets the SS. The weakside FB gets the weakside LB, meaning no one is left to catch Grant if he breaks out. It's honestly a sick system! I wish we did more of that, then what we do, to tell you truth. I think our system is pretty damn boring!

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Old 08-03-2008, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Are you kidding me? How is Jacobs as effective as AD from a statistical perspective?

look at those #s again, and tell me if you see a glaring difference statistically between the 2.


Peterson mind you played 3 more games and essentially rushed for 300 more yards in the season than Jacobs did.

They are not very far off from a statistical perspective. But Jacobs isn't even 30% of the RB that Peterson is. It goes beyond the numbers, and thats the case for Ryan Grant as well. While he, similarly to Jacobs, puts up great #s, he's not the RB that those numbers indicate. He's just not.


I give props to those who I feel deserve it. I never hate on the game of another player just because he doesn't play for my team, I give credit where credit is due. And I like Grant, but I just think that he's being severely overrated based on last season. I know Ryan Grant. Theres a lot of RBs in this league that I would take over Ryan Grant.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Shock always explains it so much better lol. Love having a poster like that post for us, he diagrams everything. Can't wait to see your breakdowns this year Shock.

It adds more validity to what we're trying to say.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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look at those #s again, and tell me if you see a glaring difference statistically between the 2.


Peterson mind you played 3 more games and essentially rushed for 300 more yards in the season than Jacobs did.

They are not very far off from a statistical perspective. But Jacobs isn't even 30% of the RB that Peterson is. It goes beyond the numbers, and thats the case for Ryan Grant as well. While he, similarly to Jacobs, puts up great #s, he's not the RB that those numbers indicate. He's just not.


I give props to those who I feel deserve it. I never hate on the game of another player just because he doesn't play for my team, I give credit where credit is due. And I like Grant, but I just think that he's being severely overrated based on last season. I know Ryan Grant. Theres a lot of RBs in this league that I would take over Ryan Grant.
Peterson averages 0.6 more YPC, which is a ton for that statistic. That alone shows you the difference in caliber statistically. Throw in the fact that he has 3 times the amount of touchdowns, 300+ more yards, more receiving yards, etc. and it's not close. If you think they are close statistically, then basically every starting RB in the league could be said to be similar statistically to each other.

You would take Drougns and Ward over Grant? That is laughable.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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Peterson averages 0.6 more YPC, which is a ton for that statistic. That alone shows you the difference in caliber statistically. Throw in the fact that he has 3 times the amount of touchdowns, 300+ more yards, more receiving yards, etc. and it's not close. If you think they are close statistically, then basically every starting RB in the league could be said to be similar statistically to each other.
1. Jacobs wasn't our goalline back for the majority of the season. Rouben Droughns was. (why?...no idea, ask Coughlin. i think its bc Jacobs runs high and can fumble).

2. Jacobs doesn't run many WR routes bc our system asks the RB to stay in and block majority of the time. We abandoned this vertical strike offense in the playoffs for the most part, but for the majority of the season still ran it. (Which is a big reason why Ive been saying for 3 years now that we need to rid of the vertical style offense for Eli to flourish. We rid it in the playoffs along with option routes, and like magic, Eli shines. It wasn't coincidence. It wasn't an imaginary "corner" being turned, it was a coaching adjustment that us Giant fans have been begging for 3 years now to happen).

3. Peterson in 3 more games played, really only rushed for 300 more yards. That was a very reachable plateau for Jacobs had he played an equal amount of games to Peterson.

So yes, in my opinion, they were similar statistically. Not even close as players, but statistically I do feel they were similar.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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1. Jacobs wasn't our goalline back for the majority of the season. Rouben Droughns was. (why?...no idea, ask Coughlin. i think its bc Jacobs runs high and can fumble).

2. Jacobs doesn't run many WR routes bc our system asks the RB to stay in and block majority of the time. We abandoned this vertical strike offense in the playoffs for the most part, but for the majority of the season still ran it. (Which is a big reason why Ive been saying for 3 years now that we need to rid of the vertical style offense for Eli to flourish. We rid it in the playoffs along with option routes, and like magic, Eli shines. It wasn't coincidence. It wasn't an imaginary "corner" being turned, it was a coaching adjustment that us Giant fans have been begging for 3 years now to happen).

3. Peterson in 3 more games played, really only rushed for 300 more yards. That was a very reachable plateau for Jacobs had he played an equal amount of games to Peterson.

So yes, in my opinion, they were similar statistically. Not even close as players, but statistically I do feel they were similar.
Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about if you think those stats don't clearly show that Peterson is significantly better from a statistical standpoint. 0.6 YPC is a huge difference for NFL RBs and Peterson has him beat in essentially every statistical category.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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Shock always explains it so much better lol. Love having a poster like that post for us, he diagrams everything. Can't wait to see your breakdowns this year Shock.

It adds more validity to what we're trying to say.
Well when it comes to our offense, I certainly know what I am talking about. Usually I don't really care about our defense. I just fast forward through that "boring" stuff! But I saw right away this GB system was damn creative, and so I documented their formations, and their passing and running plays, and I loved it. Compared to them, our stuff is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring!

I am still applying to college programs, and then try HS, but if I can't get on this year, the one positive will mean I can actually watch all the games early on in the season in detail.

Football is turning into a #s thing now. NO one watches to see what plays are being run and strategy involved. The AVG fan just looks at #s, or for the younger ones, uses madden rating, and fantasy league points for players to judge, who is good and who is bad. I see this watching some of the younger Giants members on Giants.com, since I mod there. I had this talk with a DC for one of the HS teams on our giants.com board. Madden, and FF league are killing football. #s is good to analyze as a supplement to what's going on.

But if you really want to learn more about the game, disregard all #s, and see how each player can run the same play. So for us see who Jacobs runs "power" vs Bradshaw. Then see how the results changfe when Shockey went down. How does production change based on 1 player gettng injuried? It happened for us. Jacobs couldn't run power without Shockey sealing the edge, but Bradshaw could because he has better vision, and agility than Jacobs.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about if you think those stats don't clearly show that Peterson is significantly better from a statistical standpoint. 0.6 YPC is a huge difference for NFL RBs and Peterson has him beat in essentially every statistical category.
actually, Id make an argument that Jacobs has him beat in the pass game statistics, or at the very least, was equal, considering he played 3 less games.

which is a point that should not be overlooked.

.6 yards per carry is a huge difference when we're talking about 3.8 compared to 4.4

when you average 5+ ypc, youre doing pretty good regardless. at that point, the significance of the deviation is less significant.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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actually, Id make an argument that Jacobs has him beat in the pass game statistics, or at the very least, was equal, considering he played 3 less games.

which is a point that should not be overlooked.

.6 yards per carry is a huge difference when we're talking about 3.8 compared to 4.4

when you average 5+ ypc, youre doing pretty good regardless. at that point, the significance of the deviation is less significant.
Your homer shades are beyond ridiculous if you believe what you're writing.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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BBD, I would really like to try and stop you here..... I can see a little bit of your points but your arguments are becoming a bit crazy man.

AP and Jacobs have a few things in common sure, and the stats aren't all that wildly far apart, but....c'mon man. AP was a rookie and had one HELL of a season for a rookie even with missing a few games. Both guys were also injured for portions of last year so you can't even really use the injury prone argument to want to take Jacobs over AP.

I think right now, if you polled the board on who would you rather add to your team right now, AP or Jacobs, absolutely everyone is going to take AP. Jacobs is a good back but AP had godly potential if he can avoid injuries.

So while I can see the semblings of a point in what you say......its just sounding like mad homer craziness.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:08 PM    (permalink
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BBD, I would really like to try and stop you here..... I can see a little bit of your points but your arguments are becoming a bit crazy man.

AP and Jacobs have a few things in common sure, and the stats aren't all that wildly far apart, but....c'mon man. AP was a rookie and had one HELL of a season for a rookie even with missing a few games. Both guys were also injured for portions of last year so you can't even really use the injury prone argument to want to take Jacobs over AP.

I think right now, if you polled the board on who would you rather add to your team right now, AP or Jacobs, absolutely everyone is going to take AP. Jacobs is a good back but AP had godly potential if he can avoid injuries.

So while I can see the semblings of a point in what you say......its just sounding like mad homer craziness.
Nooo, youre mistaking my point. Ive clearly stated that AD is 1 billion times the player that Jacobs is.

I was using stats as a way of saying, based on statistics, they seem to be not far off from each other from a skill perspective, when in fact that is far from the truth. Jacobs is 30% of the RB AD is, yet according to stats, they at the very least seem both to be pretty good. Like i said, 5.6 ypc compared to 5.0 ypc is pretty good considering they both have a sick ypc average.

I brought that up to illustrate how stats are useless in football. A lot of ppl will claim that Grant is a great RB and throw the stats out. Im using this specific example as a means of illustrating how stats don't necessarily show the true worth of a player.

Get what im saying now? Maybe Im not being clear with how im trying to word my arguments.
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