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Old 08-03-2008, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Nooo, youre mistaking my point. Ive clearly stated that AD is 1 billion times the player that Jacobs is.

I was using stats as a way of saying, based on statistics, they seem to be not far off from each other from a skill perspective, when in fact that is far from the truth. Jacobs is 30% of the RB AD is, yet according to stats, they at the very least seem both to be pretty good. Like i said, 5.6 ypc compared to 5.0 ypc is pretty good considering they both have a sick ypc average.

I brought that up to illustrate how stats are useless in football. A lot of ppl will claim that Grant is a great RB and throw the stats out. Im using this specific example as a means of illustrating how stats don't necessarily show the true worth of a player.

Get what im saying now? Maybe Im not being clear with how im trying to word my arguments.
Statistics are a measure of how productive a player was. Basically you're trying to argue that Jacobs was about as productive as Peterson. That is just blind homerism.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Im probably coming off as a Grant hater when thats not my intentions. I just think he's being overrated based on the production that his #s indicate.


According to the #s, Jacobs was just as effective as AD. I think you'd have to be legally insane to think Jacobs is anywhere near the RB AD is.

Grant is solid, but he's nothing to lose sleep over. I guarantee you if GB had a credible backup RB behind Grant they wouldn't make this deal. Only reason why this deal was done was because GB had no leverage to be able to walk away from him without skipping a beat on offense.
highlighted for emphasis.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Nooo, youre mistaking my point. Ive clearly stated that AD is 1 billion times the player that Jacobs is.

I was using stats as a way of saying, based on statistics, they seem to be not far off from each other from a skill perspective, when in fact that is far from the truth. Jacobs is 30% of the RB AD is, yet according to stats, they at the very least seem both to be pretty good. Like i said, 5.6 ypc compared to 5.0 ypc is pretty good considering they both have a sick ypc average.

I brought that up to illustrate how stats are useless in football. A lot of ppl will claim that Grant is a great RB and throw the stats out. Im using this specific example as a means of illustrating how stats don't necessarily show the true worth of a player.

Get what im saying now? Maybe Im not being clear with how im trying to word my arguments.
Right, right, I get what your saying but to someone coming in in the middle of that (me) it sounded pretty bad for you....and I think several other people made the mistake too.

Anyways, if you go back to my initial post in all of this, I said that Grant was simply the best the Packers had which is true, and with already going into this season with questions at QB (presumably) theres no need to go in with questions at RB as the guys behind Grant on the roster are even less experienced than he is. It was an awkward situation for both the team and the player as you rarely see an Exclusive Rights FA turn out this way. He was facing something like 2 more seasons of the league minimum salary if he didn't get a new deal and clearly, he deserves more than that at least....

So yeah, I think you got a little off track there, heh
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Nooo, youre mistaking my point. Ive clearly stated that AD is 1 billion times the player that Jacobs is.

I was using stats as a way of saying, based on statistics, they seem to be not far off from each other from a skill perspective, when in fact that is far from the truth. Jacobs is 30% of the RB AD is, yet according to stats, they at the very least seem both to be pretty good. Like i said, 5.6 ypc compared to 5.0 ypc is pretty good considering they both have a sick ypc average.

I brought that up to illustrate how stats are useless in football. A lot of ppl will claim that Grant is a great RB and throw the stats out. Im using this specific example as a means of illustrating how stats don't necessarily show the true worth of a player.

Get what im saying now? Maybe Im not being clear with how im trying to word my arguments.

I see what you're saying.. Tell me if I am close in stating what your talking about.




The issue I see is talent vs talent & one from a production standpoint (stats).
Someone can be a BILLION times better, in terms of skill set, than another player, and still have similar production or stats. Now that doesn't mean they are close in talent. It just means production was similiar for whatever reason.

I think he is talking about production(stats) point. Everyone knows that AP is better, in terms of skill set than Jacobs. Hell, I'd rather start Bradshaw than Jacobs, but that's whole different topic.

But talent vs talent is one topic, and production as it reflects in stats vs another plays stats is another topic. He is just comparing production without saying who is better, because he knows AP is better than Jacobs. People to need realize someone stats can be similar, but talent can be worlds apart.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Statistics are a measure of how productive a player was. Basically you're trying to argue that Jacobs was about as productive as Peterson. That is just blind homerism.
stats mean nothing in football. and i suggest you either reread my posts more carefully, or improve your reading comprehension skills.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ForOneDayHeWouldBeKing View Post
Statistics are a measure of how productive a player was. Basically you're trying to argue that Jacobs was about as productive as Peterson. That is just blind homerism.
Did you read his post? At all?
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Right, right, I get what your saying but to someone coming in in the middle of that (me) it sounded pretty bad for you....and I think several other people made the mistake too.

Anyways, if you go back to my initial post in all of this, I said that Grant was simply the best the Packers had which is true, and with already going into this season with questions at QB (presumably) theres no need to go in with questions at RB as the guys behind Grant on the roster are even less experienced than he is. It was an awkward situation for both the team and the player as you rarely see an Exclusive Rights FA turn out this way. He was facing something like 2 more seasons of the league minimum salary if he didn't get a new deal and clearly, he deserves more than that at least....

So yeah, I think you got a little off track there, heh
no, i agree with you. ive stated that too. i feel that theyve given him the money bc basically they had no other options. they had terrible depth behind him, and had to pay him or at least get him on the field in some way for them to have a successful running attack this year.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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stats mean nothing in football. and i suggest you either reread my posts more carefully, or improve your reading comprehension skills.
I never said statistics were important. I said they are a measure of productivity, which Shock agrees with as evidenced by his post above.

You're trying to argue that last season Brandon Jacobs and Adrian Peterson produced at a similar level. I know that you're not talking about their skill, talent, or whatever else and I'm not either. But Peterson was significantly more productive, and thus significantly better statistically. Saying otherwise is just stupid.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:19 PM    (permalink
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I understand BBD's argument, and actually tend to agree with it.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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I see what you're saying.. Tell me if I am close in stating what your talking about.




The issue I see is talent vs talent & one from a production standpoint (stats).
Someone can be a BILLION times better, in terms of skill set, than another player, and still have similar production or stats. Now that doesn't mean they are close in talent. It just means production was similiar for whatever reason.

I think he is talking about production(stats) point. Everyone knows that AP is better, in terms of skill set than Jacobs. Hell, I'd rather start Bradshaw than Jacobs, but that's whole different topic.

But talent vs talent is one topic, and production as it reflects in stats vs another plays stats is another topic. He is just comparing production without saying who is better, because he knows AP is better than Jacobs. People to need realize someone stats can be similar, but talent can be worlds apart.
exactly. thats why when we analyze players, i try to stray away from looking at statistics, because in football they only tell 20% of the real story. the Xs and Os in football and the big picture is much more telling than any ypc, TD total or any other useless stat will tell you. Maybe in fantasy football this means something, but not in real football.

AD vs Jacobs is what i felt a good example of how misleading stats can be in football.



And to the Packer fans, I want to make this clear. I think Grant is solid, and I think he's a great match for your scheme. All Im saying is, he's not a top tier RB even though he seems like one. He's a replaceable player. He's great, but a lot of players would be great in that system. If anything, its more of a compliment to McCarthey and the great run blocking scheme you guys run. It really is brilliant, and I love McCarthey as a coach. He's a brilliant coach who runs a brilliant system.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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I never said statistics were important. I said they are a measure of productivity, which Shock agrees with as evidenced by his post above.

You're trying to argue that last season Brandon Jacobs and Adrian Peterson produced at a similar level. I know that you're not talking about their skill, talent, or whatever else and I'm not either. But Peterson was significantly more productive, and thus significantly better statistically. Saying otherwise is just stupid.
He's trying to argue that stats don't mean anything. Take Jerious Norwood's YPC, which is up on par with Adrian Peterson. All Day is still the better back, but what those stats say is that if Norwood had the same amount of carries he would be just as good. He's just trying to shun off the Packers fans who will bring up Grant's stats in those 10 games, and trying to claim he's an elite RB.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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He's trying to argue that stats don't mean anything. Take Jerious Norwood's YPC, which is up on par with Adrian Peterson. All Day is still the better back, but what those stats say is that if Norwood had the same amount of carries he would be just as good. He's just trying to shun off the Packers fans who will bring up Grant's stats in those 10 games, and trying to claim he's an elite RB.
I agree that statistics do not tell the whole story. But to argue that STATISTICALLY Brandon Jacobs and Adrian Peterson are similar is stupid. It's a bad example.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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I never said statistics were important. I said they are a measure of productivity, which Shock agrees with as evidenced by his post above.

You're trying to argue that last season Brandon Jacobs and Adrian Peterson produced at a similar level. I know that you're not talking about their skill, talent, or whatever else and I'm not either. But Peterson was significantly more productive, and thus significantly better statistically. Saying otherwise is just stupid.
they can be a measure of productivity, but not for an individual player. considering every play run in a game has 11 guys working together to make that play happen, i don't think its fair to give sole responsibility of any stat to a singular individual.

and like i said, even considering that, i felt the #s weren't that far off. its not like the numbers made Jacobs look like half the RB AD is. the #s made them look similar, and if you disagree with that, then you disagree. i'll just leave it at that.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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they can be a measure of productivity, but not for an individual player. considering every play run in a game has 11 guys working together to make that play happen, i don't think its fair to give sole responsibility of any stat to a singular individual.

and like i said, even considering that, i felt the #s weren't that far off. its not like the numbers made Jacobs look like half the RB AD is. the #s made them look similar, and if you disagree with that, then you disagree. i'll just leave it at that.
Like I said, it was a bad example.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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And to the Packer fans, I want to make this clear. I think Grant is solid, and I think he's a great match for your scheme. All Im saying is, he's not a top tier RB even though he seems like one. He's a replaceable player. He's great, but a lot of players would be great in that system. If anything, its more of a compliment to McCarthey and the great run blocking scheme you guys run. It really is brilliant, and I love McCarthey as a coach. He's a brilliant coach who runs a brilliant system.
Its hard to argue with someone who has that much love for our team and coach, haha. But, overall I don't think that this was too bad of a deal for us. Yes, it is a lot of money for a runningback who has only started half a season but it is very incentive based. And even if he is replaceable, we still can't replace him with anyone on our roster so we really needed him to get out there. Plus, we have plenty of cap room so its not like we couldn't afford to give in to some of his demands.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:33 PM    (permalink
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I think the Packers overpaid for Grant. I think he's a good runningback who showed a lot last season and his talent level is about in line with what he's getting paid. With that said, the Packers had all the leverage here and probably could have forced him to sign a lesser contract. There is something to be said to keeping your players happy and showing players that good play will be rewarded financially.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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exactly. thats why when we analyze players, i try to stray away from looking at statistics, because in football they only tell 20% of the real story. the Xs and Os in football and the big picture is much more telling than any ypc, TD total or any other useless stat will tell you. Maybe in fantasy football this means something, but not in real football.

AD vs Jacobs is what i felt a good example of how misleading stats can be in football.



And to the Packer fans, I want to make this clear. I think Grant is solid, and I think he's a great match for your scheme. All Im saying is, he's not a top tier RB even though he seems like one. He's a replaceable player. He's great, but a lot of players would be great in that system. If anything, its more of a compliment to McCarthey and the great run blocking scheme you guys run. It really is brilliant, and I love McCarthey as a coach. He's a brilliant coach who runs a brilliant system.

I don't even use stats, which is a problem when debating why I am not a fan of Jacobs, and why his skill set isn't nothing to brag about. People keep pointing to the yards per carry, again with the stat thing, but fail to see what skill set he possess run in and run out. Stats are nice for madden, and fantasy football, but I try to use them as a supplement to watching the Xs and Os.

Hopefully we run more unique formations and running plays out of them this season. I will be bored to death if see the same running plays ran again in our scheme.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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I think the Packers overpaid for Grant. I think he's a good runningback who showed a lot last season and his talent level is about in line with what he's getting paid. With that said, the Packers had all the leverage here and probably could have forced him to sign a lesser contract. There is something to be said to keeping your players happy and showing players that good play will be rewarded financially.
We may have had some leverage, but I think the impact that Grant has on our running game gave him a good amount of leverage. Especially with a new starter at QB, we need him more than ever this year.
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Old 08-03-2008, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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We may have had some leverage, but I think the impact that Grant has on our running game gave him a good amount of leverage. Especially with a new starter at QB, we need him more than ever this year.
The Packers definitely need the consistency he provides at runningback. Don't get me wrong. I just think that Grant would have no choice but to report and play for the Packers, even without a new contract. What else could he do?
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Old 08-03-2008, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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I hope he breaks both legs whiney *****
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:40 PM    (permalink
TitleTown088
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Thats why we cut Grant and kept Ward.
.
Cut? You mean traded for a 6th? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that when the Packers made that trade the Giants essentially said " take your pick" of Ward, Grant, and Bradshaw and the Packers choose Grant.
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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O Grant still is, but he is a better fit than the other RBs you and I, and everyone else can't remember. There was a reason why you guys traded for him. He has the perfect skills for your system, but still doesn't make him a top notch runner. He is a good back, in a great system, and I am happy for him. But my point is your system, offensive formations, and play design is pretty damn sick! Put in "a good fit" for that system, and I am not suprised at his success.
That's the exact reasoning why I hope Jacobs doesn't ask for a ridiculous number in FA this season. He's huge and we'll definately miss his size and ability to just crush all but big defensive lineman, but with an Oline and scheme that work as effectively as ours he's not crucial. I honestly I think that BJ could be even more effective than grant with some seasoning in GB which is why I don't like the idea of making too much of a commitment right now. Let Grant start for a whole season on a reasonable, say 3 mill for this season, deal and then work out an extension if you don't see any progress from Jackson and Grant lights it up again.
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:44 PM    (permalink
ALD
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Statistics are a measure of how productive a player was. Basically you're trying to argue that Jacobs was about as productive as Peterson. That is just blind homerism.
Considering your post starts off with a false statement I can't say I'm surprised your entire argument is faulty.
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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Considering your post starts off with a false statement I can't say I'm surprised your entire argument is faulty.
Stats don't show how productive a player was? How do you measure productivity then?
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Old 08-03-2008, 04:48 PM    (permalink
TitleTown088
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Stats don't show how productive a player was? How do you measure productivity then?
A wise man once told me...
statistics are like bikinis, what the reveal is suggestive, but what the conceal is vital.
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