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Old 09-19-2008, 08:02 PM    (permalink
saintsfan912
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Will Smith should definitely be on that list.
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Top 10 4-3 DE

1. Mario Williams
2. Jared Allen
3. Justin Tuck
4. Aaron Kampman
5. Dwight Freeney
6. Julius Peppers
7. Gaines Adams
8. Trent Cole
9. Jason Taylor
10a. Jonathan Abraham
10b. Patrick Kearney
10c. Will Smith

Top 5 3-4 DE

1. Richard Seymour
2. Haloti Ngata
3. Luis Castillo
4. Ty Warren
5. Aaron Smith
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Old 09-20-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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I know it is blasphemous, but am I the only person who is far more impressed with Justin Tuck than Osi Umenyioura?
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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1. Mario Williams
2. Aaron Kampman
3. Justin Tuck
4. Dwight Freeney
5. Jared Allen
6. Trent Cole
7. Richard Seymour
8. John Abraham
9. Kyle Vanden Bosch
10. Patrick Kerney

Regularly I would have Osi above Mario, and I'd have Peppers somewhere, but Osi is out for the year and Peppers is just playing like **** since last year. I don't really know whats up with him. I'd have Jason Taylor up there too, but he is playing on the wrong side of the line this year and won't play like a top 10 player at LDE.

Honorable mentions to Aaron Schobel, Derrick Burgess & Gaines Adams. I know its early on Adams, but I think hes going to turn out to be one hell of a pass rusher for the Bucs as long as he stays healthy and on the field.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I know it is blasphemous, but am I the only person who is far more impressed with Justin Tuck than Osi Umenyioura?
well, with Osi hurt it is easy to forget how good a pass rusher he is/has been. Tuck is a better run stuffer due in main part because of his freakish size and speed combo, but Osi is also stout against the run. Osi is still a better DE(obviously not currently due to his injury) but once Tuck improves his pass rush at DE on 1st and 2nd passing downs, then Tuck may surpass Osi. As of now, it's ridiculous to have Tuck on top 10 lists and Osi not. Osi has what? the 4th most sacks over the past 3 years? his injury is making people forget him, which is pretty sad.
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Old 09-20-2008, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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I like to see the Schobel love, but he hasn't really been great this year and last year. Against the Seahawks his statline looked pretty impressive, but it was all off of stunts. He was getting absolutely man handled by Walter Jones, and he didn't do a lot on Khalif Barnes against the Jags either. He is a great end with a lot more athletic ability than most people realize. He will definitely benefit down the line from having some more size inside this year since Pat Williams and Sam Adams left. I'm a Bills fan, but and think he is definitely top 15 in the league, but not quite top 10.

As for people complaining about "not being over Trent Cole or John Abraham" get a clue. Trent Cole has been the best lineman on the Eagles for the past 2 years and has really come into his own as a complete end and not just a pass rusher. Abraham might be one of the top true pass rushers in the game right now and has literally been the only consistent pass rusher on the Falcons team since the beginning of last year. Sure he has some injury problems, but that doesn't mean he isn't a fantastic defensive end who wasn't worth the late first round pick and couple mid-rounders that the Falcons gave up for him back in '06. He literally is the Falcons pass rush and only good lineman at this point. Babineaux is coming along nicely though.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I know it is blasphemous, but am I the only person who is far more impressed with Justin Tuck than Osi Umenyioura?

I like Osi a lot, but I think he was overhyped last year. While 13 sacks is 13 sacks, he had that one "right place, right time" game. I'd prefer a much more consistent preformance then 6 sacks in one game, and 7 in the other 15. As a matter of fact, I can see your point, because if we forget that game, and look back to '06... it's 13 sacks in 26 games.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ATLDirtyBirds View Post
I like Osi a lot, but I think he was overhyped last year. While 13 sacks is 13 sacks, he had that one "right place, right time" game. I'd prefer a much more consistent preformance then 6 sacks in one game, and 7 in the other 15. As a matter of fact, I can see your point, because if we forget that game, and look back to '06... it's 13 sacks in 26 games.
I don't always like to use this hypothetical argument. We shouldn't criticize the man for putting up one superhuman performance and then use it against him. The fact it happened remains the same though I certainly would also like to see more consistency out of Osi.
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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I don't always like to use this hypothetical argument. We shouldn't criticize the man for putting up one superhuman performance and then use it against him. The fact it happened remains the same though I certainly would also like to see more consistency out of Osi.
Neither do I, really. That's why I said "13 sacks is still 13 sacks." For a top pass rusher, -1 game leading to 13 sacks in 26 games isn't all that impressive though.
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Old 09-20-2008, 05:22 PM    (permalink
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well, with Osi hurt it is easy to forget how good a pass rusher he is/has been. Tuck is a better run stuffer due in main part because of his freakish size and speed combo, but Osi is also stout against the run. Osi is still a better DE(obviously not currently due to his injury) but once Tuck improves his pass rush at DE on 1st and 2nd passing downs, then Tuck may surpass Osi. As of now, it's ridiculous to have Tuck on top 10 lists and Osi not. Osi has what? the 4th most sacks over the past 3 years? his injury is making people forget him, which is pretty sad.
I'm not forgetting about him, I just never liked him. I never thought he was a top 5 DE and still don't. He's overrated.
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Word on the Justin Tuck love.

He's the truth at DE...actually reminds me of Strahan as a DE...
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:20 PM    (permalink
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Quick List....

1) Aaron Kampman
2) Mario Williams
3) Jared Allen
4) Justin Tuck
5) Osi Umenyiora
6) Kyle Vanden Bosch
7) Patrick Kerney
8) Trent Cole
9) Dwight Freeney
10) Aaron Schobel
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Old 09-20-2008, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm not forgetting about him, I just never liked him. I never thought he was a top 5 DE and still don't. He's overrated.
I'm not the biggest fan of Osi either, but to be fair, coming into this year he had the highest sack per start rate of any defensive end in the NFL. The only defender higher than him was Merriman.
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Old 09-20-2008, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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A defensive end with the amount of sacks Osi has had that also plays the run exceptionally well....

What else do you want from him? (When healthy)
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Old 09-21-2008, 09:49 PM    (permalink
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A defensive end with the amount of sacks Osi has had that also plays the run exceptionally well....

What else do you want from him? (When healthy)
Consistency.
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Old 09-22-2008, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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1. Mario Williams
2. Jared Allen
3. Aaron Kampman
4. Patrick Kerney
5. Jason Taylor
6. Dwight Freeney
7. Julius Peppers
8. Richard Seymour
9. Justin Tuck
10. Luis Castillo
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Old 09-22-2008, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Derrick Burgess?????? Mayb top 10 but probably top 15
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Old 09-22-2008, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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I know it is blasphemous, but am I the only person who is far more impressed with Justin Tuck than Osi Umenyioura?
It's not blasphemous, it's just not pertinent to this thread. Most of Tucks dominance comes when he gets to move inside and rush against slower guards. That's why I'd say Tuck is as good of a Dlineman as Osi, but not as good of a DE. The difference at DE against the run is pretty small while Osi is a helluva lot more effective rushing that off the edge.

PS Kiwi will be better than both in 2-3 seasons if he stays healthy and they don't move him around every season.
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Old 09-22-2008, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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For those saying Osi's inconsistent because he got a s***-ton of sacks in one game last year, I've got to say that Osi was as much hurt statistically as he was helped on the field by having Tuck, Kiwi and Strahan around him. Sure they punished teams when they would double osi, but a lot of times osi would beat his man and be breaking on the quarterback only for Tuck to burst through the middle, or the QB to start running away and run straight into ole gap-tooth. That's why his stats were inconsistent, however his pressure and performance were very consistent.

Osi was our number guy on the line, he went up against the most double teams and chip blocks. I wish I still had the tape of Osi's first full season starting when we went into seattle and had about thirty nine thousand six hundred forty two and a half false starts, That game Osi went one on one against Walter Jones and made Jones his *****, he was a beast against the run racking up 7 tackles and 2 sacks. And from what I'd seen of TC Osi was looking better than ever.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Mario Williams is the best DE in the league right now - period.

He creates mismatches and finishes plays. He is as strong at the point of attack as some of the great DTs in the league and he can absolutely disrupt a rushing attack. It's very rare that a team even runs to his side unless it is a middirection or delayed handoff. He virtually unstoppable when rushing the pass, collecting double and tirple teams regularly. He even drops back into coverage every now and then.

Now, if you want to see Mario Williams sustain this level of play for longer than the past 10-14 games, then that is fine - rate him a little lower. If you want to make sure Mario can stay healthy for a longer period of time, then that is fine too - rate him a little lower.
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Old 09-23-2008, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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It's not blasphemous, it's just not pertinent to this thread. Most of Tucks dominance comes when he gets to move inside and rush against slower guards. That's why I'd say Tuck is as good of a Dlineman as Osi, but not as good of a DE. The difference at DE against the run is pretty small while Osi is a helluva lot more effective rushing that off the edge.

PS Kiwi will be better than both in 2-3 seasons if he stays healthy and they don't move him around every season.
not a chance Kiwi is better than tuck OR Osi. He's not the pass rusher Osi is, and not hte run stuffer Tuck is. excellent rusher and very versatile weapon, but not close to those two in terms of overall talent, size, and even perhaps speed
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 09-23-2008, 11:15 PM    (permalink
giantsfan
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not a chance Kiwi is better than tuck OR Osi. He's not the pass rusher Osi is, and not hte run stuffer Tuck is. excellent rusher and very versatile weapon, but not close to those two in terms of overall talent, size, and even perhaps speed
Kiwi definitely has the potential to top both. Is he better right now? Hell no, but in 2 or 3 years if he just works on DE I wouldn't be surprised if he was better than both. He's quicker and has a better first step than both and has much longer arms which will make shedding tackles easier. Kiwi has monster potential if he plays DE full time and continues the great work ethic and steady progress he's shown his entire career.
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:31 AM    (permalink
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Jonathan Abraham has to be in the top 3 if the list is only based on the first three games. He is finally looking like the player the Falcons paid for. The Jets could really use him right now at Olb to help their pass rush, and to mentor Gholston.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:01 AM    (permalink
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Jonathan Abraham has to be in the top 3 if the list is only based on the first three games. He is finally looking like the player the Falcons paid for. The Jets could really use him right now at Olb to help their pass rush, and to mentor Gholston.
Against detroit and Kansas... I'd hold off for a bit.
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Jonathan Abraham has to be in the top 3 if the list is only based on the first three games. He is finally looking like the player the Falcons paid for. The Jets could really use him right now at Olb to help their pass rush, and to mentor Gholston.

He's always been the player we've paid for when on the field. He brings pressure all the time. This year, he's just really adding up the sacks though. He attributes it to being fresher with DL coach Ray Hamilton in charge.
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