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Old 10-06-2008, 03:39 PM    (permalink
Geo
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I'm not afraid to be effusive in praise of players, Colts players or otherwise, when I think it's deserved, ex. Adrian Peterson is the best runningback in the league.

Super Mario is probably Top 10, but best DE in the league? Not in my book, heck no.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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Put Mario Williams on a better team and he'd get 17 sacks a season easy.


Who does he have on that line? Okeye is having a down year. Its all Mario Williams. Put Williams on the Vikings per say, instead of Allen and he'd get 20 sacks.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Put Mario Williams on a better team and he'd get 17 sacks a season easy.
I want to agree but I can't. It just doesn't work that way. It's like saying that Dwayne Bowe would have 18 TDs if he played for the Colts.

Last edited by Bruce Banner : 10-06-2008 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bruce Banner View Post
I want to agree but I can't. It just doesn't work that way. It's like saying that Dwayne Bowe would have 18 TDs if he played for the Colts.
true. i'll give you that.
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Old 10-06-2008, 03:58 PM    (permalink
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He's come a LONG way from his rookie year. Is he top 5 ? top 10 ? No reason not to think so, atleast statistically as of late.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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true. i'll give you that.
Don't get me wrong, his numbers would go up but the overall wealth would be spread. Everyone benefits a little bit, not one person getting all of it.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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Don't get me wrong, his numbers would go up but the overall wealth would be spread. Everyone benefits a little bit, not one person getting all of it.
But the fact that he can put up those numbers, while being on a crappy team has to mean something. He's double teamed constantly, and still is able to pressure the quarterback. There's not many players in the NFL like him.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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just to go based off of the title of the thread, the person who started this is either out to lunch or homering, as Fat Albert has that title locked down IMO. IF you watch him play and can truely appreciate the DT position, it is pretty plain to see. He has been amazing since the start of last year. I quickly read the initial posters arguement against him, talking about how he was out of no where starting last year, and i simply laugh. Does anyone really care when he had his break-out year? He is straight up the best defensive player over that period. Or to put it in his terms, he has been a bigger monster for a full half season (start of last year) longer than Mario. If we want to compare like that.

No one i'm sure argues that Mario doens't have that kind of potential, and is an elite talent, but to claim it basically as a no arguement with not so persuading 'facts' doesn't really show this posters knowledge, instead showing love for his favorite players coming from a biased opinion. He talks about watching all the Texans games, but maybe he should start to TiVo the Titans also.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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This is a bit funny coming from someone that overrates his favorite players as well. Mario Williams might be overrated on these boards (as far as being the best player in the league or ever, as some might argue) but that means nothing. He's still a top three defensive end, and the way he disrupts timing and protections for the offense is second to none. Not to mention his stellar run defense.
This is extremely funny because the guy who posted it thinks Eli Manning is the second best QB in the NFL.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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It's fair to add that Williams is only getting better as he gains more experience. And he has an incredible world of potential, no doubt.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SNIPER26 View Post
This is extremely funny because the guy who posted it thinks Eli Manning is the second best QB in the NFL.

Exactly
my point.

Not only that, but Dwight Freeney is the best run-stuffing DE in the league as well!
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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It's fair to add that Williams is only getting better as he gains more experience. And he has an incredible world of potential, no doubt.
Ya, but i don't think anyone would doubt that. Everyone already thinks the world of Mario and that he has as much potential on defense as anyone in the league, and would be many people's first selection going forward if you were to start a defense. However, the initial posters claim appears to be, to put bluntly, wrong.
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You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:32 PM    (permalink
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Exactly
my point.

Not only that, but Dwight Freeney is the best run-stuffing DE in the league as well!
If you want to rag me on stuff I say, knock your socks off.

But don't make up ****.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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If you want to rag me on stuff I say, knock your socks off.

But don't make up ****.
C'mon, don't get offended. I was being facetious. ;)

I just don't take your opinion on division rivals too seriously.
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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I have no problem with him being called the best DE in the league... he's as good a pass rusher as anyone, and he's extremely stout holding his ground against the run.

I really don't think he has a legit case as a better player than Albert Haynesworth currently.
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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willams IMO is one of the best defensive players in the league but not the best. As far a DE go i think that Vanden Bosch should be in the conversation for being the best this year. He's playing great agaist the run and he's is a relentless pass rusher and has been getting quite a few sacks last season and this year.

As far as Williams goes i think that he's coming along very well and is playing at very high level. What scares me is that he's still very young and has not played that long and he's only going to continue to improve. I think that last year he proved that he is an elite pass rusher in this league and he's carrying that over from last season to this season. I think he's a Top 5 but not the best reminds me a lot of Peppers.
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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willams IMO is one of the best defensive players in the league but not the best. As far a DE go i think that Vanden Bosch should be in the conversation for being the best this year. He's playing great agaist the run and he's is a relentless pass rusher and has been getting quite a few sacks last season and this year.

As far as Williams goes i think that he's coming along very well and is playing at very high level. What scares me is that he's still very young and has not played that long and he's only going to continue to improve. I think that last year he proved that he is an elite pass rusher in this league and he's carrying that over from last season to this season. I think he's a Top 5 but not the best reminds me a lot of Peppers.
I was going to mention how he reminds me off a young Julius Peppers and it's important he keeps working on his game and not getting content being a freak with no help.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Peppers is always working on his game. If you take out one year which is an aberration he's been brilliant and dominant for a while.

I like Williams a lot as a player and I agree he's great in all facets of the game, but he's not yet a game changer, nor is he yet the best defensive player in the NFL.

The best defensive lineman by far at the moment is Albert Haynesworth
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:28 AM    (permalink
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When was the last time Peppers was dominant? My memory is starting to go in my old age.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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04,05,06 he was brilliant, he had one bad year, last year. That's it.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:18 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetSox17
C'mon, don't get offended. I was being facetious.

I just don't take your opinion on division rivals too seriously.
If anything, our opinions of Williams should be taken more into consideration. Yeah, we may have a slight bias against him since he plays for a rival, but we do see him twice a year - Both Geo and I even have similar views on Super Mario. I'd say our correlating opinions are just as good as a lone San Fran 49er fan, or whoever else, coming in and stating that Mario Williams is a Top 3 DE and still hasn't reached his entire potential. Criticism isn't always a sign of bias.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CutlerChris
The fact that Mario is the only one who can rush the passer makes it harder on him to do so. They can key in on him because no one else will make any noise. It isn't basketball where SOMEONE has to grab a rebound or get buckets, if no one puts pressure on the QB, he isn't getting sacked.
This argument is hypocritical, though I'd delve farther into it than you did making my response not entirely in context. Albert Haynesworth is game-planned for, and is double-teamed at every possible time. Yet, he still makes plays, and frees up others to make plays also.

If Mario Williams were the only player who can formulate a pass-rush, then he would undoubtedly be the focal point of the blocking scheme. Double team him by putting a TE on his side, or keep a RB in to block in the backfield. This would leave the other defenders in neutral or advantageous blocking matchups.

So either Mario Williams is making plays despite being double-teamed and the other Texans defenders are so inept at pass-rushing that they can only muster one sack in 4 games despite being blocked in desireable situations, or Mario Williams is making plays against normal blockers and the rest of the Texans defenders are struggling with the extra protection?

Anyone who has watched the Texans/Colts game highlights on ESPN can see Williams's two sacks: one of which came against normal blocking and the other when all that stood between him and Manning was the RB. The situations when he made plays were in advantageous or neutral conditions.

The guy is not being keyed in on like people think, and if he was, then his teammates would have more than one sack in four games - hell, Houston has a Top 10 pass defense! The other 6 NFL caliber players can't even get a freaking coverage sack when Mario Williams is being double and triple teamed?

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The Titans are 5-0 and I can't think of one reason why, other than him.
Perhaps you don't really know as much as you think? :)

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Originally Posted by CutlerChris
At the beginning of the season, The Colts were supposed to be dominant, the Broncos were supposed to suck, the Giants were supposed to be a fluke, and the Bengals were expected to at least have an offense. Get that "at the beginning of the season" **** out of here.
Are you just listing the other stuff you didn't know now, or what?...
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MetSox17 View Post
But the fact that he can put up those numbers, while being on a crappy team has to mean something. He's double teamed constantly, and still is able to pressure the quarterback. There's not many players in the NFL like him.
You mean like yesterday when he beat a TE and a RB to get sacks? You're right, it takes an elite player to do that.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:47 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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James Harrison and Lamar Woodley are seriously both in the running for DPOY
I have a feeling Both SHOULD go to the pro-bowl... I don't know if both WILL.


Interesting side fact.


John Abraham - 7 Sacks
James Harrison - 6.5 Sacks
LaMarr Woodley - 5.5 Sacks
Joey Porter - 5.5 Sacks

interesting that 3 of the top 4 Passrushers have ties to Pittsburgh :).

that Said, I'll be pissed to high hell if Porter goes to a pro-bowl over Woodley.

But we have a Bye and the Bengals twice yet. So.
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Old 10-07-2008, 02:00 AM    (permalink
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There's no denying that Super Mario is a very good player and is a phreak. The fact that he was chosen #1 before Bush and Young, has proven to be the best player of the three, and still hasn't reached his potential cannot be understated. I'm not looking forward to facing him in upcoming seasons when his experience catches up with his ability.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that he's a bad DE or even an average DE. Common thought is that he's among the best in the league - 4 sacks in four games no matter when they were tallied is great production and ties him for 5th in the league. But there is a difference between being elite and best of the best, and very good.

John Abraham is leading the league in sacks with 7, and the rest of the ATL defense combined has only 2. Would he break the sack record if he played on the Giants or Titans DL's? Perhaps, or maybe he'd have less than he does now by freeing up other DL's to get to the QB quicker?

Elite players make the other players around him better and still produce. The Titans' DEF is not the same without Haynesworth. The Colts' DEF is not the same without Bob Sanders. The Chargers' DEF is not the same without Merrimen. An elite players takes a mediocre DEF and makes them above average or better. So one could argue that because the other defensive lineman around Mario are playing poorly, Mario is not at that level...yet.
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Old 10-07-2008, 03:46 AM    (permalink
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I dont get why it matters when Ware gets his sacks? He's applying pressure all game, he just works his ass off until the very end.

I mean, are we going to knock Merriman?

As a San Diego resident I can tell you a lot of his sacks come when he smells blood at the end of games too. Not too mention a good helping of Chiefs and Raiders.

Just sayin.

And yeah Bantx, Tony has a pick in 8 straight, but I wouldn't even consider trading him for Rivers. Not sure what you're trying to get at.

Bitter this season?
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