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Old 10-08-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
M.O.T.H.
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meh...you just went a little too overboard after beating a really bad team.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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oh and btw ppl, Matt Ryan just signed a 72 million dollar deal.

Matt Ryan, a rookie.

Does it make sense now that Eli gets 100 mill with the current market?




I don't see whats so difficult to comprehend about that.

And make no mistake, me personally, id LOVE it if Eli made less. Are you kidding me? I wish he'd play for free. But I understand the economics of it, which drives the whole thing to begin with. It shouldn't be that hard to understand.
so yeah....anyone want to take a stab at this post for me?

any takers?

id love to hear it.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bruce Banner View Post
Not a huge surprise. All of the Eli jock riders/Giants fans flock to this thread to defend the potential move, everyone else sees it for what it's worth.
Once again you make another post without adding to a football related conversation. Start the personal jabs, neglect the conversation.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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so yeah....anyone want to take a stab at this post for me?

any takers?

id love to hear it.
You beat me to it. I was going to ask how much Jake Long made this year thinking it was even less than that.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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That would still be over paying...Romo and Garrard basically have the same contract, Eli isnt worth $100 million even after Ryan's monster deal. It would probably be more than those two's deals just because, of Ryan but, $100 million at I dont know, 10 a year is just too much.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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And if you think Eli is simply a product of a good enviornment around him...

The Giants have more drops than ANY team in the league since the beginning of 2006. His starting left tackle gave up an NFC high 14 sacks in 2007.

Now I would be wrong if I said the supporting cast is weak. The Giants defense is evolving into top 10 caliber and the depth at RB and WR may be tops in the league. But you know what? I got grilled for talking about that on Sunday, so you guys can't have it both ways? Was every one of you wrong on Sunday, or are you wrong about Eli?

Drops isn't the best way to look at your cast. A WR runs a quick slant, and the QB doesn't see the SS waiting in coverage. He gets it to the WR who gets his hands on it, but the SS lays him out and knocks the ball loose. That goes on the WR as a drop. Who's it really on? Eli has a solid run game, a good offensive line, and a great defense last year. That's why they made the playoffs. It certainly wasn't because of Eli. And you got "grilled" because you overreacted to a Super Bowl winning team beating up on a terrible team. Something that by all means should happen.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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Once again you make another post without adding to a football related conversation. Start the personal jabs, neglect the conversation.
I prefer unbiased football conversation, with a name like that I don't think you're qualified. Plus, what's left to be said?
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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Eh, Bruce. You are just mad you can't nerd up football as much as you can baseball.

Some people try. But do a much worse job than they do with baseball.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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so yeah....anyone want to take a stab at this post for me?

any takers?

id love to hear it.
Well, with regards Matt Ryan's contract, that is the full value listed. Ie. the value if he meets all of the incentives. Now I don't know what/how the incentives are designed, if they are easy to attain or what. So it's not exactly cut and dry that Ryan is making 72 mil over the course of the contract.

(As points of example, Alex Smith and Cedric Benson didn't make close to their reported contract values. For good reason, obviously.)

Whereas in the case with Eli, that won't be near the case. He might have some backloaded years to merit another contract, maybe not. I thought that would be the case with Peyton, but he's now reached those years and honestly he's worth the money given the current market (and the fact that he wasn't making the average of his salary the first few years of the deal).

But that is just talking about the differences. The guaranteed money is probably the same, I don't feel like checking but Ryan's is probably around 33M. Eli's could touch 40M, depending on what Roethlisberger just had in his recent mega-deal himself and the ever-expanding market/cap. I don't have any problem whatsoever when this happens, myself.

Money has been spent a lot worse on extending some quarterbacks the last four years than this impending deal.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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Drops isn't the best way to look at your cast. A WR runs a quick slant, and the QB doesn't see the SS waiting in coverage. He gets it to the WR who gets his hands on it, but the SS lays him out and knocks the ball loose. That goes on the WR as a drop. Who's it really on? Eli has a solid run game, a good offensive line, and a great defense last year. That's why they made the playoffs. It certainly wasn't because of Eli. And you got "grilled" because you overreacted to a Super Bowl winning team beating up on a terrible team. Something that by all means should happen.
So now we are coming up with situational stuff that you think might have happened?

Vikings game last year, remember that one?

All but one INT was because the intended receiver ran the wrong route. The Vikings blitzed the hell out of Eli, they were outnumbering blockers however they were delayed blitzes. The receivers did not run the hot routes, yet Eli gets the crappy end of the stat book.

Now that happens to every QB in the league, thus you overlook it as much as you can because it balances out. So the whole generic scenario you played out happens to every team as well, thus it balances out. See what I'm saying?
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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That would still be over paying...Romo and Garrard basically have the same contract, Eli isnt worth $100 million even after Ryan's monster deal. It would probably be more than those two's deals just because, of Ryan but, $100 million at I dont know, 10 a year is just too much.
Moth, those contracts were signed prior to the Ryan deal. The economics of the league were different.

And as much as I love Romo and Garrard as qbs, i fail to why paying Eli roughly 4 mill/year more than Garrard (2 mill/year more than Romo) is such a big deal considering Garrard was less proven than Eli when he received his own contract.

2 years from now, ppl will view a 14 mill/season salary for a franchise qb to be a steal.

The same way Brees's contract is a steal in today's perspective, even though it was considered very high at the time.

It has little to do with football, and a lot to do with economics.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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I prefer unbiased football conversation, with a name like that I don't think you're qualified. Plus, what's left to be said?
Didn't think so.
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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You're missing the point now.

Peyton? Not right now, maybe in a few years when he is nearing the end. Brady? Hell no.

I'm implying that pointing to statistics when evaluating a QB is foolish. Do you disagree?

Let me check this.


19/35 (54.3) for 216 yards and a INT. 2 rushes for -1 yard and a TD. Those would be Eli's stats against the Redskins. Should we just throw those stats out the window and proclaim that Eli won that game too, because he has the ball in his hands the most often?
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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Eh, Bruce. You are just mad you can't nerd up football as much as you can baseball.
Not angry....
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Drops isn't the best way to look at your cast. A WR runs a quick slant, and the QB doesn't see the SS waiting in coverage. He gets it to the WR who gets his hands on it, but the SS lays him out and knocks the ball loose. That goes on the WR as a drop. Who's it really on? Eli has a solid run game, a good offensive line, and a great defense last year. That's why they made the playoffs. It certainly wasn't because of Eli. And you got "grilled" because you overreacted to a Super Bowl winning team beating up on a terrible team. Something that by all means should happen.
Go check out how that whole ordeal began. I was talking about the depth the Giants have at RB and WR, and got told I was overreacting. Now I am being told the only reason Eli looks good is because of the depth....haha
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Old 10-08-2008, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Well, with regards Matt Ryan's contract, that is the full value listed. Ie. the value if he meets all of the incentives. Now I don't know what/how the incentives are designed, if they are easy to attain or what. So it's not exactly cut and dry that Ryan is making 72 mil over the course of the contract.

(As points of example, Alex Smith and Cedric Benson didn't make close to their reported contract values. For good reason, obviously.)

Whereas in the case with Eli, that won't be near the case. He might have some backloaded years to merit another contract, maybe not. I thought that would be the case with Peyton, but he's now reached those years and honestly he's worth the money given the current market (and the fact that he wasn't making the average of his salary the first few years of the deal).

But that is just talking about the differences. The guaranteed money is probably the same, I don't feel like checking but Ryan's is probably around 33M. Eli's could touch 40M, depending on what Roethlisberger just had in his recent mega-deal himself and the ever-expanding market/cap. I don't have any problem whatsoever when this happens, myself.

Money has been spent a lot worse on extending some quarterbacks the last four years than this impending deal.
Good post. A just another thing to throw out there. The Giants are likely to save cap room in 2009 by signing him to this contract rather than him playing the last year of the rookie contract.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Well, with regards Matt Ryan's contract, that is the full value listed. Ie. the value if he meets all of the incentives. Now I don't know what/how the incentives are designed, if they are easy to attain or what. So it's not exactly cut and dry that Ryan is making 72 mil over the course of the contract.

(As points of example, Alex Smith and Cedric Benson didn't make close to their reported contract values. For good reason, obviously.)

Whereas in the case with Eli, that won't be near the case. He might have some backloaded years to merit another contract, maybe not. I thought that would be the case with Peyton, but he's now reached those years and honestly he's worth the money given the current market (and the fact that he wasn't making the average of his salary the first few years of the deal).

But that is just talking about the differences. The guaranteed money is probably the same, I don't feel like checking but Ryan's is probably around 33M. Eli's could touch 40M, depending on what Roethlisberger just had in his recent mega-deal himself and the ever-expanding market/cap. I don't have any problem whatsoever when this happens, myself.

Money has been spent a lot worse on extending some quarterbacks the last four years than this impending deal.
my thoughts exactly. i mean look, its not like i want the guy to get paid a ton of money, its better for my team if he makes less.

but is it ridiculous for him to get this kind of contract? no way.

Theres at least 20 teams in the NFL that would be willing to pay him more than that to qb their team. If they could afford it, theyd do it. Take that to the bank.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Moth, those contracts were signed prior to the Ryan deal. The economics of the league were different.

And as much as I love Romo and Garrard as qbs, i fail to why paying Eli roughly 4 mill/year more than Garrard (2 mill/year more than Romo) is such a big deal considering Garrard was less proven than Eli when he received his own contract.

2 years from now, ppl will view a 14 mill/season salary for a franchise qb to be a steal.

The same way Brees's contract is a steal in today's perspective, even though it was considered very high at the time.

It has little to do with football, and a lot to do with economics.
I know they were signed prior to the deal...the inflation on a fair value Manning deal after Ryan's deal shouldnt be that much. $100 million deals should be reserved for the elite, a Qb who has sustained a high level of play for years, not just one post season. The value doesnt add up....unless you just want to over pay him because, he won you a Super Bowl. If i was a Giants fan, I would pray he didnt sign such a contract. Granted, the salary cap may be gone in a few anyway but, if it isnt, these types of deals can handicap a franchise...and as much as some may not want to here it...Eli is not yet a sure thing, that you can be throwing that kind of money at. I wouldnt jump the gun.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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Let me check this.


19/35 (54.3) for 216 yards and a INT. 2 rushes for -1 yard and a TD. Those would be Eli's stats against the Redskins. Should we just throw those stats out the window and proclaim that Eli won that game too, because he has the ball in his hands the most often?
Who said Eli won that game?

Anyone?

Go check out Jason Campbell's stats in that game, and tell me he outperformed Manning.
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Eli's opportunity to become a legend.
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Originally Posted by Vikes99ej View Post
These last 50 seconds will define Eli Manning.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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The full contract values can mean so many things depending on how the contract is broken down, it's amazing.

Guaranteed money isn't only the money a player can count on, but as I'm starting to think, also a prevention measure against getting cut in the future. Which coupled with a good base salary, bodes almost doubly well for that player.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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gosh, I'm so upset we resigned our young QB that led us into the playoffs 3 straight years. How terrible.

Bruce, this is in all honesty and I have thought this for a while: Do you ever bring a legit argument or point to a thread or do you just bash everyone else?

and BBD, don't waste your breath, it's only metsox.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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So now we are coming up with situational stuff that you think might have happened?

Vikings game last year, remember that one?

All but one INT was because the intended receiver ran the wrong route. The Vikings blitzed the hell out of Eli, they were outnumbering blockers however they were delayed blitzes. The receivers did not run the hot routes, yet Eli gets the crappy end of the stat book.

Now that happens to every QB in the league, thus you overlook it as much as you can because it balances out. So the whole generic scenario you played out happens to every team as well, thus it balances out. See what I'm saying?

Ok, we'll forget any kind of scenario. Fair enough? Eli threw the 7th most passes in all of football last year. When you throw more passes, your team is going to get more drops. Is it unsettling to be #1 in drops? Yes. Is it that impossible when you throw the 7th most passes? Nope. Fact is, Eli had an elite target to throw to, which is more then some others can say. (I'll spare you Shockey). Plax caught 23.5% of Eli's completions. Which is around where you'd expect it to be. Eli had his main target, everyone else and the 7th most attempts. When you have that, you're going to be up there in drops.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how anyone could term a big deal for Eli ridiculous. There isn't another quarterback in the league as merited for such an investment as him, Rivers is a clear-cut second and Jay Cutler is a very distant third (he needs to keep playing on his rookie contract for two more years at least).

Eli has been injured less than Roethlisberger and Rivers, and just helped lead his team to a Super Bowl championship. The confidence of which has spurned his development further as a franchise quarterback.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by M.O.T.H. View Post
meh...you just went a little too overboard after beating a really bad team.
I highly doubt this is stemming from after the Seahawks game. I think it's been brewing for some time now, and even more so with Webster and Jacobs playing well thus far. With them being FA's after this year, the Giants wanted to ensure they locked up Eli long term, and knew how much they could spend on Webster and Jacobs(and even Ward)
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 10-08-2008, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Meh, Im done with it. I don't want to jinx Eli. This is the first time Ive said anything about him on here for awhile.

We'll just have to wait and see.
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