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Old 01-25-2009, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Yes I am comparing Jordan Kent to Michael Crabtree, therefore I am not kidding you.

Kent played WR for two years at Oregon. That was the first time he played football (as far as I know), so if he's not a polished product I hope you can understand why, giving as how this would be his fourth year of football.

Crabtree is going to be questioned a lot more as the draft approaches because Graham Harrel is showing he doesn't have anything even remotely close to an NFL arm. Most of the passes that Crabtree catches are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. He doesn't have top line speed, so many of those 20 yard receptions he had where he caught the ball at or near the line of scrimmage and ran for almost all 20 aren't going to happen. Teams are going to notice that he doesn't have great elusiveness and he can be brought down easily at times.

If your a WR that relies on YAC, you need to have something to set you apart. Without great elusiveness or topline speed do you actually see Crabtree doing anywhere near the damage he did in college? I don't.

He was in a system that bolstered his stats. If he had gone to any school not named Texas Tech, he would not have won the Biletnikof. In fact, we would not be having this discussion about how great Crabtree is. We probably wouldn't even know his name.

The place that I think Crabtree is best suited in the NFL is at slot receiver. That is probably where he is going to end up after a team tries to make him their #1. He could probably be one of the greatest slot receivers ever, but do you take a slot receiver at 4?
I guess we can just ignore what all the experts are saying about him, since you know more than the guys who actually get paid to do this for a living, right?

Here's a quote I found of a scouting report on Fitzgerald before he came out: "Larry Fitzgerald does not have blazing speed, but scouts love his size, quickness, strength, timing, leaping ability, precise route-running and strong, sure hands."

That kinda sounds like a WR named Michael Crabtree in this year's draft.

Crabtree has amazing hands, especially considering he has played WR for 2 WHOLE YEARS! I'll use your Kent argument for Crabtree: Imagine if Crabtree had played WR in high school? How much better would he be then? Imagine when he gets more experience playing the position...

Also, Crabtree is a fantastic athlete and just because in his highlights you dont see him grab jump balls, doesnt mean he can't. I assure you, he can, he just doesn't need to. He also goes and gets everything with his hands, he has the best hands in the nation. He has everything you need in a #1 WR and he will only get better when he gets more experience.

Your comparison to Crabtree is Mike Williams eh? Right after you say that a main concern about him is that he doesn't show that he can get the jump ball. There is so much wrong with that, I don't even know where to start. First of all, that is all Mike Williams could do is grab a jump ball, and then you say he is like Crabtree when you just said Crabtree hasn't shown he can get the jump ball. That right there tells me you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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you saying that Crabtree runs precise routes? Have you ever played in that spread? Its all bubble screens, quick slants and speed cuts. Speed Cuts =/= crisp routes. I am saying Crabtree can't run them, but I haven't seen it. And Larry Fitzgerald was so dope. People who don't remember are the ones comparing the two. He was never a YAC guy, he was a throw it up and Larry will get it, or Larry will run a route across the middle and catch it anyway. Case in point:

Just watch the first part. He is not Michael Crabtree. Michael Crabtree can't do what Larry can do. Larry tore it up.

EDIT: And for comparison, Crabtree:

He is a YAC guy. He doesn't show Burst to go get the ball, but he is good at breaking tackles on a team that was death penalized a few decades a go (SMU). Oh, and he doesn't outrun any good competition, and gets caught by a linebacker near the end. NFL DBs run sub 4.4 and will most likely catch him.
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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NFL DBs will most likely run faster than him, that doesnt mean they will tackle him. Anquan Boldin is another very good comparison (whom I think is a better comparison to Crabtree).

And jballa: you obviously know nothing about football if you are gonna knock him for getting caught by a LB. The play where that happens, he broke like 3 tackles and had his momentum stopped. If he had been running at full speed no way he gets caught by a LB. I read your post and I have yet to find a legit argument against Crabtree. Nice try though.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:17 AM    (permalink
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NFL DBs will most likely run faster than him, that doesnt mean they will tackle him. Anquan Boldin is another very good comparison (whom I think is a better comparison to Crabtree).

And jballa: you obviously know nothing about football if you are gonna knock him for getting caught by a LB. The play where that happens, he broke like 3 tackles and had his momentum stopped. If he had been running at full speed no way he gets caught by a LB. I read your post and I have yet to find a legit argument against Crabtree. Nice try though.
Besides the majority of it being screens? I got a little carried away on th LB part, but my legit argument is with the 4th pick, do you want a guy who you have never seen run a real go route (Fade stops don't count) and got the majority of his yards and big plays on screen plays?

Boldin is a better comparison but he is bigger and more physical IM(H)O.
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Old 01-26-2009, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Besides the majority of it being screens? I got a little carried away on th LB part, but my legit argument is with the 4th pick, do you want a guy who you have never seen run a real go route (Fade stops don't count) and got the majority of his yards and big plays on screen plays?

Boldin is a better comparison but he is bigger and more physical IM(H)O.
How do you know that Boldin is more physical? No one ever presses Crabtree so that must tell you that they are scared of pressing him. And who cares that he hasnt ran a real go route. He is a WR, I would be more concerned if that was all he ran was go routes.

And Boldin is actually smaller than Crabtree. They are both listed as 215 but Boldin is 6'1, while Crabtree is 6'3.

Want to try again?
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Old 01-26-2009, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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NFL DBs will most likely run faster than him, that doesnt mean they will tackle him. Anquan Boldin is another very good comparison (whom I think is a better comparison to Crabtree).

And jballa: you obviously know nothing about football if you are gonna knock him for getting caught by a LB. The play where that happens, he broke like 3 tackles and had his momentum stopped. If he had been running at full speed no way he gets caught by a LB. I read your post and I have yet to find a legit argument against Crabtree. Nice try though.
First of all, how is not knowing if the guy can run routes not a legitamate argument against taking him at 4? Generally when teams aren't sure if a player can run routes they take him later on in the draft like 2nd round at earliest. Route running can be taught true, but if your picking in the top 5, your expecting that guy to come in a play and produce right away. If he doesn't know how to run anything other than a bubble screen or slant route, then that is a major issue.

And your wrong about the linebacker issue. Linebackers in the NFL will catch Crabtree. He doesn't have the elite speed to break as many tackles as he did in college. With his skill set right now all he is a slot receiver. So those big gains where he ran upfield for 10-20 yards will be stopped near the line of scrimmage for 1-5.

When have you ever seen Crabtree run anything other than a screen, slant, or a slip route?

And in the NFL, without elite speed, he won't be open anywhere near as much as he is in college. He has to be able to go up and get the ball. Boldin does it. Anybody that he has been compared to was willing to go up and get the ball. We haven't seen Crabtree have to do that in college. We won't even know if he is capable of doing it until he gets to the NFL.

Crabtree = most overrated WR ever.

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How do you know that Boldin is more physical? No one ever presses Crabtree so that must tell you that they are scared of pressing him. And who cares that he hasnt ran a real go route. He is a WR, I would be more concerned if that was all he ran was go routes.

And Boldin is actually smaller than Crabtree. They are both listed as 215 but Boldin is 6'1, while Crabtree is 6'3.

Want to try again?
To be honest we don't know if Crabtree is going to be as physical as Boldin. We assume Boldin is more physical because that is his game. He goes and makes catches and beats up the corners. Crabtree only beats up corners when he has time to get a 5 yard run at them.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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First of all, how is not knowing if the guy can run routes not a legitamate argument against taking him at 4? Generally when teams aren't sure if a player can run routes they take him later on in the draft like 2nd round at earliest. Route running can be taught true, but if your picking in the top 5, your expecting that guy to come in a play and produce right away. If he doesn't know how to run anything other than a bubble screen or slant route, then that is a major issue.

And your wrong about the linebacker issue. Linebackers in the NFL will catch Crabtree. He doesn't have the elite speed to break as many tackles as he did in college. With his skill set right now all he is a slot receiver. So those big gains where he ran upfield for 10-20 yards will be stopped near the line of scrimmage for 1-5.

When have you ever seen Crabtree run anything other than a screen, slant, or a slip route?

And in the NFL, without elite speed, he won't be open anywhere near as much as he is in college. He has to be able to go up and get the ball. Boldin does it. Anybody that he has been compared to was willing to go up and get the ball. We haven't seen Crabtree have to do that in college. We won't even know if he is capable of doing it until he gets to the NFL.

Crabtree = most overrated WR ever.



To be honest we don't know if Crabtree is going to be as physical as Boldin. We assume Boldin is more physical because that is his game. He goes and makes catches and beats up the corners. Crabtree only beats up corners when he has time to get a 5 yard run at them.
That is not even a concern with Crabtree, that he cannot run certain routes. He has never had a problem running any types of routes, not slants, posts, screens. Just because you don't see him running outs and curls in his HIGHLIGHT video, doesnt mean he does not run them. You are watching highlight videos, so obviously they arent going to show the 15 yard out route that he tiptoed the sideline for a 1st down. Crabtree's forte is his YAC ability and in Seattle's offense, and passes being thrown from Hass, that is huge. And since when does a WR need to have elite speed to be a good YAC guy? NEVER.

You are obviously nitpicking when you are questioning his toughness. He is 6'3, 215 and has never shown any indication of being even somewhat soft. Teams don't press him because they are not stupid.

And a slot WR? Are you stupid? How many 6'3 215 WRs with hands like vice grips do you see that arent stars in the NFL?? Slot WR, give me a break guy.
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Old 01-26-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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And what makes you think he wont be able to get a jump ball? With his size. leaping ability, and the fact that he catches EVERYTHING with his hands, he will be able to do that among the best in the league. I have never seen him drop a pass and he never lets the ball into his body, he only catches with his hands. He goes and gets the ball rather than let it come to him.

He is the choice at #4 if he is there, and it is very likely he will be.
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:36 PM    (permalink
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You don't need top line speed to get YAC, but you do need to have an ability to shake tacklers. Crabtree consistently outruns inferior defensive players and relies on his body to run over defenders. That's not really being very elusive.

And until I have seen proof that he can go up and get the ball, I am going to reserve judgement on Crabtree. First of all, because just cuz a guy can jump over 40 inches standing doesn't mean he can outjump corners. I have yet to see proof of Crabtree's vertical.

Also, pointing at his size. 6'3, 215. That doesn't make him successful. If that was the case then you could plug in anybody that size in at WR and expect them to be successful. He has good size. So what. It doesn't mean he is going to be a successful WR at the next level. He probably will be. I don't think he will be worth the number 4 overall pick. He's not even the most athletic WR in this draft. Percy Harvin would go ahead of Crabtree if it wasn't for his durability issues. Percy Harvin is someone who has legitamate YAC ability, even in the NFL. He is a lot faster and is able to shake guys easily.

EDIT: Just saw Todd McShay's first mock of the year. He has us taking B.J. Raji. Not that bad of a pick IMO.
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Everyone knows where I stand with this debate.

The Larry Fitzgerald comparison is out there because they have each displayed the best set of hands we've seen in college in this generation. Hands is the #1 thing I look for in a WR. Route-running (something that can be tweaked- and his isn't even poor anyway) is #2. Everything else on top of that is gravy.

About the press coverage thing- when he was approached at the LOS in the Texas game he abused the CB (Palmer I think) TWICE, one with the inside move on a slant, and the other on the quick fade to the corner. They may not have been crisp, downfield developing routes, but the quickness he displayed on those two plays (and many other plays, even ones where he has the ball) has me and probably a lot of people in the NFL believing not only can he improve his route-running, but he can become very good at it. I will bring it up again, Roddy White could not run a route for his life in his rookie season and now he's a technician. Hines Ward and Randle El LITERALLY never ran a route during college and they are both pretty good at it now.
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Old 01-26-2009, 07:04 PM    (permalink
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You don't need top line speed to get YAC, but you do need to have an ability to shake tacklers. Crabtree consistently outruns inferior defensive players and relies on his body to run over defenders. That's not really being very elusive.

First of all, because just cuz a guy can jump over 40 inches standing doesn't mean he can outjump corners.

Also, pointing at his size. 6'3, 215. That doesn't make him successful. If that was the case then you could plug in anybody that size in at WR and expect them to be successful. He has good size. So what. It doesn't mean he is going to be a successful WR at the next level. He probably will be. I don't think he will be worth the number 4 overall pick. He's not even the most athletic WR in this draft. Percy Harvin would go ahead of Crabtree if it wasn't for his durability issues. Percy Harvin is someone who has legitamate YAC ability, even in the NFL. He is a lot faster and is able to shake guys easily.

EDIT: Just saw Todd McShay's first mock of the year. He has us taking B.J. Raji. Not that bad of a pick IMO.
I am at a loss of words how someone can be so clueless. Responding to the bolded part: Do you want to read again what you just said? You stated just because someone can jump over 40 inches doesnt mean they can outjump corners. How many corners do you know that have 40 inch verticals? There are MAYBE a couple corners in the league that can get up as high as Crabtree and no corner in the league even has close to as good of hands as he does.

And Crabtree displays very good elusiveness for a big WR, I dont even know what you are talking about there.

Maybe you didnt get the fact that I wasnt just talking about size. Not only does he has the size of a #1 WR, but he has the best hands in the country. He is a good route runner, and does exactlyt what he is asked to do. He is a playmaker and a leader. And there is NO WAY Harvin would go over Crabtree even if he had no injuries in his collegiate career. Crabtree would still be the #1 wideout on the board.

I also like how you only value McShay's opinion out of all the experts out there, just because he is the one guy that doesnt have us taking Crabtree. First of all, Raji would be a horrible pick. DTs have a bigger bust rate than ANY position in the league. And you want to take one at #4? He is not even in the same league as Glenn Dorsey was last year. Plus we already have Mebane and Bryant to take care of NT. If anything we need an UT not another nose. An informed fan would know this.
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Old 01-26-2009, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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I got to say, some very off comments have been made in reguard to Crabtree during this discussion.

The Mike Williams comparison was horrible, and contridicted a large point of the anti-Crabtree poster's arguement.
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Old 01-26-2009, 07:33 PM    (permalink
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How many people listed at 6-3 215 are actually 6-3 215 come the combine? I really don't know the answer, but I was listed at 6'2 170 but in all actuality I am closer to 6'0 160. Just throwing that out there.

Crabtree does not have a 40" inch vert, and we haven't really seen his leaping ability anywhere, compared to other WRs in this class. One thought on that is was it Harrell's arm or Crabtree's ablility that was why they were running fade-stops? I watched a lot of TTech and never said "WOW, great hops" like you are implying. Crabtree's playing style just doesn't translate well to being a professional wide reciever, as he is a tweener. He isn't a big jump over you guy and he isn't a quick run past you guy. He is just Michael Crabtree. I like him as a college player, but I don't see him coming in and making the impact someone you draft at four should. I don't like him as the top WR in the class, but he is definitely top two or three. I like Harvin more as a prospect and player in space, and he can help in the return game. Crabtree can't help on special teams. Thats not arguable. I need to see this guys actual size and strength numbers from the combine or his pro-day before I tout him as our pick.

And no way we pick Raji. He didn't play as well as Ellis did in the senior bowl last year.
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Old 01-26-2009, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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I got to say, some very off comments have been made in reguard to Crabtree during this discussion.

The Mike Williams comparison was horrible, and contridicted a large point of the anti-Crabtree poster's arguement.
Yep, I called him out on it too.
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Old 01-26-2009, 08:19 PM    (permalink
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I got to say, some very off comments have been made in reguard to Crabtree during this discussion.

The Mike Williams comparison was horrible, and contridicted a large point of the anti-Crabtree poster's arguement.
When Mike Williams came out he had the same hype as Crabtree about being the next best WR. The comparison to Williams was ultimately a bit of a jab at Crabtree saying that I think he won't be anywhere near as good as advertised.

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I am at a loss of words how someone can be so clueless. Responding to the bolded part: Do you want to read again what you just said? You stated just because someone can jump over 40 inches doesnt mean they can outjump corners. How many corners do you know that have 40 inch verticals? There are MAYBE a couple corners in the league that can get up as high as Crabtree and no corner in the league even has close to as good of hands as he does.

And Crabtree displays very good elusiveness for a big WR, I dont even know what you are talking about there.

Maybe you didnt get the fact that I wasnt just talking about size. Not only does he has the size of a #1 WR, but he has the best hands in the country. He is a good route runner, and does exactlyt what he is asked to do. He is a playmaker and a leader. And there is NO WAY Harvin would go over Crabtree even if he had no injuries in his collegiate career. Crabtree would still be the #1 wideout on the board.

I also like how you only value McShay's opinion out of all the experts out there, just because he is the one guy that doesnt have us taking Crabtree. First of all, Raji would be a horrible pick. DTs have a bigger bust rate than ANY position in the league. And you want to take one at #4? He is not even in the same league as Glenn Dorsey was last year. Plus we already have Mebane and Bryant to take care of NT. If anything we need an UT not another nose. An informed fan would know this.
First of all, the bold part. That statement I made was about the combine when players aren't expected to jump when they are running full speed. Jumping for measurement and jumping for in a game running full speed and having to alter your body in the air are two completely different things. The point being, someone can have a ridiculous vertical but not be able to catch some jump balls.

And yes, if Harvin didn't have durability issues he would be the consensus number 1 WR on every board. The only reason you won't see the faster and more talented Harvin go early is because of his durability issues. He is a game changer, who even if he doesn't make an impact at WR will automatically improve a team's special teams. If he doesn't work out a team will still have a valuable return man. If Crabtree doesn't work out, the team has nothing.

I like how you throw out Bryant who didn't play a meaningful down last season, so we really don't know what he is. Is Raji my first choice, hell no. But in the end, McShay shows a more informed opinion of the Seahawks needs, which is defensive.

I think that Seahawks are going to be back next year, and I don't think that Crabtree will help them. Longterm, maybe, but I seriously doubt he lives up to the lofty expectations everyone is throwing at him.

In the end, it's not my decision or your decision. It's only Ruskell and Mora's. Ask yourself honestly, do you really think that two defensive minded people like Ruskell and Mora are actually going to take a WR? Heck, I think their more likely to take Aaron Curry. He has a lower chance of busting than almost anybody in this draft, plus following the trend of rookie LB's, he would most likely make an instant impact on the team. The only reason that I don't ever argue for Curry is because that would mean that Leroy Hill was gone, which would be a horrible thing.

Crabtree is overrated. If he had gone to any school other than Texas Tech, chances are we don't even know his name. He doesn't win the Biletnikof (anybody know the right spelling?) Award even once.

I'm gonna tell you something. A couple of months ago, I was ecstatic about Crabtree. Then I realized, that he, much like Rashard Mendenhall last year, was a player that I can't see the Seahawks ever drafting. Crabtree has everything that Ruskell looks for when he drafts a player (multiple years of production, he played against top level competition, no character issues), but he truly doesn't set himself apart in my eyes.

Here are a list of reasons why I don't like Crabtree and thinks he's really overrated:
1) The Big 12's defenses weren't very good this year. When the majority of the teams in your conference are putting up 30 points a game against whoever they play, that is not a good defensive league.
2) Texas Tech's offense is based around short routes. We don't know if Crabtree can actually make a catch over the middle or 10 yards down the field because he never did it in college. He came out of a system that throws the ball within 5 yards of the line of the scrimmage, it seems like all the time. Can he catch anything when he is actually covered?
3) Graham Harrell has nothing for an arm. He probably shouldn't even be drafted. It truly brings Crabtree into question.
4) He's a YAC guy. Honestly. Do you think that Crabtree will be able to shake quality tacklers in the NFL like he did in college. He rarely faced anyone as fast as he is. In the NFL almost everyone on the defensive side (excluding linemen) is going to be faster than him. He relies entirely too much on his speed in college.

Crabtree's skill set is probably honestly best suited for the slot receiver role. He's got great hands, I'm not going to argue that. He finds the soft spot in the zone. He isn't going to outrun the defense. He runs good short routes. How is that not the perfect fit in the slot? The slot is probably where he has to play if you want him to be worth the #4 overall pick and want to get something out of him. Otherwise, I seriously doubt he sees the field that much. But oh...we have a guy called Bobby Engram there...

I'm done arguing about Crabtree for today. Maybe I'll be back to argue with you tomorrow.
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Old 01-26-2009, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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In the end, it's not my decision or your decision. It's only Ruskell and Mora's. Ask yourself honestly, do you really think that two defensive minded people like Ruskell and Mora are actually going to take a WR? Heck, I think their more likely to take Aaron Curry. He has a lower chance of busting than almost anybody in this draft, plus following the trend of rookie LB's, he would most likely make an instant impact on the team. The only reason that I don't ever argue for Curry is because that would mean that Leroy Hill was gone, which would be a horrible thing.

Crabtree is overrated. If he had gone to any school other than Texas Tech, chances are we don't even know his name. He doesn't win the Biletnikof (anybody know the right spelling?) Award even once.

I'm gonna tell you something. A couple of months ago, I was ecstatic about Crabtree. Then I realized, that he, much like Rashard Mendenhall last year, was a player that I can't see the Seahawks ever drafting. Crabtree has everything that Ruskell looks for when he drafts a player (multiple years of production, he played against top level competition, no character issues), but he truly doesn't set himself apart in my eyes.

Here are a list of reasons why I don't like Crabtree and thinks he's really overrated:
1) The Big 12's defenses weren't very good this year. When the majority of the teams in your conference are putting up 30 points a game against whoever they play, that is not a good defensive league.
2) Texas Tech's offense is based around short routes. We don't know if Crabtree can actually make a catch over the middle or 10 yards down the field because he never did it in college. He came out of a system that throws the ball within 5 yards of the line of the scrimmage, it seems like all the time. Can he catch anything when he is actually covered?
3) Graham Harrell has nothing for an arm. He probably shouldn't even be drafted. It truly brings Crabtree into question.
4) He's a YAC guy. Honestly. Do you think that Crabtree will be able to shake quality tacklers in the NFL like he did in college. He rarely faced anyone as fast as he is. In the NFL almost everyone on the defensive side (excluding linemen) is going to be faster than him. He relies entirely too much on his speed in college.

Crabtree's skill set is probably honestly best suited for the slot receiver role. He's got great hands, I'm not going to argue that. He finds the soft spot in the zone. He isn't going to outrun the defense. He runs good short routes. How is that not the perfect fit in the slot? The slot is probably where he has to play if you want him to be worth the #4 overall pick and want to get something out of him. Otherwise, I seriously doubt he sees the field that much. But oh...we have a guy called Bobby Engram there...
How about a sig bet on who you think Seattle will draft. You say they are more likely to take Curry. I'll take Crabtree, you take Curry and we will see whos right. Its really no gamble for me, since Curry is probably the last player they would take at 4.

You think Crabtree is perfect for the slot... hmm I bet if we got Boldin, you would think he deserves to only play the slot too. Everything you just said about Crabtree is true of Boldin. And Crabtree is even bigger than Boldin. He also has only played WR for 2 years. His potential is amazing. His floor is not low at all.

Can he catch anything when he is actually covered? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaN_ce47MOY He always goes and gets the ball if it isnt right to him.

You are really nitpicking when it comes to trying to find his weaknesses. You dont know if he can make a catch over the middle? 10 yards down the field? You act like he only caught screens. He didnt and you know that. You are just struggling at this point.
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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This should answer some questions about whether or not he can jump up and get the ball... LOL I can't believe we even have to do this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJrSu...eature=related

Mike Williams was NEVER anywhere even close to close to anywhere near being close to at all close to as quick as Crabtree. I'll give you that he doesn't have top-notch speed, but he is EXTREMELY quick for his size.

Big 12 competition is really not a good argument against a WR. A WR vs a DB is not something that can be valued- like "oh he only made that amazing catch because it was against Rice". It's still a great catch against an opponent in good position. Granted on the ones where he's wide open obviously he won't get that separation in the pro's but no one is expecting that at all. Fitzgerald beasted on weak Big East DBs. Greg Jennings toasted 4.6 MAC guys.

No need to spell out the #s for you but he abused all defenses, not just the Big 12 ones.

Check out game by game: http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/playerDetai...g=700&player=5

You don't go for 12 catches for 154 yards against Oklahoma in your second career collegiate game unless you are a special player. And you don't follow that up with 9 catches for 195 yards at Texas unless you are a VERY special player.

And the Big 12 defenses might be statistically considered weak, but I think that has to do a lot more with how amazing the Big 12 offenses are. The fact is Tree lit up some pretty damn good football players on those Texas defenses.
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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That video you posted showed zero actual jumpballs where he left his feet very high. He has superb hands, but I don't know about this. They always talk about the system QBs. Maybe he is a system WR? I have a lot more questions than answers at this point. Stat wise he was awesome, but so was Ashlie Lelie, and he ran really fast too. Where is he now?
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Old 01-26-2009, 09:58 PM    (permalink
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That video you posted showed zero actual jumpballs where he left his feet very high. He has superb hands, but I don't know about this. They always talk about the system QBs. Maybe he is a system WR? I have a lot more questions than answers at this point. Stat wise he was awesome, but so was Ashlie Lelie, and he ran really fast too. Where is he now?
I could have sworn there were two where he jumped up over the defender and came down with the ball.

There seriously weren't any where he left his feet and made a tall grab?

Or are you saying "very high" meaning he didn't jump up high enough to impress you?

I never saw Ashley Lelie in college so I can't comment on him as the prospect but from what I saw in the pro's there really isn't much of a comparison. Bottom line is Crabtree has WORLD CLASS HANDS. Lelie never did. And Lelie wasn't the hardest worker or at all dedicated to his craft. Even with all that he had his moments in the league.

Why is it that most are talking about Fitzgerald and Boldin and you guys are comparing him to Lelie and Jordan Kent? LOL. Think about that for a second. Someone has got to be way off because those pairs are on two different stratospheres!
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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That video you posted showed zero actual jumpballs where he left his feet very high. He has superb hands, but I don't know about this. They always talk about the system QBs. Maybe he is a system WR? I have a lot more questions than answers at this point. Stat wise he was awesome, but so was Ashlie Lelie, and he ran really fast too. Where is he now?
Just re-watched and the first grab is over a defender and the one at the 25 second mark is in the front corner of the endzone over a defender. I don't understand. What more are you looking for? lol.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:04 PM    (permalink
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2) Texas Tech's offense is based around short routes. We don't know if Crabtree can actually make a catch over the middle or 10 yards down the field because he never did it in college. He came out of a system that throws the ball within 5 yards of the line of the scrimmage, it seems like all the time. Can he catch anything when he is actually covered?
Watch the video...

And look for more. When you make so many plays youtube actually can be a good way to check out a prospect...

He ran over the middle, he ran deep posts, he ran comebacks, slants, pretty much everything.

You can skip over the bubble screens he where he breaks tackles and accelerates past hopeless defenders because that doesn't prove anything...

...even though the quick screen is a commonly used play in the NFL also.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Honestly the people arguing against Crabtree (jballa and summond) are just grasping at straws at this point.

I only compared him to Fitz because his scouting report sounded eerily similar to Crabtree's. I really think Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall are better comparisions to him, and are examples of the type of impact he should have in the NFL. Crabtree will be a guy who will grap 100+ balls in some seasons. He is just that type of player.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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I'ma laugh when certain Seattle fans get what they want by not drafting Crabtree, and they they see him go on to see him flourish elsewhere.

I'm not saying Jenkins would not be a fine pick. But Crabtree is being overanalyzed right here.
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Old 01-26-2009, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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I am almost out of straws too.
I just don't think he is a Larry Fitzgerald type player. He fits a different genre. maybe he proves me wrong. Maybe he proves me right.
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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First of all, Curry is probably the stupidest pick the Seahawks could make. I was simply throwing him out there as a player that would make an instant impact and has a low chance of busting. Curry would cost more to sign than it would cost the Seahawks to resign Leroy Hill. And the only way they would even consider drafting Curry is if Leroy Hill was gone.

I personally prefer Malcolm Jenkins and Jason Smith to Crabtree. Both fill positions of need and can make impacts sooner than a WR. The learning curve for CB's vs. WR's is in favor of CB's. Smith wouldn't be expected to start at LT, he would be groomed by Jones and might be able to kick inside to G for a year or two. Oher or Monroe are both probably smarter picks if they need to kick them inside while learning from Jones.

The arguments for Crabtree are generally based off of him making an instant impact. Rookie WR's generally don't make that big of an impact.

There is a direct correlation between route running and success in the NFL. That is why almost every person who plays fantasy football knows about the "third year rule." Where WR's turly begin to make a fantasy impact is in their third year. That is because it takes about 3 years to learn how to run NFL routes. Crabtree is even farther behind than most WR's (on the route running learning curve) because he runs little else than slants and screens. If you want an immediate impact at WR, you have to look for someone who is known for their route running in college.

A quick screen is used in the NFL maybe 1-5 times per game. It also isn't always ran to a WR.

I think if you take a WR top 5 he had better be a Larry Fitzgerald/Andre Johnson tpye of player. I don't see Crabtree as being able to do that. His skill set is different. He may end up being a great WR, but I just don't think he is an elite WR like those two.

Since you guys are hell bent on the Seahawks taking Crabtree and seem to think that Ruskell has no choice but to take him, I have a question for you.

Did you even begin to suspect the Seahawks would take Lawrence Jackson in the first last year?

I know I didn't. I gave them Jonathan Stewart and Kentwan Balmer in my mocks last year. One early (very early) mock had them taking Martellus Bennett. Never once did I even see a draft, any draft, giving the Seahawks Jackson. The point being, we have no idea where Ruskell is going to go with his picks. I still think the Seahawks ultimately trade down if possible. If not they take the best value on the board, which is either Malcolm Jenkins or one of the OT's.

So gpngc, you may say that Ruskell's draft pattern means nothing, but it does. It is the only common thing between each of his drafts. If you don't consider that, then there truly is no point in trying to reason or argue with you.

Also, jballa and I were talking about this earlier in the year. Ruskell has a tendency to draft safely on offense, especially early on. That means that he generally stays away from skill position players and QB's, and especially RB's, in the early rounds. Linemen, I believe, have the longest average careers in the NFL. They are a safer pick. That is why you will almost always see Ruskell draft an offensive lineman or defensive player in the first. If I had to say right now who they take, definately Malcolm Jenkins or Jason Smith.
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