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Old 10-16-2008, 06:38 PM    (permalink
steelersfan43
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Well. It's not that the boss is making you pay him. It's that you're taking pens home from the company, and every time they catch you taking a pen, even if they catch you in the act or on the tape, they'll fine you 10 bucks.

There's not NO REASON. jesus. I mean, there's some illogic to it, yes, i'll grant everyone that, but, sometimes you're going to get caught. And yes you'll have to pay if you do something. And sometimes you'll have to pay if you didn't do something. Why? If 90% of the people who get fined have a reason to, and 10% don't, do we stop fining people all together?

Now that makes no sense. Don't ever tell me i don't think **** through before posting. That's never happened before. Check my record.
How is a hard hit ( not h-h or anything like that) like taking a pen from a company? If your going to say because it slightly shortins that guys career therby making the nfl less money, not really because fans like seeing big hits and if they happen more people will tune in or look at them on nfl.com

Also, you act as if the fining is an inaccurate process, when it doesnt have to be, you have the tapes sit down and examin them and make a logical desicion. If a hit is not helmet to helmet or after the play or a blindside hit there is no reason to fine the players.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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so when a "kevin Everett" incident happens every 2nd game or Roy Williams goes around and breaks necks with horse collars, what do you think how many guys are going to play in 1-2 years?
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
so when a "kevin Everett" incident happens every 2nd game or Roy Williams goes around and breaks necks with horse collars, what do you think how many guys are going to play in 1-2 years?
First off, kevin everett did that to himself by lowering his head into the guy which is illegal. Second, hes not talking about Cheap hits like helmet to helmet, blindsides, or horsecollers, hes talking about clean hits that the players get fined for because they hammered the guy.

Also, the money from the fines shouldnt go to the nfl because they could just fine players to make money, they should give all the fine money and crap to a charity or something.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:44 PM    (permalink
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so when a "kevin Everett" incident happens every 2nd game or Roy Williams goes around and breaks necks with horse collars, what do you think how many guys are going to play in 1-2 years?
what are you trying to say here?

Everett broke his neck on a play that was not dirty. Roy William's horse collars have been banned as they have broken people's legs.

Regardless of whether or not they banned that horse collar tackle or not players will still play... you know the risk of football when you choose to play
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Also, the money from the fines shouldnt go to the nfl because they could just fine players to make money, they should give all the fine money and crap to a charity or something.
I'm pretty sure the money does go to charity, actually.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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what are you trying to say here?

Everett broke his neck on a play that was not dirty. Roy William's horse collars have been banned as they have broken people's legs.

Regardless of whether or not they banned that horse collar tackle or not players will still play... you know the risk of football when you choose to play
yes everett broke it on a not dirty play. but those kind of injuries will start to come if the NFL allows players to hit everyone in sight.

I mean what does it help any player just to hammer a guy who has nothing to do with the play other than maybe injuring him?
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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I'm pretty sure the money does go to charity, actually.
Yeah and it is tax-deductible so the players are not at a total loss
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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i expect some people to never have a clue about what i'm talking about because they only see what they want to see and argue about what they want to argue about. there's a reason why they are football players and you aren't.
It's because i'm a girl, isn't it?

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they are highly motivated physical type-A alpha dogs who play a game watched by millions of people. every little hand motion and step they make is being watched and criticised. the game is exciting and with your blood pumping sometimes you make contact a second after the whistle. it happens. he wasn't trying to crush the guy's spine. let's call the game honorably and how teams actually perform and by the spirit of the game,
Whoa whoa whoa... when you're discussing hundreds of millions of dollars of investments on the field. you don't just say... lets go all, free and wild, and let the spirit of the game take us away.

That's not logic. That won't satisfy fans when players have to police themselves... and said players get ridiculously hurt, clubs lose millions upon millions of dollars because safety precautions weren't in place. Hell. The NFL would be the most dangerous job in america... the NFL (and PA) already has enough hot water on it's hands for taking care of the veterans (which it doesn't)... who in the past 40 years have suffered some horrific injuries and still can't live normal lives... but, this is merely an insurance policy so they don't have to pay out the ass, and thus charge the customers (you and i) more to pay these players so they can constantly be breaking each others bones... it doesn't make sense. anyway... you were saying?

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and not just because someone appeared to have hit a qb a half second after the ball was released and then do game altering 15 yard penalties. that's just the game though.

money and fines are people's lives. yes they play a game, but when you take a person's money no matter what percentage it is, you are interfering in their livelihood.
Which pro player is sitting on the corner looking for money? You want to talk about livelyhood? Look at the millions of americans without jobs. Quit looking up to these people who whine that 15k are taking away from them. If an average american family had that, they might be able to stay in their house.

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sit them for a quarter/half/game/season and fine them if its truly flagrant(which i don't think goodell can judge) but just taking their money is just plain dumb. i question their motives. what does it solve? its flagrant enough that they can take their money but nothing else? what kind of standard is that? good/Bad but legal/fineable/bad? what system is that? they didn't even do anything willis mcgahee gets his eye gouged out but they fine hines ward?!? where is the consistancy?!? it's straight up robbery. its the same argument for cops and minorities. if a cop follows a car for 15 minutes, that person is bound to break a minor law more often than a nonminority who is not being followed by cops. it seriously is discriminatory. they need something better than what they have.
I don't think you have the knowledge or credentials to be dictating the correct solutions for the NFL in regards to its ability to properly discipline it's players. at all.

Taking their money is good for the league? Do you know where it goes?

NFLPA Players Assistance Trust and other Charities involving Youth, Education, and Medicine. If you're whining about making a donation to a good cause. You are a selfish idiot.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:48 PM    (permalink
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Yeah and it is tax-deductible so the players are not at a total loss
Most likely the fine goes to the league, who then gives it to charity. The players probably won't be able to write-off the money.
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I don't have to watch it to know it was not interesting.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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yes everett broke it on a not dirty play. but those kind of injuries will start to come if the NFL allows players to hit everyone in sight.

I mean what does it help any player just to hammer a guy who has nothing to do with the play other than maybe injuring him?
Intimidation... trying to get them to retaliate and then get penalized...

Have you ever played organized football? I feel as though someone who has would not be asking these questions...
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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How is a hard hit ( not h-h or anything like that) like taking a pen from a company? If your going to say because it slightly shortins that guys career therby making the nfl less money, not really because fans like seeing big hits and if they happen more people will tune in or look at them on nfl.com

Also, you act as if the fining is an inaccurate process, when it doesnt have to be, you have the tapes sit down and examin them and make a logical desicion. If a hit is not helmet to helmet or after the play or a blindside hit there is no reason to fine the players.
If you want to go off and do something that's not necessarly allowed, take your own liberties at the prescribed status quo, you can get fined.

I will say yes, it can considerable shorten players careers. Injuries tend to do that.

Big hits don't make up a majority of the game. They make up a majority of ESPN highlights, not NFL game watchers. I don't go into a game to say. Wow. I wanna see this guy pop that guy. That doesn't happen. Ever.

There isn't clear cut rules on what is fine-able and what isn't... You have to look at motive, the circumstantial evidence, it's not 'clear cut' in anyway shape or form... In another thread you had, someone saying 'that guy was horrible, look what he did to eli manning's leg! total cheap shot'... but, if you just looked at it like that, you wouldn't have realized that there was a blocking situation that caused that to happen.

Sure some people can obviously say: that's a cheap shot and should be fined, but asking professionals to be perfect in a subjective field is an absolute lunacy.
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Intimidation... trying to get them to retaliate and then get penalized...

Have you ever played organized football? I feel as though someone who has would not be asking these questions...
why dont those guys try to win fair and square? i mean do they have no confidence in their own skill that they have to rely on the other team to commit fouls?

and what has that to do with organized football, its not like im the only one asking that
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Old 10-16-2008, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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so when a "kevin Everett" incident happens every 2nd game or Roy Williams goes around and breaks necks with horse collars, what do you think how many guys are going to play in 1-2 years?
that kind of scenario is what's muddling everything up here. nobody is saying that its ok to run full steam and out of control with intent to injure. neck accidents do happen though, it doesn't take much. people break their necks in flag football. the core issue is 'taking money for legal hits' and i'd even stretch it to 'nonthreatening hits' like pushing in the back in certain scenarios like the ward play. if roy williams battering rammed and broke lets say bolden's neck then i'd want roy fined, suspended, and maybe jailed depending on flagrantness. i think people assume their bosses have more authority over them when they shouldn't. if you let people walk on you then they will, right now goodell is walking on the players. worst cases and best examples are the fines for celebrations. it's the dumbest...absolutely IDIOTIC thing i have ever seen. 15 yard penalty punishes the team. end of story...yet somehow everyone accepts the fact that its justifiable to take the players money for it too. 15 yard is enough. 15 yards is the game. 15k is messing with their life. no right whatsoever. players just like any other workers have rights. if someone is a bad employee then you fire them, the employer doesn't dock his pay....what kind of job is that?
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Ok, kevin everett Lowered his head and went into the tackle with his head down into the ballcarrier. He broke the rules himself, and he caused his own injury as sad as it was, it was his fault.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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why dont those guys try to win fair and square? i mean do they have no confidence in their own skill that they have to rely on the other team to commit fouls?

and what has that to do with organized football, its not like im the only one asking that
I am saying that anyone who has played at least high school football can relate to a lot of the little extra hitting and what not that goes on in the NFL, and all of football, that people (mainly those who have never played football) get so upset about.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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that kind of scenario is what's muddling everything up here. nobody is saying that its ok to run full steam and out of control with intent to injure. neck accidents do happen though, it doesn't take much. people break their necks in flag football. the core issue is 'taking money for legal hits' and i'd even stretch it to 'nonthreatening hits' like pushing in the back in certain scenarios like the ward play. if roy williams battering rammed and broke lets say bolden's neck then i'd want roy fined, suspended, and maybe jailed depending on flagrantness. i think people assume their bosses have more authority over them when they shouldn't. if you let people walk on you then they will, right now goodell is walking on the players. worst cases and best examples are the fines for celebrations. it's the dumbest...absolutely IDIOTIC thing i have ever seen. 15 yard penalty punishes the team. end of story...yet somehow everyone accepts the fact that its justifiable to take the players money for it too. 15 yard is enough. 15 yards is the game. 15k is messing with their life. no right whatsoever. players just like any other workers have rights. if someone is a bad employee then you fire them, the employer doesn't dock his pay....what kind of job is that?
Dude, there are always certain rules, there are laws that are idiotic. Still if u agreed to play in the NFL or live in that state, u have to follow them.
in the celebration case its called unsportsmanlike conduct and to some point i can understand it. and to pushing someone in the back. It can ******* cause an injury. Thats why its forbidden...
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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yes, but just because it happens does it mean its alright?

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Originally Posted by steelersfan43 View Post
Ok, kevin everett Lowered his head and went into the tackle with his head down into the ballcarrier. He broke the rules himself, and he caused his own injury as sad as it was, it was his fault.
jesus i just mean when people get a bad injury like Everett did because of those unnecessary hittings, u think its gonna help the game? i dont mean the same exact movements that lead to it, i mean the injury itself
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Dude, there are always certain rules, there are laws that are idiotic. Still if u agreed to play in the NFL or live in that state, u have to follow them.
in the celebration case its called unsportsmanlike conduct and to some point i can understand it. and to pushing someone in the back. It can ******* cause an injury. Thats why its forbidden...
I hate this argument:

"That's the way it is so just deal with it"

The whole point is that it's wrong and it should change. If we always just "dealt with it" or always "followed the rules" the world would make no social advances.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by I am the beast View Post
I hate this argument:

"That's the way it is so just deal with it"

The whole point is that it's wrong and it should change. If we always just "dealt with it" or always "followed the rules" the world would make no social advances.
yes, i only meant to bring that argument for the celebrations that have nothing to do with this discussion so i said "deal with it" in other words.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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I hate this argument:

"That's the way it is so just deal with it"

The whole point is that it's wrong and it should change. If we always just "dealt with it" or always "followed the rules" the world would make no social advances.
Well. It was once that way. Everyone got the **** beaten out of them. And that's just the way it was... and you know what?

People were tired of being beaten the **** out of and asked for better conditions. So what did they do? Flag the teams. And if the players don't comply. Fine the players.

This is advancement, if you want to keep going in a cyclic form, you're never going to get anywhere. There is a line between focusing on micromanagement of calls and refs making all calls from the booth, and then there's the non-management, making no calls like they used to... (i know i just said it's cyclic), but, you can only go one way or another on this linear formula of lots of restrictions (which we're not quite at), or no restrictions (which is where we were, and that's called 'the past')
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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It's because i'm a girl, isn't it?



Whoa whoa whoa... when you're discussing hundreds of millions of dollars of investments on the field. you don't just say... lets go all, free and wild, and let the spirit of the game take us away.

That's not logic. That won't satisfy fans when players have to police themselves... and said players get ridiculously hurt, clubs lose millions upon millions of dollars because safety precautions weren't in place. Hell. The NFL would be the most dangerous job in america... the NFL (and PA) already has enough hot water on it's hands for taking care of the veterans (which it doesn't)... who in the past 40 years have suffered some horrific injuries and still can't live normal lives... but, this is merely an insurance policy so they don't have to pay out the ass, and thus charge the customers (you and i) more to pay these players so they can constantly be breaking each others bones... it doesn't make sense. anyway... you were saying?



Which pro player is sitting on the corner looking for money? You want to talk about livelyhood? Look at the millions of americans without jobs. Quit looking up to these people who whine that 15k are taking away from them. If an average american family had that, they might be able to stay in their house.



I don't think you have the knowledge or credentials to be dictating the correct solutions for the NFL in regards to its ability to properly discipline it's players. at all.

Taking their money is good for the league? Do you know where it goes?

NFLPA Players Assistance Trust and other Charities involving Youth, Education, and Medicine. If you're whining about making a donation to a good cause. You are a selfish idiot.
you didn't listen to a single thing i said and took it the way you wanted to read it. let's take 15k from your paycheck and donate it to charity. see if you agree with a selfish idiot then. what does nfl charities have to do with anything? that's like saying i'm going to steal someone's car and donate it to a homeless guy. YOU STOLE MY CAR! the action wasn't right. all of these guys have their own charities that they choose to donate to.

and i think you need glasses. i never said 'lets go free and wild' i was talking about not docking their pay for doing what they are paid to do.

NFL veterans have nothing to do with any of what i'm talking about. what i'm talking about is legal, you can go watch soccer if you want different rules.

nfl players sitting on corners? ofcourse not, the price doesn't matter its the principle of it.

you have the same credentials i do, definately not any more than i do

also, seriously change your tone off of me and attack the problem. i attack the reason. i'm not trying to prove some kind of thing because you're a girl, i'm arguing the point of fines.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Well. It was once that way. Everyone got the **** beaten out of them. And that's just the way it was... and you know what?

People were tired of being beaten the **** out of and asked for better conditions. So what did they do? Flag the teams. And if the players don't comply. Fine the players.

This is advancement, if you want to keep going in a cyclic form, you're never going to get anywhere. There is a line between focusing on micromanagement of calls and refs making all calls from the booth, and then there's the non-management, making no calls like they used to... (i know i just said it's cyclic), but, you can only go one way or another on this linear formula of lots of restrictions (which we're not quite at), or no restrictions (which is where we were, and that's called 'the past')
I am not taking a side on this argument. I was just pointing out that saying "it's the way it is" and hence "deal with it" is a terrible argument.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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well they didnt steal it. Those guys agreed to play in the NFL. If u dont want to pay the fine, then dont play in the NFL
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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you didn't listen to a single thing i said and took it the way you wanted to read it. let's take 15k from your paycheck and donate it to charity.
obviously, you weren't listening to me earlier, when i said, in the grand scheme of things, for hines ward to have 15k taking out of his paycheck was a very small percentage of what he makes on a yearly basis... .2%... I will be happy to donate .2% if my company asked me to. maybe i'm more generous than you and hines ward (he's a decent guy, and korean too! -.-)

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see if you agree with a selfish idiot then. what does nfl charities have to do with anything? that's like saying i'm going to steal someone's car and donate it to a homeless guy. YOU STOLE MY CAR! the action wasn't right. all of these guys have their own charities that they choose to donate to.
hyperbole. tl;dr

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and i think you need glasses. i never said 'lets go free and wild' i was talking about not docking their pay for doing what they are paid to do.
Which is what? You're sounding like you're advocating less restriction, less calling of penalties, and a more 'traditional' game of football like it's been played 20, 25 years ago. I say, that's not feasible now.

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NFL veterans have nothing to do with any of what i'm talking about. what i'm talking about is legal, you can go watch soccer if you want different rules.
why not?


Quote:
nfl players sitting on corners? ofcourse not, the price doesn't matter its the principle of it.
quit paying taxes then.

Quote:
you have the same credentials i do, definately not any more than i do
i do? are you college educated? do you work for a company studying the flow of business and analyzing every little ******* detail that comes your way?

Quote:
also, seriously change your tone off of me and attack the problem. i attack the reason. i'm not trying to prove some kind of thing because you're a girl, i'm arguing the point of fines.
change the tone off you? well. you've obviously made sexist comments. that's why i've been irritated.
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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i haven't made a single sexist comment
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