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Old 11-03-2008, 06:44 PM    (permalink
Vox Populi
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The Redskins look like they've gotten the better end of the deal at this point. Clinton Portis is a leading contender for the NFL MVP award this season and Champ Bailey arguably could have won defensive MVP a couple years ago when Jason Taylor won it. Both players are near or at the top of the rankings for their respective positions with Bailey a clear cut top 2 and Portis, right now looking like number 1, but is probably looked at as more of a top 5 guy along with LT, AD, SJax, Westbrooks and along with Gore maybe. There is more competition at running back, but right now, Portis on top of that list without question.

So, the trade gave one team a top tier running back in Clinton Portis and the other team got a future hall of fame and top overall corner back in Champ Bailey as well as a temporary stop gap at running back in Tatum Bell.

Now, the debate really comes down to who is more valuable to their team?

Champ Bailey makes the Denver defense at least respectable when he is on the field and shuts down his section of the field. You could see yesterday without him the impact that he really has, because Camarillo wouldn't have had a 100 yard 10+ catch day, and the Denver defense was more embarrassing than ever. Without Bailey this team might have more high profile young guys because they would have been picking higher every year, but they might have just been a crappier version of the mediocre team that they've been since his arrival.

Then you've got Tatum Bell who was a few yards off 100 when the Denver line was at the top of its game and was still pumping out ridiculous numbers out of the backfield with Mike Anderson back there as well. That second round pick didn't produce that much for the Broncos based on the fact that nearly any running back could have put up similar numbers to what Tatum did in his time with the Broncos.

Washington got Clinton Portis out of the deal, and they were a pretty bad team until last year/2 years ago when they started showing some improvement, and a lot of it was due to a piss poor passing game that improved and inconsistent play from the defensive backfield and pass rush. Clinton Portis' injuries didn't help them either, as he has consistently been banged up over his time as a Redskin and has always had some durability issues. His talent hasn't been questioned and hes always at least been considered a top 10 running back, mostly associated with the top 7 at the very least. Now this season we are seeing something different from Portis with the Jim Zorn era having begun in Washington. A lot of it has to do with the emergence of Jason Campbell and a somewhat potent passing attack. Portis' blocking helps the passing game, no doubt, but teams aren't just keying in on Portis to stop him now, they actually have to respect the pass in Washington.

I think Bailey is more valuable to the Broncos than Portis is to the Redskins, because the Broncos would have been a bottom 10 team in the league without him, although with a better running game from having Portis they might still be a middle of the pack team in the NFL this year, in years past though when the Broncos running system was actually working it wouldn't have made a huge difference. Without Portis the Redskins might be at the bottom of the NFC East, but their secondary would be ridiculous with Landry, Springs, Bailey, etc. and would have also had Taylor in there for a while too. No one would be going deep on them ever or even short to the outside...

It was a great trade for both teams and I think its a wash in terms of who "won" the trade, but the Broncos got the more valuable player in Bailey in my opinion.
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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How do you know he's never seen Bailey play? Because he has a different opinion than yours? Asomugha was thrown at less than any corner in the NFL last year. I believe he also had the highest success rate of any starting corner. Maybe it's you who hasn't seen Nnamdi play...

Also, Nnamdi has 0 interception this year, 1 last year, and 8 the year before (9 over the last 2.5 years). Champ has 1 this year, 3 last year, and 10 the year before (14 over the last 2.5 years). Maybe it's you who is judging by interception numbers...

That said, I think Denver got the better end of the deal. An elite corner is more valuable than an elite running back.
Sure, he had the highest success rate, but when he got burned, it was worse then 95% of corners.

How do I know he's never seen bailey play? because 1. he doesn't watch broncos games (not a broncos fan, nor a fan of an afc west team)

2. Stats that mean more then interception numbers:. Asomugha's 2007 season- He had one of the highest yards allowed per unsuccessful play (plays he allows a completion-- 18.8, which ranked 79th out of 81. So he was almost never targeted or beaten, but when he was beaten, he often gave up big chunks of yardage. (source is KC Joyner, NFL Statician) I don't care what else you say, any corner ranking last in the league in a category as important as that isn't #1. This is what you call getting burned worse then 78 of 81 nfl corners tested
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:53 PM    (permalink
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I also think that it should be mentioned that the Broncos didn't really intend on cutting their only really talented running back in Travis Henry for being the dumb **** idiot that he is at the start of the off season otherwise they might have shot a little higher than Michael Pittman and Ryan Torain when assessing their situation at running back, so even though they could have signed someone else, or drafted someone like Ray Rice or Steve Slaton earlier or traded back up again for Jones, Mendenhall, Johnson, etc. they didn't because Henry passed his polygraph test at the time (lol) so they thought they had a semi-legit back on their hands going into the season rather than the pack of crap they've got right now in Hall, Torain and Pittman. Remember also that Selvin Young was having a pretty solid year earlier in the season too averaging over 5 yards a carry. They weren't planning on being on their third-fifth backs.

edit. and both Pittman and Hall have been put on IR now ending their seasons. Now they've got Selvin Young and Ryan Torain back there, not sure how healthy Young is at this point though.

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Old 11-03-2008, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Sure, he had the highest success rate, but when he got burned, it was worse then 95% of corners.

How do I know he's never seen bailey play? because 1. he doesn't watch broncos games (not a broncos fan, nor a fan of an afc west team)

2. Stats that mean more then interception numbers:. Asomugha's 2007 season- He had one of the highest yards allowed per unsuccessful play (plays he allows a completion-- 18.8, which ranked 79th out of 81. So he was almost never targeted or beaten, but when he was beaten, he often gave up big chunks of yardage. (source is KC Joyner, NFL Statician) I don't care what else you say, any corner ranking last in the league in a category as important as that isn't #1. This is what you call getting burned worse then 78 of 81 nfl corners tested


Haha, I've watched Champ play buddy. It's in my job description to watch NFL games of every team. So, because he barely got targeted at all, and give up a few good plays, he's not as good? Give me a break. Which corner did a better job? Someone who gives up 2 catches for 38 yards or someone who gives up 6 catches for 75 yards?
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Haha, I've watched Champ play buddy. It's in my job description to watch NFL games of every team. So, because he barely got targeted at all, and give up a few good plays, he's not as good? Give me a break. Which corner did a better job? Someone who gives up 2 catches for 38 yards or someone who gives up 6 catches for 75 yards?
So you're a self-employed football analyst living with your family and half-assing your way through high school then, right?
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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that's the biggest load of bull**** i've ever heard. your "argument" is a joke, as it basically consists of "you're wearing shades, like, totally man" and "omg, i'm going to make up some meaningless numbers and then still find a way to misinterpret them".

given that you've said nothing substantive whatsoever about EITHER player, one can only conclude you don't have the faintest ****ing clue what you're talking about and disregard your "opinion" for the bogus crapola that it apparently is.

that or you could actually, you know, attempt to formulate a REAL argument and then maybe this would be a discussion vaguely worth having.

Yes. I recall using the phrase totally man a few times actually. What would you like of substance from either player? I misinterpret the numbers. He gives me the fact that Nnamdi is rarely targeted, (which would show that a receiver has less catches against him) but more yards. So, crazy I know, but I compared a guy who gives up less catches for a higher YPC, to a guy who gives up a few more catches with a lower YPC. Crazy. No relevance. Completely off base, out of this world. Let me guess, you are a Broncos fan too? If anyone here has a ridiculous argument, it would be you sir, because I actually have quite a good idea of what I'm talking about.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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So you're a self-employed football analyst living with your family and half-assing your way through high school then, right?

Not really close, but if you want to go with that, cool.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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Portis is one of my favourite players but I still think Bailey is more valuable to a team than Portis is, purely because lockdown corners are harder to come by than quality RBs. And despite the apparent stats that people are throwing out about Bailey being overrated, he has been a consensus top corner in the NFL for a number of years and there are reasons for that. Still as STRIP said, it could be easily argued that trading Bailey opened up several doors for the Skins.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:44 PM    (permalink
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you compared completely hypothetical situations. thus, what you're arguing has no basis in reality. thus, it's not relevant. either argue the real numbers or admit that because the only thing you've presented is "shades" and made up statistics, you actually haven't seen either of them play enough to make any argument whatsoever.

who i root for has about as much to do with any of this as who you root for. because i have actually watched a football game this season, i felt no need to bring that up. because you're arguing from a weak position, you're grasping at any straw you think you can get your hands on. stop it, it just makes your argument look even more worthless than it was to begin with.
Grasping at straws? It's extremely tough to compare stats for CBs, and you'll find a good number of people who don't agree with the stats Joyner got, and Jimmy presented. And didn't get a good enough look at either of them? I'm willing to bet I've seen quite a bit more of Asomugha then yourself, and probably not as much Champ, but more than enough to make a fair comparison. But I'm new here. How does this work? Since you've got a lot of posts and act like you know all, am I supposed to just bow down, or what?
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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basically the redskins are only just getting the better end of the deal now i would say, portis has been a damn good back since he got there but only this season has he been elite in the same way bailey was since he got the denver
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Can't we just agree that it's a push?
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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of course Aso hasn't been thrown on the last few years, he's had guys like Stanford Routt and Fabian Washington there. Champ was traded when he was pretty much in his prime and just completely shut down, and still is. I'm not getting into the Aso-Champ argument, both are excellent CB's and I honestly don't give enough of a **** to watch their games(can't get Denver games, and wouldn't torture myself to watch Oak games consistantly)

Now on the Den/Washington deal: I believe it's MUCH harder to find a lockdown CB then it is to get a very good RB. Now I know Portis is probably better than "very good", case can be made he is elite right now. Let's just say I'd much rather be starting the likes of a Raymell Rice than a Terrell Thomas. Plus, so many times you'll see a very good RB ala Turner the Burner go in FA due to him being stuck in a 2 back system. You don't see lockdown CB's go in FA everyday.

In the end, both teams "won" fililng holes and moving on, getting excellent players in return. The broncos, IMO had an easier hole to fill in RB(especially with their ZBS) but the skins have arguably been more successful with Portis and drafting/signing ok CB's.
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Even deal imo......seriously, both teams got what they were expecting. Champ is a consensus top 2 corner in the league (the best imho) and Portis has been on of the best at RB. Both teams got what they wanted, good deal for both teams.
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Old 11-03-2008, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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It has been a question that has gone unanswered for years. Both teams have had the ability to argue that one got the better end of the deal. I think we finally have a definite answer. Who got the better end of the deal in the Portis/ Bailey blockbuster?The Washington Redskins did.

After years of being convinced that Portis would never return to his Bronco form, and that the Broncos had won out on the trade deal, it has became clear that C.P. has returned to his old form, and that the Broncos got a hall of famer who couldn't do it on his own. C-Po might have lost half a step straight line, but he certainly hasn't lost anything else. He is leading the NFL in rushing, and is on pace to run for 1888 yards and 14 Touchdowns.

Now, before I tell you all about how Portis is more valuable then Bailey, know that no matter what anyone says about Asomugha, Bailey is still hands down the best corner in the NFL. If you disagree, it is simply because you do not watch the Denver Broncos, and you make assesments based off stats. Bailey is literally the team's best form tackler, is better in run support then any of our linebackers not named DJ Williams, and is still the most dominant cover corner in this league. Sure he has 1 pick, but he has been tested literally about 10 times this season, less then his historic season with 10 picks. Bailey has 32 tackles, 25 of those likely from run support and special teams, where he has prevented 2 or 3 touchdowns. Has he lost a step? God no, just watch him play, stop assuming that less INT's = lost step.

However, this is not a homer thread. This is a thread to acknowledge that the Washington Redskins won out on that deal. It has been over half a decade, and the trade can now be evaluated. Bailey may have developed into a top 3 corner ever, but the fact of the matter is, not once has this defensive unit been unbelievable, and not once has he single handedly carried this team. He is the best defensive player in the AFC, and I am prepared to defend that, but he is not as valuable as Clinton Portis. Portis would have touched the ball some 20-30 times a game as a Broncos, and the Broncos may have even won a Superbowl had we kept Clinton. The fact of the matter is, Bailey is out injured for a few more weeks, our defense continues to suffer, and this quite possibly is the worst 4-4 team in the history of the nfl.

So... share your opinnions.. who won the deal? Agree or disagree?
I would like to just say that Bailey shouldn't even have a pick if the replay was working during the Chargers/Broncos game.
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Old 11-04-2008, 02:56 AM    (permalink
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It was a win-win trade for both teams.
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Old 11-04-2008, 03:08 AM    (permalink
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Definite win-win. I barely even remember Champ on the Redskins.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:54 AM    (permalink
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Have to include Tatum Bell into the scenario(the 2nd round pick Broncos received in the trade), who was traded away with George Foster to get Dre Bly.

So, one could argue that the Broncos got Champ and Dre Bly for Clinton Portis.

Now, I have always felt that RB's are easier to come by than CB's. Look at some of the top RB's in the game today, Marion Barber, Brian Westbrook, Michael Turner, Matt Forte, heck even Portis, none of them were taken in round 1.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:45 AM    (permalink
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Have to include Tatum Bell into the scenario(the 2nd round pick Broncos received in the trade), who was traded away with George Foster to get Dre Bly.

So, one could argue that the Broncos got Champ and Dre Bly for Clinton Portis.

Now, I have always felt that RB's are easier to come by than CB's. Look at some of the top RB's in the game today, Marion Barber, Brian Westbrook, Michael Turner, Matt Forte, heck even Portis, none of them were taken in round 1.
well you can always argue that but then you forget the fact that we traded away a 1st rounder in foster. sure, running back's are easier to come by, but bailey hasn't won us any superbowls, portis had a much higher chance of doing so. bly should not be a starter in this league anymore, btw
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:34 AM    (permalink
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I love njx9 i really do
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Old 11-04-2008, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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garbage excuses for a franchise for the win!
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:18 AM    (permalink
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You're actually saying that I based off everything from two years of his play. I do remember from my so called selective memory that we got killed in that playoff game, that doesn't mean that a few more years with the man would have done nothing. If we had stuck with portis, we would have had a better chance of winning big. That is my oppinion. Bailey has brought us to 1 afc championship game, by the way, we were also slaughtered there. bailey may have "led" our defense, but we certainly haven't gotten any substantial returns from a winning in the playoffs standpoint. does one year define the impact a player made on a team? had we stuck with him for more then say, two-three years, we might have started to see some real return. regardless of whether or not portis could lead a band of monkeys has nothing do to with the fact that he would have had a greater overall impact on our chances of winning a superbowl.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:21 AM    (permalink
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seriously as long we are not talking about a QB we will never talk about leading a team to a SB.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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which is again a ludicrous opinion with no basis whatsoever in fact. we haven't won a super bowl because mike shanahan is an incompetent general manager, this is true, but it's not the only reason. of course, that would be the typical denver fan thing to do. blame everything on one person, i mean really, shanahan has made every single decision in this organization the last 10 years, right? not because we've been missing portis' 1154 yards, 8.5 tds and 4ypc (average) over the last four years once again you miss the point, portis would have thrived here, this is what we call [i] the denver running back system, he most likely would have put up 1,400 and 14 td a season (and not counting this one, as it's disingenuous to count a season that hasn't been completed). as mentioned, we actually made the AFCC with bailey. and once again, i say that we would have gotten father with a substantial back... gee.. jake sure sucked that game... i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that our leading rusher had 36 yards? thats funny, i wonder if portis might have provided a boost in that category? yes? and whoa... come to think of it, maybe jake plummer would have played better had we establishe the run! "ZOMG" when was the last time the redskins made the NFCC? irrelevant, that broncos team that year was better then any skins team the last 10, you miss the point again, how the skins do with portis has nothing to do with the fact that portis would have picked the broncos up they certainly aren't any more inept than the broncos regarding personnel decisions. denver's won 10 MORE games than the redskins since the trade (8 if you really want to count this year). you're a smart guy. i honestly can't believe you thing this is relevant, when clearly my argument is that the broncos would have benefited more. this isn't a "who got the better deal argument im having with you, its a the broncos would have done better

basically your argument boils down to "i like portis because he's currently an MVP candidate and i don't remember two weeks ago when bailey was the only person of any value whatsoever on the broncos defense so portis is the best ever and we shouldn't have traded him." ZOMG your so smart trying to stupify my comments! its not like portis would have averaged 14 TD and 1400 yards a season had he stayed here or anything... regardless, i mean in your humble opinion, Bailey could have easily matched portis's production at the corner position, right? he is a corner. it is a luxury to have a starting corner bound to go to the hall of fame, And we all know how great he played, but all in all, our defense was never that great, and isn't that great with him that or "ZOMG we only ran for 14 yards last week, if we'd just had a running back we'd be like, 5-3 which is clearly super bowl bound and renders all of the team's NUMEROUS deficincies irrelevant." that's funny... our record wouldn't even be close to 5-3. who knows what it would have been like... we wouldn't even have Jay-C. Plummer might still be the qb. who knows. nice attempt at trying to water down my argument in the public eye. our team would have a completely different complexity, we wouldn't have two scrubs at safety, but im glad you so blindedly interpreted my argument
your "opinion" that portis would have a better chance of leading us to a super bowl is demonstratably and clearly incorrect.
opinion, noun: a view or judgement or something. i know you try your best to get your whole intimidation/ your argument makes no sense, but im entitled to my own opinion, you can't tell me if its wrong. that's just the definition of opinion.

and you certainly can't warn me, unless i broke a rule

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Old 11-04-2008, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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and since stats have never been a good way of arguing anything about cornerback play, perhaps they should simply be disregarded. shocking, i know.



*shrug* then talk about him. if you've actually seen him play, i'm sure you could actually give an argument that has marginally higher quality than "nice shades".



where have i even remotely suggested anything of the sort? what is it with you people? just because someone strongly disagrees with you or tells you your opinion is crap you have to play the weak and pathetic victim being abused by the big bad post count? that's literally one of the two or three most pathetic things that gets said on this board. you're SUPPOSED to actually attempt a reasonable argument for what you believe that doesn't involve calling someone else wrong and a homer without bothering to back up said opinion. since you'd rather whine like a two year old, i'll assume you're not capable of that and really don't have any bloody idea what the hell you're talking about.

Once again, what are you looking for chief? We both agree cornerback stats aren't very valuable. I've stated a few times that I've seen both players a ton. I'm saying Asomugha is better. Is it hard to connect the two? I've watched the games, and formed an opinion Asomugha grades out higher.
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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no, it's not. if you had the opinion that the earth was made of snow, you'd be wrong. period. no one would care if it was your opinion.
I don't want to sidetrack you from the argument, but you cannot have an opinion that the earth is made of snow. That's a false statement / fact.

If someone proclaimed their opinion, "In my opinion, the earth is made of snow!" they'd be using the English language incorrectly.
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