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Old 01-14-2009, 10:24 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by Smokey Joe View Post
A few questions about people who are experts on the 3-4...

What are the specific differences between both ILB and both OLB's in a 3-4. ie., what determines which side they have, skill sets needed, etc.
To put it simply, 2, 3-4 ILB's have far less field to cover and can therefore be much slower than 4-3 ILB's.
DE's provide the main pass rush in a 4-3 defense while OLB's provide the main pass rush in a 3-4 defense. As a general rule because there are 4 LB's in a 3-4, they can all be a slower than 4-3 LB's. That is not to say that they are all slower than a 4-3 LB, it just adds another position where you can get away with being slower.
OLB's in a 3-4 also have to be able in a lot of their defensive schemes, to play as a DE on occasion and thus usually have to be a bigger than 4-3 OLB's.
There are other differences because there are 2 kinds of 4-3 defenses, a Cover 2 or a basic 4-3 and many 3-4 teams have different defensive schemes they use but these are the main differences that exist.
As for individual abilities. The stronger ILB run defender might switch to the TE side or the LDE side where teams usually run more. The same for OLB's. The better pass rusher might be put on the side of the RDE if he is a weaker tackler as teams usually run to their right side more against the LDE's. So basically the better run defenders will probably be put on the left side and the weaker run defenders on the right side or some teams may mix the 2 up.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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There are other differences because there are 2 kinds of 4-3 defenses, a Cover 2 or a basic 4-3 and many 3-4 teams have different defensive schemes they use but these are the main differences that exist.
Don't forget you have Cover 2, Tampa 2, and a regular style 4-3 defense.
I prefer the aggressive style of 4-3 after seeing the nonsense we ran when Lewis was our DC.

On general note, any members know anything about their team's new system implemented to their team, be it offense or defense?
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Hey are 49ers going to run a 4-3 or 3-4 this year?
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Hey are 49ers going to run a 4-3 or 3-4 this year?
3-4, just like we have been since Nolan was hired. Occasionally we have 4-3 fronts but most the time, if there are 4 down linemen, it's in nickel or dime.
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Old 03-12-2009, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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3-4, just like we have been since Nolan was hired. Occasionally we have 4-3 fronts but most the time, if there are 4 down linemen, it's in nickel or dime.
Who will make up the 4 down linemen in the 4-3 front?
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Don't forget you have Cover 2, Tampa 2, and a regular style 4-3 defense.
I prefer the aggressive style of 4-3 after seeing the nonsense we ran when Lewis was our DC.

On general note, any members know anything about their team's new system implemented to their team, be it offense or defense?
Jacksonville is going back to a Cover Two thankfully. It suits the personnel much better. Durant and Smith are two good linebackers that can run, hit, and cover.

If the young defensive ends progress as expected, this defense could make a nice turnaround from last season's disaster of a performance. It'd be nice to get a stud UT to take some pressure off John Henderson, too. He really struggled last season, getting no help from any other defensive lineman.

I'm not too worried about the secondary as long as the defensive line gets some help.

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Old 03-12-2009, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Jacksonville is going back to a Cover Two thankfully. It suits the personnel much better. Durant and Smith are two good linebackers that can run, hit, and cover.

If the young defensive ends progress as expected, this defense could make a nice turnaround from last season's disaster of a performance. It'd be nice to get a stud UT to take some pressure off John Henderson, too. He really struggled last season, getting no help from any other defensive lineman.

I'm not too worried about the secondary as long as the defensive line gets some help.
Peria Jerry would be ideal.
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Old 03-12-2009, 03:45 PM    (permalink
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Peria Jerry would be ideal.
To be honest, I really want to trade out of the 8 spot for him or Percy. Hopefully someone falls in love with Sanchez and tries to trade in front of San Francisco to get him.

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Old 03-12-2009, 03:51 PM    (permalink
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Jacksonville is going back to a Cover Two thankfully. It suits the personnel much better. Durant and Smith are two good linebackers that can run, hit, and cover.

If the young defensive ends progress as expected, this defense could make a nice turnaround from last season's disaster of a performance. It'd be nice to get a stud UT to take some pressure off John Henderson, too. He really struggled last season, getting no help from any other defensive lineman.

I'm not too worried about the secondary as long as the defensive line gets some help.
Well that's the key in a cover 2 scheme. You guys need DL pressure or else it's going to be a long season. The thing that helps a team like the Colts is having Mathis and Freeney. You guys need your DL to come up huge, especially in that system.
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Old 03-13-2009, 05:21 AM    (permalink
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Well that's the key in a cover 2 scheme. You guys need DL pressure or else it's going to be a long season. The thing that helps a team like the Colts is having Mathis and Freeney. You guys need your DL to come up huge, especially in that system.
The crazy thing is that Jack Del Rio and Mike Smith made the scheme work up until last season with zero pressure at all. Hugh Douglas, Tony Brackens, Paul Spicer, Jason Gilden, Reggie Hayward, and Rob Meier have been previous starters on Jacksonville at the DE position since 2003.

You can't imagine how much losing Mike Smith meant to this team. You can see the results of how good of a coach he is in how quickly he got things turned around in Atlanta.
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Old 03-13-2009, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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The crazy thing is that Jack Del Rio and Mike Smith made the scheme work up until last season with zero pressure at all. Hugh Douglas, Tony Brackens, Paul Spicer, Jason Gilden, Reggie Hayward, and Rob Meier have been previous starters on Jacksonville at the DE position since 2003.

You can't imagine how much losing Mike Smith meant to this team. You can see the results of how good of a coach he is in how quickly he got things turned around in Atlanta.
Yeah he is a good coach with a good GM. But let the honey moon period end, and let's see how he does in the long hall of things. If I am not mistaken Fassel started out good and then was avg before the wheels came totally off. But DL pressure is huge for those types of defensive systems.
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Old 08-21-2009, 01:25 PM    (permalink
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Now that teams have different coordinators on both sides of the ball put observed scheme changes in here.

For instance now that Plax and Toomer are gone, we have re-adjusted our passing scheme to a certain extent. From what I observed so far, in the first preseason game, we seemed to have run a lot of installed screens. From RB, WR, and TE screens. We also ran simple ISO and LEAD concept runs vs the Panthers 4-3 base front, which they seemed to keep the same, according to John Fox.

The passing scheme was the basic curl, slant, and in routes, but good to see us also check down when nothing else was open. Looking forward to see some more practice of installs tomorrow vs the Bears.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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Here BBD for you:

This is the basics for the install for this system. Obviously you can change it, and manipulate based on what you like and don't like. Also, remember when you install a system at any level, especially with this, the way you rep and practice is different too.. This holds true for this system. The way Leach practices is a lot different than any other coach might practice his system. It's really interesting how they rep this system.

THE SYSTEM

10-runs
20-runs
30-runs
40-fast screens right
50-fast screens left
60-quick game
70-nothing/false number during Nascar series
80-playactions,same as 90's
90-dropback


FORMATIONS:
colors= 2 RB sets
reg words-1 RB set

SHOTGUN:

Blue- 3 WR 2 RB (X,Y,Z) (BLUE- HB left)
Green-same as blue,but the RB and FB switch sides(X,Y,Z)(GREEN- HB right)
Ace-2 x 2 formation (X,H,Y,Z)
Early- 3 x 1 formation ( X,Y,H,Z)
Dart-2 x 2 formation,same as ace but X is inside and H is outside

UNDER CENTER:

Orange-I-formation
Black -offset, FB weak (BLACK-FB left)
Brown-offset, FB strong (BROWN-FB right)

FORMATION VARIATIONS
FLIP-puts the Z inside the X in any formation (Ace Flip gives u a trips left look)
FLOP-same as FLIP ,but the X is inside the Z
OPEN-flexes Y if ur base form has the tight-end in a 3pt stance
YO-puts Y in a 3pt stance if your base formation flexes him out wide
RIP-puts the Y off the ball and the Z on the ball
LATE-puts the Z in the slot on the same side as the Y,Y flexes out
SQUEEZE-compresses any spread formation
TITE-brings the X in to a tight end position backside
UNDER-puts the QB under center when he usually is in shotgun

DROPBACK (Tags)

90-Shallow (Z-Curl)
91-Smash (Cop,Slugo)
92-Mesh (Z-Post,F-Wheel,H-Wheel,Pyramid)
93- H-Wheel
94-Y-Sail (F-Angle,Z-Post))
95 -Y-Cross(Z-Post,X-Post,H,Backside)
96-All Curls (H-Wheel,Z-Post,X-Post)
97-Verticals (Z-Dig, X-Dig)


QUICK GAME

60-Speed Out (outside )
63-Quick Out (slot)
66-Hitch (outside)
67-Slant (Outside)
68-Y-Stick
69-Y-Corner

SCREENS

Fast
Slow
Bubble
Crack
Jailbreak

ROLLOUT

Rodeo-Right
Lasso-Left

BASE RUN GAME

Speed Sweep
Zone
Iso
Power
Speed Option
Lead Draw

NASCAR

no huddle system(many ways to do it)
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
Don't forget you have Cover 2, Tampa 2, and a regular style 4-3 defense.
I prefer the aggressive style of 4-3 after seeing the nonsense we ran when Lewis was our DC.

On general note, any members know anything about their team's new system implemented to their team, be it offense or defense?
I think there's more than one style of 4-3 defense that's not Tampa 2 out there. The scheme the Packers ran last year was entirely different from the scheme the Eagles/Giants run, and both of those are entirely different from the scheme the Seahawks run, for example.

As far as what the Colts are going to do scheme wise, It's going to still be a Tampa 2 scheme, but the team is going to use more concepts from other schemes. Thus far, it looks like those concepts are coming from the attacking 4-3 scheme of Jim Johnson and the bump and run secondary concepts of the Packers 4-3 scheme from last year.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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I think there's more than one style of 4-3 defense that's not Tampa 2 out there. The scheme the Packers ran last year was entirely different from the scheme the Eagles/Giants run, and both of those are entirely different from the scheme the Seahawks run, for example.

As far as what the Colts are going to do scheme wise, It's going to still be a Tampa 2 scheme, but the team is going to use more concepts from other schemes. Thus far, it looks like those concepts are coming from the attacking 4-3 scheme of Jim Johnson and the bump and run secondary concepts of the Packers 4-3 scheme from last year.
Yeah I am sure they fall into the Jim J's style of 4-3, or just a compilation of different defensive theories that take a little from every system.

So I am guessing probably a lot more man on the outside, and perhaps a little more aggressiveness but keeping some of the responsibilities and keys the same from the tampa 2.

It will be interesting to see. Now that I have DVR on one tv, and VHS tape on the other I can record more games and break it down. Though, for offensive purposes, I may just do the your offense. That to me is very interesting.

Are you excited to see this new defense of yours?
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Old 08-26-2009, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Are you excited to see this new defense of yours?
I'm VERY excited to see the new defense, but that has a lot more to do with the personnel than it does with the scheme, though Wheeler is made more promising by the new scheme. The entire defensive personnel unit is more talented than it has been at any point in the past decade IMO (this includes two units that placed in the Top 2 in scoring defense in the league), it should be a fun unit to watch.
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Old 08-27-2009, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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I'm VERY excited to see the new defense, but that has a lot more to do with the personnel than it does with the scheme, though Wheeler is made more promising by the new scheme. The entire defensive personnel unit is more talented than it has been at any point in the past decade IMO (this includes two units that placed in the Top 2 in scoring defense in the league), it should be a fun unit to watch.
Yeah I remember Wheeler coming out of college. I will be interested to see how he does as well. Sometimes talent doesn't come out due to scheme. Remember when people said we had a terrible secondary couple years ago? That was due to scheme and our DC was Tim Lewis. Once we fired him, and spags came in and changed it around and used our guys the right way. Our play increased for the better a 1000%. All of a sudden that made Webster a star. Someone who everything thought was a bust, came alive in a new system.

So a change of coordinator always scares me, even if they come from the within the staff, there is always some questions to be answered. You just hope he doesn't screw around and put good talent in the wrong spots, or doesn't utilize everyone efficiently.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:13 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Here BBD for you:

This is the basics for the install for this system. Obviously you can change it, and manipulate based on what you like and don't like. Also, remember when you install a system at any level, especially with this, the way you rep and practice is different too.. This holds true for this system. The way Leach practices is a lot different than any other coach might practice his system. It's really interesting how they rep this system.

THE SYSTEM

10-runs
20-runs
30-runs
40-fast screens right
50-fast screens left
60-quick game
70-nothing/false number during Nascar series
80-playactions,same as 90's
90-dropback


FORMATIONS:
colors= 2 RB sets
reg words-1 RB set

SHOTGUN:

Blue- 3 WR 2 RB (X,Y,Z) (BLUE- HB left)
Green-same as blue,but the RB and FB switch sides(X,Y,Z)(GREEN- HB right)
Ace-2 x 2 formation (X,H,Y,Z)
Early- 3 x 1 formation ( X,Y,H,Z)
Dart-2 x 2 formation,same as ace but X is inside and H is outside

UNDER CENTER:

Orange-I-formation
Black -offset, FB weak (BLACK-FB left)
Brown-offset, FB strong (BROWN-FB right)

FORMATION VARIATIONS
FLIP-puts the Z inside the X in any formation (Ace Flip gives u a trips left look)
FLOP-same as FLIP ,but the X is inside the Z
OPEN-flexes Y if ur base form has the tight-end in a 3pt stance
YO-puts Y in a 3pt stance if your base formation flexes him out wide
RIP-puts the Y off the ball and the Z on the ball
LATE-puts the Z in the slot on the same side as the Y,Y flexes out
SQUEEZE-compresses any spread formation
TITE-brings the X in to a tight end position backside
UNDER-puts the QB under center when he usually is in shotgun

DROPBACK (Tags)

90-Shallow (Z-Curl)
91-Smash (Cop,Slugo)
92-Mesh (Z-Post,F-Wheel,H-Wheel,Pyramid)
93- H-Wheel
94-Y-Sail (F-Angle,Z-Post))
95 -Y-Cross(Z-Post,X-Post,H,Backside)
96-All Curls (H-Wheel,Z-Post,X-Post)
97-Verticals (Z-Dig, X-Dig)


QUICK GAME

60-Speed Out (outside )
63-Quick Out (slot)
66-Hitch (outside)
67-Slant (Outside)
68-Y-Stick
69-Y-Corner

SCREENS

Fast
Slow
Bubble
Crack
Jailbreak

ROLLOUT

Rodeo-Right
Lasso-Left

BASE RUN GAME

Speed Sweep
Zone
Iso
Power
Speed Option
Lead Draw

NASCAR

no huddle system(many ways to do it)
thanks bro. im gonna try to catch some of their games this year and just see this scheme in action as well. ill use this as a template on what to look for.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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thanks bro. im gonna try to catch some of their games this year and just see this scheme in action as well. ill use this as a template on what to look for.
Or just PM me your playbook and this goes for anyone else that would like playbooks. Since it's the start of the year, I will send some out for people to look at. I have Sp. teams, offense, and defense..

I have a lot of Air Raid playbooks, so hit me up BBD, and I will send you some, if it fits in the email of course.
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Old 08-27-2009, 12:11 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Or just PM me your playbook and this goes for anyone else that would like playbooks. Since it's the start of the year, I will send some out for people to look at. I have Sp. teams, offense, and defense..

I have a lot of Air Raid playbooks, so hit me up BBD, and I will send you some, if it fits in the email of course.
Baby steps Shock :) I like watching a system first, getting a general idea of how it works and what they like to do, then i go into the details afterwards, watch it all over again, and fill in the pieces.
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Old 08-27-2009, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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http://smartfootball.com/

This is a great site with lot of good info. I've been going to this site for a while and I've always gotten a lot out of it. The analysis is very good techincal stuff is very well done.
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Old 08-27-2009, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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http://smartfootball.com/

This is a great site with lot of good info. I've been going to this site for a while and I've always gotten a lot out of it. The analysis is very good techincal stuff is very well done.
Yup! One of the best sites out there..
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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We need to bring this thread back.

This is more of a general football philosophy question

I was just watching NFL Network, and Jason La Canfora made the point of how the Ravens offense was struggling with Cover 2 defenses because Flacco was not connecting on 15-20 yard routes behind the corners and in front of the safeties. He said Baltimore did a great job of adjusting to this by running a lot of screens and checkdowns to combat the amount of Cover 2 they were seeing.

My question is, what is the optimal gameplan for a team like Minnesota, who is struggling mightily with picking up man blitzes all season long? They have tried to screen teams, but it is sniffed out way more than they would like, so I don't think that would be an option at this point. How can they set themselves up to better defend the blitz? It seems like they are just blowing assignments (particularly Peterson, who has cost Favre at least 7-8 huge hits this year) all the time.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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As I recall, Minnesota's offensive line huge but not particularly mobile. That makes screen harder (but not impossible), because it's harder to fool the linebackers or convince defensive linemen they beat the block that easy.

The problem gets compounded because when you struggle to pass prospect, you tend to leave people in the backfield but when you run a screen involving clearing the backfield, that sends a pretty good sign. Shorter dump-offs are great, but delayed blitzes will wreck that **** up.

I'm far from an expert in strategy, and having never had to work any problem solving out against a defense that was a fraction as complicated as an NFL defense, I could be missing something, but the most obvious (and very imperfect) solution I know is that if the team is going to blitz you and you can't get get a runner who can stay back and handle that, all you can do is try to dictate the blitz direction. Get a tight end in the box, cheat a backfield blocker to the same side, and run short slants with Favre all day long (he still throws those really well). If a blitz is coming, just make sure it's not productive from half the field. This practice only really works if you have a quarterback who can hang in the pocket and throw off the back foot like Favre can. Eventually teams will blitz less.

That said, in the meantime, Favre is going to take hits because the Vikings can't stop it. There ultimately aren't a whole lot of solutions to not being able to pass protect, just bandaid solutions to lessen pressure.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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My first thoughts are having the TE delay his route. Acting as a blocker for the first moment then running a simple 4 yard route. Assuming the defense is blitzing 1-2 linebackers that should mean a safety is on the TE. Ideally he'd see the TE block and start looking to help the corners.

I'd go with slant or slant-&-go routes for the WRs. Slant routes lead the WR's into the space emptied by the blitzing LBs. Slant & go keeps the corners honest.

For the Vikings specifically, you could just run the ball. If you run away from the blitz, those are essentially defenders you don't have to block. Which means AP should be running into the secondary.
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