2009 Draft thread

[hannah73]

That's who I think they need. A real TE, instead of an athlete who has cement hands and fights the ball.

[ElectricEye]

Over a safety, corner, or a pass rusher? No thanks. If really felt we needed a blocking tight end, we would have kept Daniel Graham around, who Pettigrew compares to. I agree that Watson is a pretty garbage player(in a frustrating way) and a waste of talent, but he isn't bad enough for us to need to draft a tight end in the first round. Besides, we kinda found ways around throwing to tight ends in our offense. Welker basically does the same thing an elite tight end would do for us in the receiving game, except on the goaline.

It wouldn't be a bad move to take a guy in the third round, but not anywhere near before it. If Jermaine Gresham was in the draft, maybe it would be different...but he isn't. Jared Cook might be a good guy to take a look at if he were to fall. If not, we can basically get the same caliber of blocker at tight end as Pettigrew in Anthony Hill in the 4th or 5th round.

[hannah73]

Originally Posted by ElectricEye

Over a safety, corner, or a pass rusher? No thanks. If really felt we needed a blocking tight end, we would have kept Daniel Graham around, who Pettigrew compares to. I agree that Watson is a pretty garbage player(in a frustrating way) and a waste of talent, but he isn't bad enough for us to need to draft a tight end in the first round. Besides, we kinda found ways around throwing to tight ends in our offense. Welker basically does the same thing an elite tight end would do for us in the receiving game, except on the goaline.

It wouldn't be a bad move to take a guy in the third round, but not anywhere near before it. If Jermaine Gresham was in the draft, maybe it would be different...but he isn't. Jared Cook might be a good guy to take a look at if he were to fall. If not, we can basically get the same caliber of blocker at tight end as Pettigrew in Anthony Hill in the 4th or 5th round.

Whiskey bottles...brand new cars...

Anyway, Anthony Hill can't catch. Pettigrew is a great athlete, phenomenal blocker and good pass catching TE. Most complete TE in years, they say.

I think he's more a sure thing than some random safety, pass rusher (they ahve like 4 in Woods, Crable, Redd, Robertson that need to be given a chance), etc.

I could see them drafting Alex Mack too, as Koppen basically sucks at blocking bigger linemen. He could also play guard.

[Crickett]

Originally Posted by hannah73

That's who I think they need. A real TE, instead of an athlete who has cement hands and fights the ball.

I would love to see the Patriots draft a TE in the first round A-G-A-I-N.

And I am a Jets fan. That is all.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by hannah73

Whiskey bottles...brand new cars...

Anyway, Anthony Hill can't catch. Pettigrew is a great athlete, phenomenal blocker and good pass catching TE. Most complete TE in years, they say.

I think he's more a sure thing than some random safety, pass rusher (they ahve like 4 in Woods, Crable, Redd, Robertson that need to be given a chance), etc.

I could see them drafting Alex Mack too, as Koppen basically sucks at blocking bigger linemen. He could also play guard.

I'll take a quick fix for a problem we actually have over one that doesn't exist at the moment any day.

Anthony Hill might not be able to catch, but Pettigrew certainly isn't Tony Gonzalez either. He's not going to stretch defenses or even be an impact player in the passing game. He would put up comparable numbers to Watson, albeit with much better blocking.

As far as drafting some "random" safety goes, it wouldn't be a good move in the first round. There's no value there for it. However in the second round there's guys like Delmas and William Moore to keep an eye on. Both of them could step in and instantly solve the SS problem(although I'm weary of Moore). We do have good depth as far as pass rushing linebackers go, but we would be lucky to have one of those guys pan out and even that is being generous. Besides, despite having all those guys, they did absolutely dick last year. After AT went down, our pass rush was pathetic. A real impact, 8 sack a year guy could really lift us up on only next year, but in the future as well.

Alex Mack wouldn't be the worst pick in the world, but it would be a waste of a first rounder. Koppen isn't the best center in the world and is probably more than a little overrated, but he's good for the team and he he's more than a tick above average as a starter. The right side of our line leaves something to be desired with Neal's injury issues and getting up there in age, but right tackle is the big need at the moment, not right guard. I would rather get a Meredith/Loadholt type rather than Mack if we were to draft an offensive linemen.

[nepg]

I like Pettigrew, and he's a possibility... But there are a lot of good TE's in this draft.
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[TheBuffaloBills]

Prediction: Pettigrew falls to the second round. I think he will come in at the combine, overweight and will run a 4.9 forty.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by TheBuffaloBills

Prediction: Pettigrew falls to the second round. I think he will come in at the combine, overweight and will run a 4.9 forty.

I don't think he'll come in overweight. No reason for him to try to bulk up. He's got a really good body for a tight end(har har har). He's already so damn good as a blocker because of his length and quick feet that he's got no reason to think weight would help him. 4.9 is a bit of a stretch as well. High 4.7's-to mid 4.8's wouldn't be out of the question either.

I don't see him doing much as a receiver at all in the NFL. Too limited from a speed perspective. I also really don't like the fact he assaulted a cop. That's a dirtbag move, no matter what you say. I would really like to avoid that kind of crap on our team. Luckily, he'll probably go before #23 so it won't even be an issue.

[nepg]

I don't think it's a luxury pick to make a vast improvement on your capabilities on offense by drafting a guy like DHB. Once Crabtree, Maclin, and DHB are gone, it's really tough to decipher who the real talent is at WR. Once Kenny Britt's gone (middle of the 2nd round), it's pretty pointless from that point on. The Pats really work best when Gaffney is their 4th guy. Unless they're going to start using Kelley Washington, they need to add someone here.

The talent level at CB is the same from the bottom third of the first round to the middle of the 4th, maybe into the 5th. A ton of parity there - many shades of gray. Outside of Jenkins, Davis, or Moore, I don't see anyone definitely pushing Wilhite or Wheatley down on the depth chart.

I see safety as the biggest need for this team, but if you want to start throwing around free agents, this becomes the most confusing position...

I'd love to see Jim Leonhard and Gerald Sensabaugh on the Pats... Those are two relatively inexpensive, proven, young-ish safeties that fill the needs the Pats have at the position.

There are a few UFA CBs that I like, but I don't see any as real starters: Foxworth, McFadden, Paymah... Big upgrades.

At WR and OT, I really don't see the anything that makes sense for the Pats. Maybe Reggie Williams, Michael Clayton, or Bryant Johnson... But nothing as far as OT's go.

As far as LB's go, the Pats were so injured last year, it's tough to really tell what the need is there. They do need a young ILB, but both Thomas and Vrabel are pretty solid ILB's when they move over. At OLB, they have Woods, Vrabel, and Thomas to go along with Crable (who looked good prior to getting injured and might be able to rotate inside) and Vince Redd (physical/athletic freak)... Gary Guyton should be good for depth... I think they'd have to find a real stud to draft someone...maybe if Maualuga or Cushing falls to #23, slight possibility for Sintim at #48 (though I've given up on them drafting UVA guys). So I really think they'll just pick up another vet FA to fill in where needed at LB...

The Pats have ~$21m in cap space, but have a number of free agents and need to get Seymour and Wilfork extended.

So when you break down the free agents and cap space, it looks like they might have to grab a RT with #23 (J. Smith, Britton or Loadholt) if they really want to upgrade the position. I still think they need to go WR early though (Britt/Nicks at #48?)...
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[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by nepg

I don't think it's a luxury pick to make a vast improvement on your capabilities on offense by drafting a guy like DHB. Once Crabtree, Maclin, and DHB are gone, it's really tough to decipher who the real talent is at WR. Once Kenny Britt's gone (middle of the 2nd round), it's pretty pointless from that point on. The Pats really work best when Gaffney is their 4th guy. Unless they're going to start using Kelley Washington, they need to add someone here.

I agree that it could improve our offense some, but it's still not a direct need. We have two extremely capable receivers in Welker and Moss and the rest of the supporting cast is well above average. I just really think there's bigger needs for us right now and going forward than receiver. It would be nice to have Donte Stallworth back, but we're fine without him or a true #2.

Originally Posted by nepg

The talent level at CB is the same from the bottom third of the first round to the middle of the 4th, maybe into the 5th. A ton of parity there - many shades of gray. Outside of Jenkins, Davis, or Moore, I don't see anyone definitely pushing Wilhite or Wheatley down on the depth chart.

Alphonso Smith is probably a better corner than both Davis and Moore and all three of those guys have a chance to be there when we pick at 23. I would strongly disagree that the talent level is equal from the late first onward at corner. There's a major dropoff after the the second round type guys. Francies, Smith, Butler, Harris, and Mickens are all legit second round possibilities. In a lot of the mocks out there, there's a run on corners starting in the late first. A few of them might slip into the 3rd and while that would be a real good value....do we really want to take that chance? Personally, I'm tired of seeing Hobbs get beat up every other week. We need some help at that position desperately. If we don't come away from draft day with one of those guys, I know I'm not going to be the only person disappointed.

Originally Posted by nepg

I see safety as the biggest need for this team, but if you want to start throwing around free agents, this becomes the most confusing position...

I'd love to see Jim Leonhard and Gerald Sensabaugh on the Pats... Those are two relatively inexpensive, proven, young-ish safeties that fill the needs the Pats have at the position.

I agree that safety is a pretty big need. Rodney Harrison played pretty good last year when he actually played, but he's a free agent and not a healthy one either. His stay in New England is over, IMO. There is a lot to like out there as far as free agent strong safety types go. I'm not really a big fan of Jim Leonhard, too small for my liking, but Gerald Sensabaugh or Sean Jones would make me a happy camper. Both of those guys would be as good if not better options than Chung or Chip Vaughn. I would still probably prefer Delmas is a I had a choice, but if we're not able to land him at a pick that makes sense for us to draft him at, then one of those two would fill the hole nicely.

Originally Posted by nepg

There are a few UFA CBs that I like, but I don't see any as real starters: Foxworth, McFadden, Paymah... Big upgrades.

Foxworth would be an upgrade. I think he would start over Hobbs. Really played well down the stretch against Atalanta. He's probably the best option out there outside of Asomugha if he were to hit the open market, so his price may be inflated.

Originally Posted by nepg

At WR and OT, I really don't see the anything that makes sense for the Pats. Maybe Reggie Williams, Michael Clayton, or Bryant Johnson... But nothing as far as OT's go.

Reggie Williams might be good, but I would be more inclined to go for a speed guy than a bigger receiver, and Reggie really doesn't play up his 40 time.

Originally Posted by nepg

As far as LB's go, the Pats were so injured last year, it's tough to really tell what the need is there. They do need a young ILB, but both Thomas and Vrabel are pretty solid ILB's when they move over. At OLB, they have Woods, Vrabel, and Thomas to go along with Crable (who looked good prior to getting injured and might be able to rotate inside) and Vince Redd (physical/athletic freak)... Gary Guyton should be good for depth... I think they'd have to find a real stud to draft someone...maybe if Maualuga or Cushing falls to #23, slight possibility for Sintim at #48 (though I've given up on them drafting UVA guys). So I really think they'll just pick up another vet FA to fill in where needed at LB...

I would disagree about the young ILB thing. Vrabel and Thomas are more than good enough to keep up for a few more years. The problem is outside. One of Vrabel those two needs to stay inside next year(probably Vrabel) because Bruschi is pretty much done. Guyton looks like he can start down the line, but as of right now, that leads to a lot of questions outside. I love Crable and Redd, but I wouldn't count on them. I would be very uncomfortable going forward with any of Crable, Woods, Redd or Robertson starting next year.
We weren't able to get anything going in the pass rush last year, health issues or not. That made our secondary look even worse than it actually was. I really think we need a Larry English type to get something going off the edge. The guys we have may be good in a couple of years. We need production at that position now, especially if we plan on contending for a title next year.

Originally Posted by nepg

The Pats have ~$21m in cap space, but have a number of free agents and need to get Seymour and Wilfork extended.

Does that include Cassel? Not sure it does. That figure is a bit old.

Originally Posted by nepg

So when you break down the free agents and cap space, it looks like they might have to grab a RT with #23 (J. Smith, Britton or Loadholt) if they really want to upgrade the position. I still think they need to go WR early though (Britt/Nicks at #48?)...

Britton would be nice, but I wouldn't expect Jason Smith(he would make an awful right tackle anyway) to be there and we would be reaching on Loadholt. I would actually love to pick Loadholt, but in the second or third...not the first. RT isn't a dire enough need to pull the trigger on with our first rounder though. Maybe if we pick up an extra pick in that round from the Cassel situation Britton would be nice. Britt wouldn't be a bad selection at #48 assuming we already picked a corner or a linebacker(or both, hopefully) but I still maintain that's a bit of a luxury pick.

[FlyingElvis]

I was thinking Ocho next year, as his contract is through 2010 with an option for 2011. So one more year w/Randy & Wes with fill-in guys like Gaffney and any other guy off the street, basically.


I believe the cap number is correct at 21 million, but that is without Cassel on the roster. If he signs at 14+ million the cap space drops to 7.

[hannah73]

Originally Posted by ElectricEye

I don't think he'll come in overweight. No reason for him to try to bulk up. He's got a really good body for a tight end(har har har). He's already so damn good as a blocker because of his length and quick feet that he's got no reason to think weight would help him. 4.9 is a bit of a stretch as well. High 4.7's-to mid 4.8's wouldn't be out of the question either.

I don't see him doing much as a receiver at all in the NFL. Too limited from a speed perspective. I also really don't like the fact he assaulted a cop. That's a dirtbag move, no matter what you say. I would really like to avoid that kind of crap on our team. Luckily, he'll probably go before #23 so it won't even be an issue.

Well, from what I understand he didn't really "assault a cop". He was dead drunk and he elbowed a cop while being arrested. AGain, not good, but if he doesn't have a drinking problem it may be a one off thing.

He's 6'6" has a great body for shielding defenders and great hands. Don't think you really need that much speed to be a good TE. And he can block really well. So he's kind of like Graham with hands, I suppose.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by hannah73

Well, from what I understand he didn't really "assault a cop". He was dead drunk and he elbowed a cop while being arrested. AGain, not good, but if he doesn't have a drinking problem it may be a one off thing.

He's 6'6" has a great body for shielding defenders and great hands. Don't think you really need that much speed to be a good TE. And he can block really well. So he's kind of like Graham with hands, I suppose.

Eh, I just don't think he's a very natural receiver. We can get basically the same value as a blocker with Anthony Hill and deal with Watson's bad hand until we can draft a legitimate tight end.


Tony Gonzalez wouldn't be a bad guy to take a look at as far as trades go...Not much of a chance of it happening though.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by FlyingElvis

I was thinking Ocho next year, as his contract is through 2010 with an option for 2011. So one more year w/Randy & Wes with fill-in guys like Gaffney and any other guy off the street, basically.


I believe the cap number is correct at 21 million, but that is without Cassel on the roster. If he signs at 14+ million the cap space drops to 7.

Which would pretty much screw us out of a lot of those free agent safeties we should be checking out.

[Don Vito]

Pettigrew is a beast and I love him as a prospect but we have much, much bigger needs on the defensive side of the ball.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by Don Vito

Pettigrew is a beast and I love him as a prospect but we have much, much bigger needs on the defensive side of the ball.

I really think people are starting to lose sight of that a bit.

[nepg]

The need for a TE shouldn't be overlooked either. Both Watson and Thomas are free agents after 2009... Do the Pats want to keep both/either around? This is a deep TE class, and one should be drafted early-on.
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[gpngc]

Originally Posted by nepg

The need for a TE shouldn't be overlooked either. Both Watson and Thomas are free agents after 2009... Do the Pats want to keep both/either around? This is a deep TE class, and one should be drafted early-on.

Plus BB loves TEs.

Draft is not always about plug-n-play by filling "needs".

The Pats can help out the defense in free agency.

This is a team that can win right now- the draft isn't necessarily the place they are going to look in order to fill their "need" areas. It's for building, and sometimes enhancing team strengths- not only helping out "weak" areas, and Pett would be a quality building block.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by nepg

The need for a TE shouldn't be overlooked either. Both Watson and Thomas are free agents after 2009... Do the Pats want to keep both/either around? This is a deep TE class, and one should be drafted early-on.

No, I don't think we want to keep either around. I agree we need to draft a tight end, but I wouldn't be upset just living with Watson despite how frustrating he is as a player. Use the early picks on guys that help us win next year and to reload on defense.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by gpngc

Plus BB loves TEs.

Draft is not always about plug-n-play by filling "needs".

The Pats can help out the defense in free agency.

This is a team that can win right now- the draft isn't necessarily the place they are going to look in order to fill their "need" areas. It's for building, and sometimes enhancing team strengths- not only helping out "weak" areas, and Pett would be a quality building block.

While I agree about the draft not being about filling needs, you don't have an excuse not to exhaust every resource available to fill holes. By that definition, tight end is a need. OLB, CB, and SS are holes. Those can hurt you.

The entire tight end argument is weakened a bit for me about the entire nature of the position as well. Personally, I wouldn't draft a tight end in the first round over a position where you have other needs unless he is a Kellen Winslow type superstar. Pettigrew is more in the Heath Miller range of prospects. Not worth it when you can get a guy who can contribute more at a chink in the armor.

[Bigburt63]

Originally Posted by gpngc

Plus BB loves TEs.

Draft is not always about plug-n-play by filling "needs".

The Pats can help out the defense in free agency.

This is a team that can win right now- the draft isn't necessarily the place they are going to look in order to fill their "need" areas. It's for building, and sometimes enhancing team strengths- not only helping out "weak" areas, and Pett would be a quality building block.

True, but sooner or later some youth needs to be infused on the defense...it started last year, but we have one legitimate safety, some young, although talented, probably not elite #1 types at CB, and the core of our LB corps is old Thomas, Vrable, Bruschi. And if the draft is deep in TE's, then that is even more of a reason to not draft a TE in the first if there are some real talents in the later rounds.

[ElectricEye]

I think James Casey could fit our offense well. Could kind of give us a bit of what Watson was supposed to be. At the very least, he could give us a dependable guy to go to underneath who can make some yards after the catch. We bit on Garrett Mills once. Casey is a rich, rich mans Mills.

[Don Vito]

Originally Posted by ElectricEye

I think James Casey could fit our offense well. Could kind of give us a bit of what Watson was supposed to be. At the very least, he could give us a dependable guy to go to underneath who can make some yards after the catch. We bit on Garrett Mills once. Casey is a rich, rich mans Mills.

I would love to see the Pats go after Casey as early as the third if he were still available. He could be a great weapon for us and like you said he is in the Garrett Mills mold but with a ton more ability. Casey played every position on offense beside the OL at Rice and he could be a huge weapon in our offense.

[ElectricEye]

Originally Posted by Don Vito

I would love to see the Pats go after Casey as early as the third if he were still available. He could be a great weapon for us and like you said he is in the Garrett Mills mold but with a ton more ability. Casey played every position on offense beside the OL at Rice and he could be a huge weapon in our offense.

There's really a few tight ends I could see us going after anywhere after the second round.

Casey would be pretty nasty in our offense. Big time short game guy with the athleticism to do damage after the catch. Chris Cooley isn't a bad comparison for him, except Casey isn't as limited athletically(although he probably won't be as good of a player). He's real strong too. Haven't seen him asked to block much, but I don't think he's offensive in that category either. Either way, I would take that with his kind of abilities as receiver. He's got to get a bit bigger, but he's built pretty solidly and has the frame to put on ten pounds as well.

Shawn Nelson would be the perfect player at tight end for us, but he probably won't be there when we go looking for a tight end. I'm really intrigued by his upside, personally. Nelson is underrated as an athlete, despite being undersized. He has the frame to put on a bit of weight and probably get a bit more explosive as well. He's already an advanced receiver and he's really making strides as a blocker as well. Probably hasn't reached his potential in either aspect of his game.

Anthony Hill and Richard Quinn are guys that I would really like for us to pick up at some point later in the draft. Both of them are dominant in line blockers who could probably help out our running game and big formations significantly. Hill probably has the higher upside of the two because he's still developing as a receiver, but even with that said he probably will never offer much more than a big body on the goaline in that area of his game. He's a good enough blocker to make up for it though. Could be a nice guy to have around. Quinn is pretty much limited to being a blocking specialist even though he's not completely stone legged. He's just not a very natural receiver.

I would be happy if we managed to get one of those guys after getting a corner and a linebacker(perhaps a right tackle as well). Of those four, I think Casey would do the most for us. He would really go along with what we like to do on underneath routes and give Brady another dependable set of hands to throw outlet passes to.

[FlyingElvis]

Which would screw us out of FA safeties - Cassel this year or Ocho next year?

I'd really like to see a S drafted this year anyway. My gut feeling is Seymour may be a casualty next year, or maybe Wilfork. I won't like it, but I don't see them both being re-signed.

Moss is up in 2011, so it would be one year with Moss, Ocho, and Welker . . .

Stop crushing my dreams. lol