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Old 12-29-2008, 10:46 AM    (permalink
Xiomera
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Billick to the Lions doesn't guarantee a switch to the 3-4. Billick always believed that you play a scheme on defense that best fits your personnel.

i don't know enough about the Lions to know what personnel theyre suited for. but Billick could very well keep a Tampa 2 there and build it up.
I will be very pissed if we stick with this garbage Tampa 2 scheme.

I know it's worked with several teams (i.e. Bears), but there's only so many coaches out there who can make it work. I don't see a great coach out there who can run the Tampa 2.

Ron Rivera? I'll definitely pass, thanks.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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I will be very pissed if we stick with this garbage Tampa 2 scheme.

I know it's worked with several teams (i.e. Bears), but there's only so many coaches out there who can make it work. I don't see a great coach out there who can run the Tampa 2.

Ron Rivera? I'll definitely pass, thanks.
How do you know since most of the DC's who might become HC's have never had the authority to decide what defense they perfer?
I'm not saying I love the Cover 2 defense but any defense can be very effective if you have the right personnel to run it. Marinelli only had Millen draft a defensive player with his 1st round pick once while he was Detroit's HC. The rest of the #1 picks were used on offense mostly for WR's. That is just a perfect example of how not to build a defense no matter what system you use.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:55 AM    (permalink
Maybe Next Year Millen2
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I will be very pissed if we stick with this garbage Tampa 2 scheme.

I know it's worked with several teams (i.e. Bears), but there's only so many coaches out there who can make it work. I don't see a great coach out there who can run the Tampa 2.

Ron Rivera? I'll definitely pass, thanks.
I agree, although Rivera ran it well in Chicago and since he has been gone the Bears have taken a step back on D, also do to injuries, losing a nose tackle. I thought Lovie just wanted his guy Babich which is why Rivera was let go.

Yes we have Tampa 2 personnel but they all blow except for Sims,Avril and maybe Redding with a good nose tackle next to him. So since we have to blow up the D anyway, switching schemes isn't that big of deal. Bottom line we need defensive talent badly. This team will never be good without a defense. When they were at least mediocre/good some years in the 90s they at least had a decent defense. Millen never had a team with a good D, on top of offensive busts which is why he failed. Even with a good QB, no defense most likely means missing the playoffs every year. No defense and no offense means 0-16.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:04 AM    (permalink
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How do you know since most of the DC's who might become HC's have never had the authority to decide what defense they perfer?
I'm not saying I love the Cover 2 defense but any defense can be very effective if you have the right personnel to run it. Marinelli only had Millen draft a defensive player with his 1st round pick once while he was Detroit's HC. The rest of the #1 picks were used on offense mostly for WR's. That is just a perfect example of how not to build a defense no matter what system you use.
It's a personal preference. I'd rather run a different scheme.

And as for your question, why would we want a coach running a Tampa 2 that isn't an expert at it already?
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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Marinelli had to get fired, and so does Herm Edwards imo.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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It's a personal preference. I'd rather run a different scheme.

And as for your question, why would we want a coach running a Tampa 2 that isn't an expert at it already?
Ron Rivera just got hired by San Diego to run their 3-4 defense and he managed to get them to the playoffs with 4 straight wins. He came from Chicago's Tampa 2 system.
Our only problem will be having a GM who can assess talent whether it be a talented player or a talented HC. I really don't care what scheme we use, they all work if you have the personnel to run that system.
My only prefertence is winning not the system we employ. If our new GM cannot draft well, it won't matter the system we employ, we'll continue to stink.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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The thing is, it WAS Rods fault for this defense being as awful as it is. Not because of his teaching abilities but ROD made a lot of personnel moves this year. Millen pull the triggerred. But Rod wanted Shaun Rogers gone(because of his attitude) and to replace him Chuck Darby(former Buc), Rod wanted Brian Kelly, Rod wanted Dwight Smith, Rod wanted Ryan Nece. The team is molded how Rod wanted. Small and theoretically fast, but this team isn't very fast. Dizon fits Rods mold but Rod only trusts veterans to Lenons gets the start and Dizon looks like a bust because of his size. DEs, Rod did a decent job but DeWayne White has fallen off in the second half the last 3 years(another former Buc), Avril looks good but seriously needs to bulk up, DeVries is a backup and nothing more. Bullocks can't cover. Gerald Alexander got hurt. Alama Francis could be Rod or Millen but busted. DT was a mess, Redding needs help but when he is by himself he was awful. Rod is just as much to blame in personnel for this year. Plus he put Colletto as OC and Barry as the DC not Millen.
I'm npt trying to say Rod wasn't a part of that. This is no defense for Rod. But let's be honest. We can go back in the annals of Lions draft history here and see what led up to this season.

2001-Backus, Raiola, Shaun Rogers, Scotty Anderson, Mike McMahon, Jason Glenn. All of those guys are either no longer with the team, no longer in the NFL, or could easily be upgraded. Rogers was a good pick, but he's no longer with the team.

2002-Harrington, Kalimba Edwards, Andre Goodman, John Taylor, John Owens, Chris Cash, Luke Staley, Matt Murphy, Victor Rogers. Nine draft picks, not one starter this year.

2003-Charles Rogers, Boss Bailey, Cory Redding, Artose Pinner, Terrence Holt, James Davis, David Kircus, Ben Johnson, Blue Adams, Brandon Drumm, Travis Anglin. One starter from this draft, and it's a guy that needs a stud next to him to be effective

2004-Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, Teddy Lehman, Keith Smith, Alex Lewis, Kelly Butler. One starter, and let's be honest, Alex Lewis should not be a starter.

2005-Mike Williams, Shaun Cody, Stanley Wilson, Dan Orlovsky, Bill Swancutt, Johnathan Goddard. Basically nothing.

2006-Ernie Sims, Daniel Bullocks, Brian Calhoun, Jonathan Scott, Dee McCann, Fred Matua, Anthony Cannon. Two starters. Bullocks has been decent. Sims is athletic, but he hasn't played well this year. He overpursues everything. If he doesn't learn to play within a defense, he's never going to live up to his draft position.

We really can't judge the last two drafts yet, but there aren't a ton of guys in either one that really look all that good.

Again, I'm not defending Rod. He should have been fired. But no coach that comes in is going to be successful with the complete lack of NFL talent on the roster. The entire front office should have been fired as well. Unless the roster is completely turned over, this team is not going to be any more successful next year or any other year than it was this year, and it doesn't matter who the coach is next year.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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We really can't judge the last two drafts yet, but there aren't a ton of guys in either one that really look all that good.
I'll take Calvin off of your hands if he doesn't really look all that good to you. He looks all that good to me, lol.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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I'm npt trying to say Rod wasn't a part of that. This is no defense for Rod. But let's be honest. We can go back in the annals of Lions draft history here and see what led up to this season.

2001-Backus, Raiola, Shaun Rogers, Scotty Anderson, Mike McMahon, Jason Glenn. All of those guys are either no longer with the team, no longer in the NFL, or could easily be upgraded. Rogers was a good pick, but he's no longer with the team.

2002-Harrington, Kalimba Edwards, Andre Goodman, John Taylor, John Owens, Chris Cash, Luke Staley, Matt Murphy, Victor Rogers. Nine draft picks, not one starter this year.

2003-Charles Rogers, Boss Bailey, Cory Redding, Artose Pinner, Terrence Holt, James Davis, David Kircus, Ben Johnson, Blue Adams, Brandon Drumm, Travis Anglin. One starter from this draft, and it's a guy that needs a stud next to him to be effective

2004-Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, Teddy Lehman, Keith Smith, Alex Lewis, Kelly Butler. One starter, and let's be honest, Alex Lewis should not be a starter.

2005-Mike Williams, Shaun Cody, Stanley Wilson, Dan Orlovsky, Bill Swancutt, Johnathan Goddard. Basically nothing.

2006-Ernie Sims, Daniel Bullocks, Brian Calhoun, Jonathan Scott, Dee McCann, Fred Matua, Anthony Cannon. Two starters. Bullocks has been decent. Sims is athletic, but he hasn't played well this year. He overpursues everything. If he doesn't learn to play within a defense, he's never going to live up to his draft position.

We really can't judge the last two drafts yet, but there aren't a ton of guys in either one that really look all that good.

Again, I'm not defending Rod. He should have been fired. But no coach that comes in is going to be successful with the complete lack of NFL talent on the roster. The entire front office should have been fired as well. Unless the roster is completely turned over, this team is not going to be any more successful next year or any other year than it was this year, and it doesn't matter who the coach is next year.
I agree. The only thing I blame Marinelli for is remaining quiet while Millen flushed him down the drain by continuing to draft offensive players with his #1 pick. It showed me he wasn't cut out to be a HC but the blame for this mess rests squarely on WCF and Millen's shoulders. This team was a disaster just waiting to happen. Of course Millen Hired Marinelli because he knew Marinelli was the good solder who wouldn't criticize him publicly. After Mooch Millen wanted a HC who would remain loyal.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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I'm npt trying to say Rod wasn't a part of that. This is no defense for Rod. But let's be honest. We can go back in the annals of Lions draft history here and see what led up to this season.

2001-Backus, Raiola, Shaun Rogers, Scotty Anderson, Mike McMahon, Jason Glenn. All of those guys are either no longer with the team, no longer in the NFL, or could easily be upgraded. Rogers was a good pick, but he's no longer with the team.

2002-Harrington, Kalimba Edwards, Andre Goodman, John Taylor, John Owens, Chris Cash, Luke Staley, Matt Murphy, Victor Rogers. Nine draft picks, not one starter this year.

2003-Charles Rogers, Boss Bailey, Cory Redding, Artose Pinner, Terrence Holt, James Davis, David Kircus, Ben Johnson, Blue Adams, Brandon Drumm, Travis Anglin. One starter from this draft, and it's a guy that needs a stud next to him to be effective

2004-Roy Williams, Kevin Jones, Teddy Lehman, Keith Smith, Alex Lewis, Kelly Butler. One starter, and let's be honest, Alex Lewis should not be a starter.

2005-Mike Williams, Shaun Cody, Stanley Wilson, Dan Orlovsky, Bill Swancutt, Johnathan Goddard. Basically nothing.

2006-Ernie Sims, Daniel Bullocks, Brian Calhoun, Jonathan Scott, Dee McCann, Fred Matua, Anthony Cannon. Two starters. Bullocks has been decent. Sims is athletic, but he hasn't played well this year. He overpursues everything. If he doesn't learn to play within a defense, he's never going to live up to his draft position.

We really can't judge the last two drafts yet, but there aren't a ton of guys in either one that really look all that good.

Again, I'm not defending Rod. He should have been fired. But no coach that comes in is going to be successful with the complete lack of NFL talent on the roster. The entire front office should have been fired as well. Unless the roster is completely turned over, this team is not going to be any more successful next year or any other year than it was this year, and it doesn't matter who the coach is next year.
Agreed we need better personnel bottomline. A good experienced coach with heavy input on personnel might help. But also we do need better coaches because Marinelli and his staff were not good coaches either. Millen pretty much did what he wanted until this year when he made moves Marinelli wanted. Both Millens moves and Marinellis moves were epic failures.

Technically we do have a new GM from last offseason. Problem is Mayhew has the stink of Millen on him. However, Millen had the final say in all football decisions so I won't penalize Mayhew for that. I'll give him a chance but I won't expect much from another inexperienced GM. Who knows maybe he disagreed with Millen on some of the picks and Millen just did what he wanted.

It's a collective effort as well. We'll see if we change any other scouts or pro personnel other than the one other change we made. Plus we'll see how much input the head coach has on personnel decisions as well. So far Mayhew has made 2 moves. One great move on a trade for Roy and he picked up Daunte for cheap and now has the option to release him for nothing. I don't expect much so anything he does will suprise me. The head coach decision is the most crucial.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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September 25, FoxSports.com: Last week I was at the same college football game as the best general manager in professional football, Indy's Bill Polian. At halftime of the Kansas State-Louisville game, I picked Polian's brain about young GM prospects. To my great surprise he was extremely high on Mayhew, who was just promoted to assistant GM in Detroit.
Polian is convinced that Mayhew has a deep understanding of personnel and a tremendous work ethic. Mayhew was one of only four guys Polian identified as a future GM.

If you don't know, Polian built the Buffalo Bills Super Bowl teams, the Carolina Panthers team that advanced to the Super Bowl and, of course, the Indianapolis Colts squad that won it all. He knows what it takes to build a winner.

http://blog.mlive.com/highlightreel/2008/09/

Wow, thats suprising. Polian likes Mayhew at least.
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Old 12-29-2008, 11:51 AM    (permalink
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Some background on Mayhew.

http://www.detroitlions.com/bio.cfm?...vel=2&season=0
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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I as up in the air about Mayhew as everyone but there are a few things that he has done that impress me.
A. The R.Williams trade was fantastic and he held firm on his demands until Jerry Jones caved. That trade just got better last night.
B. The report that Mayhew has already traveled more to see draft prospects than Millen did in his entire tenure. This proves that he would rather see potential talent first hand as opposed to hearing about it from someone else.
I am not defending the promotion at all but I'll hold judgement off for now. Obviously I would have liked some interviews held but this is what we are stuck with now because of a braindead owner so I'll just remain hopeful.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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There really aren't many good front seven players on the Lions, so scheme isn't a huge issue, but Ernie Sims is probably their best and he's completely ill-suited to play in a 3-4.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Lions are interviewing Jerry Gray, which is unfortunately a completely token hire. Ironic too considering the Lions GM is black.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Anyone think there's a chance Spagnuolo comes to Detroit?

He's on the top of my list without giving this much thought . . . but I don't think he'd come here.
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Old 12-29-2008, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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Lions are interviewing Jerry Gray, which is unfortunately a completely token hire. Ironic too considering the Lions GM is black.
Gray, former DC of the Bills. Yeah probably a token interview, but you never know with the Lions.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Anyone think there's a chance Spagnuolo comes to Detroit?

He's on the top of my list without giving this much thought . . . but I don't think he'd come here.
I think the first thing you have to consider when thinking of candidates is if they'll have any other options as a head coach. If they do, they aren't coming to the Lions.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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I think the first thing you have to consider when thinking of candidates is if they'll have any other options as a head coach. If they do, they aren't coming to the Lions.
Not true. If given the choice between the Raiders job or the Lions job, I think they'd pick the Lions.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Ron Rivera actually started out under Jim Johnson, so I'm not sure you can really peg him down as anything.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:16 PM    (permalink
Maybe Next Year Millen2
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I think the first thing you have to consider when thinking of candidates is if they'll have any other options as a head coach. If they do, they aren't coming to the Lions.
Very true unfortunately right now with 0-16 a mere day ago and coaches used as scape goats instead of front office. Input into personnel and money should be the ultimate deciding factor though.

Jets/Browns/Rams/Lions/Raiders.

Jets and Browns are 3-4 teams but could be converted at least in some parts of the defenses. Both are better options but we'll see who the GM is of the Browns. Interviewing Pioli so I don't know about Spags in Cleveland. Jets have to convert which is possible. Could stay in New York, but less personnel input with Tannebaum but probably a good chunk of money.

Rams and Lions. Rams are losing Pace, but have Steven Jackson(when healthy), Atogwe, Witherspoon,Chris Long/Carriker to build around and a decent QB in Bulger, who just got a pretty big contract. Lions have Calvin,Kevin Smith,Ernie Sims,Avril? and some extra draft picks. Similar cities, Detroit probably worse off though due to industry in area but still nice areas in some suburbs of each city. Rams more to build around especially on D but money and personnel input is probably the biggest factors.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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Ron Rivera actually started out under Jim Johnson, so I'm not sure you can really peg him down as anything.

Yeah, I was going to say something earlier but I wasn't sure. He started under Johnson's blitz happy 4-3 scheme, moved to Lovie's Tampa 2, and is now the head of a 3-4 defense in SD.

He could probably coach whichever the personnel where he goes is best suited for.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Lions should hire Rich Rodriguez. It will be a sacrificial move to spare the University of Michigan of further shame and losing.
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Lions should hire Rich Rodriguez. It will be a sacrificial move to spare the University of Michigan of further shame and losing.
That state needs at least one winner in football....
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Old 12-29-2008, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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That state needs at least one winner in football....
for the sake of my sanity, indeed.
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