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Old 01-02-2009, 03:12 PM    (permalink
Paranoidmoonduck
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I think one could have made a stronger case for Phillip Rivers, but I think worse choices could have been made than Manning.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by HinesWardJr View Post
I think Warner would've won it if his team didn't tank the rest of the season. Brees could've won if he defense wasn't **** all season.
True. I personally don't like the connection of MVP to wins and losses. I think any evaluation of an individual player has to remove team considerations as much as logically possible. If the player has produced the best statistically and is the most valuable player to the team's production, I consider that player my MVP. However, my preferred definition is not the definition that is used. The definition that is used seems to be stats + wins, with a bias towards QBs. According to that definition, Peyton was a good choice.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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True. I personally don't like the connection of MVP to wins and losses. I think any evaluation of an individual player has to remove team considerations as much as logically possible. If the player has produced the best statistically and is the most valuable player to the team's production, I consider that player my MVP. However, my preferred definition is not the definition that is used. The definition that is used seems to be stats + wins, with a bias towards QBs. According to that definition, Peyton was a good choice.
I agree 100% which is why this outcome was clearly seen for the past few weeks (just not at that margin of victory)

That's why Warner and Brees dropped out of the discussion. Team compiled losses down the stretch.

People will say their play tailed off, but wins and losses are a big part of the formula period.

I mean when you look at how Rivers didn't get a single vote, that should be clear
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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What about Turner's first game against TB, his first game against CAR, his game against CHI, against PHI or against NO
Exactly the same as Peyton's crappy games, imo. Ergo, they should have been much closer in the voting.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Of course, Michael Turner started the season playing 4 out of 7 games not at an MVP level. Just like Peyton did 5 out of 7

Philip Rivers has had his inconsistent moments as well.

Turner and Manning both finished with as many games that were not at an MVP level. Rivers had fewer sub par games than them both.


That's why the race should have been close. When you give a guy like Peyton Manning MVP by such a margin, you're basically saying he was as heads and shoulders above every else in the league with some of the most legendary MVP seasons of all-time. That is a complete lie.

He was not 2007 Brady. Hell Manning was more deserving of winning in this landslide margin the year he was Co-MVP over this season
But if they gave it to the right person is doesn't matter the marjin.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE STOP SAYING HE DIDNT DO NOTHING THE FIRST 7 GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!! DOES ANYONE REALIZE THEY WON 3 OF THOSE GAMES???????/ SO HE LOST 4 GAMES THIS SEASON ??? AND RIVERS LOST 8??? AND TURNER LOST 5??? SO DO WE EXCUSE TURNER AND RIVERS FOR THERE LOSES???? COME ON GUYS HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE
I think it's funny that Peyton Manning Single-handedly wins his teams games, but the defense/ST's lose the games for them.


Meanwhile Rivers led a team with less talent (And yes LT was injured the entire season and their defense was nothing special)

He took a team that had a losing record to start the season and drove them "Singlehandedly" to the playoffs.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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But if they gave it to the right person is doesn't matter the marjin.
The point of being upset about the margin is because there is clearly more than one right choice.

That's the whole point. When someone wins something in a landslide they are the cosensus winner.

The fact that Manning is the consensus winner is the problem. His season was not dominant over the other players to justify him getting so many more votes than other candidates. We're not arguing 2nd and 3rd place votes, we're arguing why he had a monopoly on the 1st place votes

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Old 01-02-2009, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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I think it's funny that Peyton Manning Single-handedly wins his teams games, but the defense/ST's lose the games for them.


Meanwhile Rivers led a team with less talent (And yes LT was injured the entire season and their defense was nothing special)

He took a team that had a losing record to start the season and drove them "Singlehandedly" to the playoffs.
And how terrible could the Colts defense really be if it was 7th in the league in Scoring D and was comprised of two Pro Bowlers?

I mean on paper the Colts defense did BETTER than some of the other candidates in the race like Turner, Rivers, etc.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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But if they gave it to the right person is doesn't matter the marjin.
I think it speaks volumes about the legitimacy of the award. It shows how biased the voters are towards QBs - prefferably big name QBs. It also shows the spineless and pathetic nature of the voters.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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i dont see why you guys think there shouldnt be a landslide like i said before im sure people considered picking rivers or whoever you think should of won but they realized who really deserved it and he got it lol
Because a landslide is almost analyzed as that player being so superior it wasn't even close.

but the fact was... Co-Mvps, or a +/- 1 or 2 should've been the margin because a lot of guys played just as good as Manning.

Manning may have been deserving as he was "The best of a bad season" So-to speak but, the fact they didn't even consider anyone else with the voting is appaling.

If Manning's season was had by ANYONE other than Peyton Manning I would go as far to say he wouldn't get a vote.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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I think it's funny that Peyton Manning Single-handedly wins his teams games, but the defense/ST's lose the games for them.


Meanwhile Rivers led a team with less talent (And yes LT was injured the entire season and their defense was nothing special)

He took a team that had a losing record to start the season and drove them "Singlehandedly" to the playoffs.
rivers didnt single handedly do nothing the broncos singlehandedly gave the chargers the playoffs lol im done with this convo because im tired of defending my 2 most hated player in the league when i dont have to he won he deserved it he is in the playoffs because of him and not because they slid in
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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And how terrible could the Colts defense really be if it was 7th in the league in Scoring D and was comprised of two Pro Bowlers?

I mean on paper the Colts defense did BETTER than some of the other candidates in the race like Turner, Rivers, etc.
Yeah Colts only sent 1 defensive player less than the Pittsburgh Steelers did to the Pro-Bowl.


I completely agree. Manning may or may not deserved to win it but the award is losing any semblence of meaning now.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Because a landslide is almost analyzed as that player being so superior it wasn't even close.

but the fact was... Co-Mvps, or a +/- 1 or 2 should've been the margin because a lot of guys played just as good as Manning.

Manning may have been deserving as he was "The best of a bad season" So-to speak but, the fact they didn't even consider anyone else with the voting is appaling.

If Manning's season was had by ANYONE other than Peyton Manning I would go as far to say he wouldn't get a vote.
And I'd got to as far as to say if other candidates had bigger names they would have without question won even over Manning.

What if Michael Turner was LaDainian Tomlinson and went to Atlanta?

What if Chad Pennington was Brett Favre and did what he did?

I guarantee you those guys would have won over Manning and/or it would have been one of the closest races ever
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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rivers didnt single handedly do nothing the broncos singlehandedly gave the chargers the playoffs lol im done with this convo because im tired of defending my 2 most hated player in the league when i dont have to he won he deserved it he is in the playoffs because of him and not because they slid in
HAHAHA....

And the Lions Singlehandedly tanked against the colts.

And the Browns singlehandedly gave up playing against teh Colts.

Rivers also would've had the Chargers in earlier if Hochuli didn't single handedly allow Denver to come back in one of the most erroneous calls this league has seen.

See what I did there?
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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And I'd got to as far as to say if other candidates had bigger names they would have without question won even over Manning.

What if Michael Turner was LaDainian Tomlinson and went to Atlanta?

What if Chad Pennington was Brett Favre and did what he did?

I guarantee you those guys would have won over Manning and/or it would have been one of the closest races ever
please stop saying chad pennington he wasnt even close imo i can agree and say manning rivers and turner but pennington?? come on now thats just ridiculous
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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I havent read this whole thing, and I am a Colts fan so I dont want to massively get into it as my opinion wouldnt be the most listened to, but am I seeing people compare the Colts D to the Steelers?! Also, since when has the pro bowl predicated how good a D is? That is all for now.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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And I'd got to as far as to say if other candidates had bigger names they would have without question won even over Manning.

What if Michael Turner was LaDainian Tomlinson and went to Atlanta?

What if Chad Pennington was Brett Favre and did what he did?

I guarantee you those guys would have won over Manning and/or it would have been one of the closest races ever
Warner and Rivers seasons statistically mirrored Manning (And Warner did it with Less of a Running game and a worse defense) and I don't think he even got a vote.

Brees did it with less help at WR (Didn't they have like 16 players IR'd?) RB and was only the second man to eclipse 5k?

Yet they weren't even in consideration of the voters minds.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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HAHAHA....

And the Lions Singlehandedly tanked against the colts.

And the Browns singlehandedly gave up playing against teh Colts.

Rivers also would've had the Chargers in earlier if Hochuli didn't single handedly allow Denver to come back in one of the most erroneous calls this league has seen.

See what I did there?
They didn't. they rallied hard and our ST's sucked something awful that night, 2 muffed punts etc...
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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please stop saying chad pennington he wasnt even close imo i can agree and say manning rivers and turner but pennington?? come on now thats just ridiculous
Again, Haha, Why not?

Pennington singlehandedly took a team from 1-15 to 11-5 and the playoffs.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES View Post
rivers didnt single handedly do nothing the broncos singlehandedly gave the chargers the playoffs lol im done with this convo because im tired of defending my 2 most hated player in the league when i dont have to he won he deserved it he is in the playoffs because of him and not because they slid in
So Rivers didnt do anything in the game? what the **** kind of **** are you talking about? I was going to stay out of this but when i see someone say something stupid like this i have to say something, so stop talking out of your ass.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES View Post
please stop saying chad pennington he wasnt even close imo i can agree and say manning rivers and turner but pennington?? come on now thats just ridiculous
You don't think if Brett Favre the ultimate media darling took a 1-15 team to 11-5 he would have gotten serious consideration for MVP?

Im not talking about merit, IM talking about name recognition and how the media operates.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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They didn't. they rallied hard and our ST's sucked something awful that night, 2 muffed punts etc...
...it's the FREAKIN LIONS.

My point was merely illustrating the massively tough Schedule Manning singlehandedly won.

But don't forget, we ignore the first 7 games of every season.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Mr. Stiller View Post
HAHAHA....

And the Lions Singlehandedly tanked against the colts.

And the Browns singlehandedly gave up playing against teh Colts.

Rivers also would've had the Chargers in earlier if Hochuli didn't single handedly allow Denver to come back in one of the most erroneous calls this league has seen.

See what I did there?
see thats what im saying you want to single handedly give it to rivers but dont want to do the same for manning why is that?? i dont understand what rivers has done over manning or what turner has done over manning?? manning has played better in more games than them he has been ridiculous in the past 9 games hes the MVP and instead of saying congrats you say non deserving because rivers went 8-8 and his def been bad and no running game blah blah blah when manning has been winning every year with the same no running game and a not so good def. i mean yea he won by a landslide lol i just dont see you making this argument if it was rivers who won by a landslide
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Just let it go RWO.
We as Ravens fans are clearly scum of the earth, and should just be happy that these great people, who cheer for nothing than the finest, morally impeccable players, playing on the finest, most morally impeccable teams, will grace us with their presence, and words of wisdom.

John Wall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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see thats what im saying you want to single handedly give it to rivers but dont want to do the same for manning why is that?? i dont understand what rivers has done over manning or what turner has done over manning?? manning has played better in more games than them he has been ridiculous in the past 9 games hes the MVP and instead of saying congrats you say non deserving because rivers went 8-8 and his def been bad and no running game blah blah blah when manning has been winning every year with the same no running game and a not so good def. i mean yea he won by a landslide lol i just dont see you making this argument if it was rivers who won by a landslide
Actually that's not true.

Manning has had 6 games that were not at an MVP level
Turner has had 5-6
Rivers has had 4

It should not be such a unanimous vote not even close.
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bantx View Post
So Rivers didnt do anything in the game? what the **** kind of **** are you talking about? I was going to stay out of this but when i see someone say something stupid like this i have to say something, so stop talking out of your ass.
yea i was being sacastic with that so calm down tough guy dont get all internet crazy on me
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Originally Posted by SunTzu_22 View Post
Just let it go RWO.
We as Ravens fans are clearly scum of the earth, and should just be happy that these great people, who cheer for nothing than the finest, morally impeccable players, playing on the finest, most morally impeccable teams, will grace us with their presence, and words of wisdom.

John Wall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4CbQGBbUOw
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