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Old 01-07-2009, 03:56 AM    (permalink
boknows34
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Default 2009 Hall of Fame - Finalists announced

The 17 finalists for election on Jan 31st are:

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...?story_id=3071


Cris Carter Wide Receiver 1987-89 Philadelphia Eagles, 1990-2001 Minnesota Vikings, 2002 Miami Dolphins
Dermontti Dawson Center 1988-2000 Pittsburgh Steelers
Richard Dent Defensive End 1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles
Russ Grimm Guard 1981-1991 Washington Redskins
Bob Hayes Wide Receiver 1965-1974 Dallas Cowboys, 1975 San Francisco 49ers
Claude Humphrey Defensive End 1968-1978 Atlanta Falcons, 1979-1981 Philadelphia Eagles
Cortez Kennedy Defensive Tackle 1990-2000 Seattle Seahawks
Bob Kuechenberg Guard 1970-1984 Miami Dolphins
Randall McDaniel Guard 1988-1999 Minnesota Vikings, 2000-01 Tampa Bay Buccaneers
John Randle Defensive Tackle 1990-2000 Minnesota Vikings, 2001-03 Seattle Seahawks
Andre Reed Wide Receiver 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000 Washington Redskins
Shannon Sharpe Tight End 1990-99, 2002-03 Denver Broncos, 2000-01 Baltimore Ravens
Bruce Smith Defensive End 1985-1999 Buffalo Bills, 2000-03 Washington Redskins
Paul Tagliabue Commissioner 1989-2006 National Football League
Derrick Thomas Linebacker 1989-1999 Kansas City Chiefs
Ralph Wilson Team Founder/Owner 1960-Present Buffalo Bills
Rod Woodson Cornerback/Safety 1987-1996 Pittsburgh Steelers, 1997 San Francisco 49ers, 1998-2001 Baltimore Ravens, 2002-03 Oakland Raiders


Just a few points and observations I'd like to make.

1. A well represented 1st time eligible class with Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson, Shannon Sharpe and John Randle. Smith and Woodson will be elected. Sharpe and Randle will have to wait but it bodes well for their future chances that they have marched into the Last 15 on the first occasion.

2. Ray Guy is the only eligible finalist from last year not to make the cut this time. Cortez Kennedy replaces him. I have mixed feelings on Ray Guy. You can say he was clearly the best punter of his era and arguably of all-time when he retired in 1986 so he deserves to be elected. On the flipside he was a part-time player who only saw the field 5 times per game. That alone will make his election a struggle when compared to full-time players. Tasker has the same problem as Guy but is only at the start of his journey.

There has only ever been one pure specialist elected ever (Jan Stenerud) and he was a kicker, a position that holds a lot more pressure on your shoulders with game-winning kicks. Stenerud has knocked down the HOF door for other kickers in the future.

Guy's numbers are overshadowed by today's punters. His best season was his rookie year of 45.3 yds. Never again did he average 44 yds in a season and he finished with a career 42.4 avg. In comparison Shane Lechler's career average is 46.8 yds, higher than Guy's best ever individual season. In fact Lechler has averaged at least 45.9 yds in 8 of his 9 seasons. Compare that to Guy's career season best of 45.3 yds and you ghave a strong case that Guy isn't even the best Raiders punter ever. Both of them have been named All-Pro 3 times but Lechler has plenty of chances to add to his honours and is clearly in a stronger era.

Guy has only two more chances as a modern-era candidate before his name drops off the list after the Class of 2011. He would then have to rely on being nominated by the vets committee. This would be his best chance of getting elected as the two vets are not in direct competition with the 15 modern era candidates on election day. That 'direct competition' for me is a big sticking point for the voters. They won't elect a punter over a full-time running back or linebacker.

3. Ralph Wilson rejoins the finalist list for the first time since 2003. Could be an effort to get him elected before he dies but it's not going to work. He won't make the first cut on election day. Tagliabue won't make it either. It took Pete Rozelle, the best commissioner in the history of US sports, 8 times as a finalist before he got elected. Tags will have to wait a while, especially with the last CBA unravelling so quickly.

4. Last chance saloon for Bob Kuechenberg before he drops off the modern-era list. There could be a one final push for his supporters to get him elected.

5. The 10 semi-finalists not to make it this time were:

Roger Craig
Terrell Davis
Chris Doleman
Kevin Greene
Ray Guy
Charles Haley
Lester Hayes
Art Modell
Ken Stabler
Steve Tasker

6. Bruce Smith, Rod Woodson and Cris Carter should be certs. Humphrey and Hayes hopefully will get elected too as the vets.That leaves two other spots for the modern era candidates (max of 5 modern era. Each class is a max of 7 with the 2 vets.)

Richard Dent, Derrick Thomas and Russ Grimm have each got this far four times before so will have a good shout. Dent and Thomas appear to be the next defenders in line. I think one will get elected and the other will have to wait as I can see an offensive lineman getting the nod. Its a long list with Kooch, Grimm, McDaniel, and Dawson. Kooch may be a sentimental choice but if I was voting on who was the best out of that foursome it would be McDaniel.

Humphrey, Hayes, Smith, Woodson, Carter, McDaniel and either one of Dent/Thomas is my predicted class of 2009.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:07 AM    (permalink
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Still no Jerry Kramer?
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:32 AM    (permalink
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Carter, Randle, and especially Randall McDaniel need to be in.

McDaniel made 12 straight Pro Bowls and was the best guard in football for years.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...M/McDaRa00.htm

One of the most underrated players in NFL history.

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So, last week was the Pro Football (read: NFL) Hall of Fame induction ceremony, and Hall of Fame game. Inducted this year were Redskins Art Monk and Darrell Green, coach and player Emmitt Thomas, Patriot Andre Tippett, Viking/Bronco Gary Zimmerman, and probably the original pass rush specialist Fred Dean.

But, as it seems like every year, there were players who many felt should have gotten in, but didn't. Topping this years list for most people was wide receiver Cris Carter--who many felt was only made to wait so Monk could get in before him (despite Carter being better than Monk or Michael Irvin, who was somehow inducted last year in his first year of eligibility).

However, at the top of my Hall of Fame Snub List--for the second year in a row--was Viking guard Randall McDaniel.

McDaniel was a first round pick of the Vikings in 1988 out of Arizona State. He stepped into the lineup almost immediately, starting 15 of 16 games his rookie season, and in his second season started a string of 12 consecutive Pro Bowl appearances. His third season started a string of nine consecutive All-Pro selections (seven first team, according to Pro-Football-Reference.com), and the probably the only reason he wasn't on both the NFL 1980's All Decade Team and the 1990's All Decade Team (Zimmerman was the only player on both teams) was due to his being drafted so late in the 80's.

McDaniel was also known for his strange stance, in which his left foot was dropped back with his ankle almost touching the ground, which he developed in the result of a knee injury in his second season, and for moving into the Vikings backfield in goal line situations (although from my memory, they only handed him the ball twice, and threw to him once--either an incompletion or it was called back--although he did finally score with the Buccaneers in 2000).

Also of note was that after missing two games in his second season, he did not miss a game in his career--from 1990 to 2001 he started 202 consecutive games. Even more impressive, in that time frame, he didn't even miss a practive. Hell, I remember reading at one point during his time in Minnesota that he went something like three seasons without missing a blocking assignment on a play.

And, to top it off, he wasn't an attention hungry star--he did his job, kept his mouth shut, and led the team by example, rather than through the media.

That he didn't make the Hall of Fame in 2007, his first year of eligibility, was shocking. That he didn't even make the finalists list should have been the biggest sign to date that the selection process is SEVERELY flawed. That he didn't make the cut again in 2008 is just further proof of that--although at least he made the finalists list in 2008. If he doesn't make it in 2009, they might as well close the damn place.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:38 AM    (permalink
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Also, sometimes you need to look past the stats. Ray Guy sacrificed distance for hang time and rarely even had his punts returned. He was also a tremendous coffin corner punter.

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Joe Horrigan, the historian of the Pro Football Hall of Fame once said: "He's the first punter you could look at and say: 'He won games.'"

At the 1976 Pro Bowl, Ray Guy became the first punter to hit the Louisiana Superdome video screen. Officials raised the screen from 90 feet to 200 feet.

Ray Guy was known for punts with a high hang time; he once punted the ball with so much hangtime that the opponents pulled the ball and had it tested for helium. The hangtime statistic was also instituted in the NFL during his time, probably because of him. On April 21, 2008 Guy was inducted into the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame (BASHOF).
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Played in 207 consecutive games
Punted 1,049 times for 44,493 yards, averaging 42.4 yards per punt, with a 33.8 net yards average
Had 210 punts inside the 20 yard line (not counting his first 3 seasons, when the NFL did not keep track of this stat), with just 128 touchbacks
Led the NFL in punting three times
Had a streak of 619 consecutive punts before having one blocked
Has a record of 111 career punts in post season games
Had five punts of over 60 yards during the 1981 season
Never had a punt returned for a touchdown
Just a stupid tidbit that I'm sharing, the only punt he ever had blocked was by the Vikings in the Super Bowl and they fumbled the ball back to the Raiders on the next play, effectively crapping their pants and giving all the momentum to the Raiders. Oakland won 32-14.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:00 AM    (permalink
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Still no Jerry Kramer?
How he hasn't made it I'll never know. He needs to get selected first by the vets committee who make their two selections in August each year. Claude Humphrey and Bob Hayes were the selections for the 2009 Class.

http://www.footballdiner.com/nfljerrykramer.html

''The 5 time All-Pro, member of the 1960s All-Decade Team, member of the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team, and member of the Green Bay Packers' Hall of Fame has appeared on the list of finalists 10 times since becoming eligible, but has yet to be inducted to the Hall. He's been snubbed each time.''
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:19 AM    (permalink
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I'm so happy about Cortez making the finalists.. He was such a dominant force at DT.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:23 AM    (permalink
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PLEASE let this be the year for DT
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:27 AM    (permalink
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Guy had 210 punts inside the 20 yard line (not counting his first 3 seasons, when the NFL did not keep track of this stat), with just 128 touchbacks.

* Those numbers are still nowhere near as good as today's punters. 210-128 is not even a 2-1 ratio. In 2008 Brad Maynard forced 27 fair catches and had 40 punts 'Inside the 20' compared to just 5 touchbacks. An 8-1 ratio. Michael Koenan had 27 fair catches, 25 punts inside the 20 and only 4 touchbacks from 63 punts this season. Koenan only had 20 of his 63 punts returned for 49 yds. I know punt coverage units today are much better but that's very, very impressive.

Led the NFL in punting three times.

* Rohn Stark and Shane Lechler have also since done it 3 times. Jerrell Wilson won two AFL and two NFL punting titles (three of them over 45yds) from the same era. Guy's averages when he led the NFL in punting were 42.2, 43.8 and 43.3. He would barely crack the Top 20 for 2008 with his 43.8. Lechler's NET average of 41.2 this year was almost as good as Guy's GROSS averages when he led the NFL.

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Old 01-07-2009, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by boknows34 View Post
Guy had 210 punts inside the 20 yard line (not counting his first 3 seasons, when the NFL did not keep track of this stat), with just 128 touchbacks.

* Those numbers are still nowhere near as good as today's punters. 210-128 is not even a 2-1 ratio. In 2008 Brad Maynard forced 27 fair catches and had 40 punts 'Inside the 20' compared to just 5 touchbacks. An 8-1 ratio. Michael Koenan had 27 fair catches, 25 punts inside the 20 and only 4 touchbacks from 63 punts this season. Koenan only had 20 of his 63 punts returned for 49 yds. I know punt coverage units today are much better but that's very, very impressive.

Led the NFL in punting three times.

* Rohn Stark and Shane Lechler have also since done it 3 times. Jerrell Wilson won two AFL and two NFL punting titles (three of them over 45yds) from the same era. Guy's averages when he led the NFL in punting were 42.2, 43.8 and 43.3. He would barely crack the Top 20 for 2008 with his 43.8. Lechler's NET average of 41.2 this year was almost as good as Guy's GROSS averages when he led the NFL.
I know Guy was a great punter but until more offensive lineman and defensive players get in no special teamer should get in.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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I hope Derrick Thomas gets in.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:47 AM    (permalink
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Is there still only 6 players elected every year? Hasn't it been that way for a long time? There are more teams and players in the league now than there were 20 years ago and therefore should be more than slots per year for the HoF. Not that I really care much. I don't like the politics of the HoF.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Last year's class was horrible. Giving more slots would only make the HOF even more diluted.

I still couldn't believe that Cris Carter and Derrick Thomas didn't make it against last year's other candidates.
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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In a totally unrelated topic, I thought Fred Dean's HOF acceptance speech last year was excellent.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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I hope Sharpe gets in on his first try, he was one of the best TE's the game has ever seen and absolutely dominated.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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lol woodson and sharpe thats whats up two big parts to our superbowl win
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Chris Carter definately needs to be in

1101 Receptions (3rd All-Time)
13899 Rec. Yds. (7th All-Time)
130 Rec. TD (4th All-Time)
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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hayes needs to get in
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:27 PM    (permalink
SeanTaylorRIP
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Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
I hope Sharpe gets in on his first try, he was one of the best TE's the game has ever seen and absolutely dominated.
He won't get in first ballot.
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:58 PM    (permalink
JonasBlane
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Ray Guy sacrificed distance for hang time and rarely even had his punts returned.
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averaging 42.4 yards per punt, with a 33.8 net yards average
I've never really payed close attention to a punter's stats, but a 33.8 yards net per punt does not seem to be very good. Also contradicts you saying that he rarely had punts returned, as he did to the tune of 9 yards per every punt.



As for the main topic, I don't like that Terrell Davis did not make the list of Finalists again. He basically had the 3 best consecutive seasons any running back has ever had. 2000 yard season, 2 SB's, 1 MVP, 1 SuperBowl MVP. I know his career was short, but like Gale Sayers, I think he deserves to get in based on being so great during a short period.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:19 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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Last year's class was horrible. Giving more slots would only make the HOF even more diluted.

I still couldn't believe that Cris Carter and Derrick Thomas didn't make it against last year's other candidates.
The whole diluted argument is nonsense. There have been thousands of owners, coaches, players and executives involved in pro football in its history. A fraction of them going into the Hof every year does not dilute anything. The whole diluted argument is put forth by people who like the controversy created because it gets people watching, reading and talking about it.

Last edited by Halsey : 01-07-2009 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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Last year's class was horrible. Giving more slots would only make the HOF even more diluted.

I still couldn't believe that Cris Carter and Derrick Thomas didn't make it against last year's other candidates.
The problem isn't dilution it is less qualified players going over more qualified ones.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:35 PM    (permalink
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As for the main topic, I don't like that Terrell Davis did not make the list of Finalists again. He basically had the 3 best consecutive seasons any running back has ever had. 2000 yard season, 2 SB's, 1 MVP, 1 SuperBowl MVP. I know his career was short, but like Gale Sayers, I think he deserves to get in based on being so great during a short period.
did you just compare Terrell Davis to Gale Sayers? You know what scheme Davis ran in, right?
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Woo-hoo! No Modell!


Art Modell! BURN IN HELL!
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Old 01-08-2009, 01:54 AM    (permalink
JonasBlane
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did you just compare Terrell Davis to Gale Sayers? You know what scheme Davis ran in, right?

Yes, a very good one... But a good system alone doesn't give you a 2000 yard rushing season, an MVP, a SuperBowl MVP. That's like saying Joe Montana and Steve Young were only HOFers because of their "system".

And why is it offensive to compare TD to Sayers? No offense to Gale, but TD accomplished much more in his equally short career. In years 2-4 of TD's career he had 5296 rushing yards, and 49 td's(53 if you count receiving). That's 1765 yards and and 17.67 td's per season over that stretch.

TD has every credential except for longevity. To me, I'd rather see him get in over an Art Monk, who was good for a long time, but never dominant.
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Old 01-08-2009, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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Until TD is played by Lando Calrizian in one of the best sports movies of all time, he cannot touch Gale Sayers.
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