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Old 02-11-2009, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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Al Harris will have no problem playing zone. Zone is much easier to play than man. I also highly doubt the zone won't begin in press coverage. If I were to guess, it would end up being a man within zone type of scheme. Where if someone crosses through your zone, you take them man. If no one is in your zone you peel off and look for work.

I posted this in the Packer team forum:
Just because it is a zone defense doesn't mean the corners have to play off. It is possible, and I am thinking quite likely, that the Packers corners will play in the receivers face even while in zone. To do otherwise would be absolutely stupid. The Packers have the best bump and run corners in the league, they will continue to take advantage of that.

When I was at Portland State, we used a defense that was similar to the Steelers defense. Our corners were in zone, but they played it up on the line. I have a feeling that is going to be the type of defense the Packers run, considering Capers was with the Steelers when they first started running the defense(more or less) they have, back in '92. I don't think you need to worry about Harris. He will probably be able to continue playing on the line, but his diminishing speed will be hidden by the zone they will be playing. I will bet anything the secondary gets better. Woodson and Collins are both ballhawks, and they will thrive in a zone defense(even more so than they did this year.) Bigby will probably be playing closer to the line and will be able to take advantage of his hitting ability.

Yeah I would assume though, that they would take the man that crosses their zone. Being an offensive minded coach, if you didn't specify responsibilities like that then teams would get into tight formations such as bunch and criss cross the hell out of you guys. So I'd assume the roles would be such that you guys would be able to play those tight formations like that.

It will be interesting see how they play zone. They may play off man too, but yeah you can play zone closer than 5 yards. You can show pre snap man coverage, and then turn into a side technique and bail before the snap. So I am expecting Capers to throw in various looks to confuse the offense. But my comment was player specific only because it happened with our team.

If you recall for the longest time people said our secondary stunk. Statisically yes, but that had nothing to do with talent per say. Our DC was a moron, who tried to make players play in a system that didn't flatter them. When we hired spags we changed out system and approach and Webster excelled big time.

I am just saying overall zone is a harder concept because you are looking at the QB and @ # 2. But again the specifics would be hard to know unless one gets a copy of the def. playbook and how they approach various techniques.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Yeah I would assume though, that they would take the man that crosses their zone. Being an offensive minded coach, if you didn't specify responsibilities like that then teams would get into tight formations such as bunch and criss cross the hell out of you guys. So I'd assume the roles would be such that you guys would be able to play those tight formations like that.

...

I am just saying overall zone is a harder concept because you are looking at the QB and @ # 2. But again the specifics would be hard to know unless one gets a copy of the def. playbook and how they approach various techniques.
I don't think you are understanding what I mean. I am betting they will play zone where if a man crosses into their zone, they lock up on him. Then they follow him anywhere on the field, instead of a true zone where they will pass him on to the next guy.

Zone is a harder concept, but much easier in execution. You do not read the QBs eyes on any level higher than High School. The ball gets to the receiver too quickly. The corner would read #2 to #1, he wouldn't ever look at the QB, except in situations where he is playing a free zone(which is usually the safeties job.)
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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I don't think you are understanding what I mean. I am betting they will play zone where if a man crosses into their zone, they lock up on him. Then they follow him anywhere on the field, instead of a true zone where they will pass him on to the next guy.

Zone is a harder concept, but much easier in execution. You do not read the QBs eyes on any level higher than High School. The ball gets to the receiver too quickly. The corner would read #2 to #1, he wouldn't ever look at the QB, except in situations where he is playing a free zone(which is usually the safeties job.)

Are you saying corners playing in a zone don't read the QB's eyes?

A true zone or false zone or whatever corners read Qb's eyes alot. Unless I have missed something in the past 90 years.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Are you saying corners playing in a zone don't read the QB's eyes?

A true zone or false zone or whatever corners read Qb's eyes alot. Unless I have missed something in the past 90 years.
In most zones DBs do not read the QBs eyes. The exception is when a DB is playing free. They are always looking at the receivers. The receivers are too quick, and the ball gets their too fast. Watch when there are busted coverages, 9 times out of 10 it won't be because they got beat, but because they were watching the QB. Watch when a team plays excellent zone and they will always be watching their keys, which for a DB is NEVER the QB.

High school is the only level where you are taught to watch the QBs eyes. That gets beaten out of you when you play in college quickly. It is a tough adjustment to make, but when you do, zone gets a hell of a lot easier.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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In most zones DBs do not read the QBs eyes. The exception is when a DB is playing free. They are always looking at the receivers. The receivers are too quick, and the ball gets their too fast. Watch when there are busted coverages, 9 times out of 10 it won't be because they got beat, but because they were watching the QB. Watch when a team plays excellent zone and they will always be watching their keys, which for a DB is NEVER the QB.

High school is the only level where you are taught to watch the QBs eyes. That gets beaten out of you when you play in college quickly. It is a tough adjustment to make, but when you do, zone gets a hell of a lot easier.
Are you cues in which make a corner break on a pass the QB or the WR?
Don't tell me the WR putting his arms up about to catch it :D
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:49 AM    (permalink
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Are you cues in which make a corner break on a pass the QB or the WR?
Don't tell me the WR putting his arms up about to catch it :D
The receivers break, not the ball. You look for the ball when the receiver breaks.
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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The receivers break, not the ball. You look for the ball when the receiver breaks.
And if you don't watch the Qb's eyes, then you just been double moved!
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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I don't think you are understanding what I mean. I am betting they will play zone where if a man crosses into their zone, they lock up on him. Then they follow him anywhere on the field, instead of a true zone where they will pass him on to the next guy.

Zone is a harder concept, but much easier in execution. You do not read the QBs eyes on any level higher than High School. The ball gets to the receiver too quickly. The corner would read #2 to #1, he wouldn't ever look at the QB, except in situations where he is playing a free zone(which is usually the safeties job.)
O ok, I get it. You're right I mis understood what you were trying to get at.

Yeah that could be option Capers may use. It depends on his system though. I am sure they will mix it up at this NFL level.

The defender does look at the QB's eyes, and that's simply by turning into a side stance while bailing. That's what I mean by looking into the QB's eyes or backfield. Also, you are looking into the backfield for your other read, and that's where route reading comes into place. That's how the CB then hits his recognizion point and then tries to get to the int. point of the WR's route.

We must be talking specific system, because I know the Bucs when they ran Tampa 2 zone, they read when # 1 with their eyes in the backfield through # 1 for # 2. While they are doing that, they are collisioning # 1, and funneling him inside, that's where they decide if # 2 is a threat they sink, if not they may play trail hoping the safety is there. But again this all theory, because each DC will implement his own way of running the system. This specific system is from the Bucs style of Tampa 2/ C2 zone system. You may be correct too, in which case we are basically talking same theory but the implentation of it being different.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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And if you don't watch the Qb's eyes, then you just been double moved!
That's why a double move is the hardest thing to cover. The QBs eyes won't give away if it is a double move. I can promise you DBs don't look at the QBs eyes. When I was playing at Portland State last year, Jerry Glanville was my head coach. He was an NFL coach for 20+ years. You have no idea how often he would get on me for even just glancing at the QB when I first got there. I guarantee defensive backs do not look at the QB. I know it from both personal experience, and from many people who have had experience playing at a high level. I know for a fact I am right in this argument. Watching the QB will only get a defensive back beat.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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O ok, I get it. You're right I mis understood what you were trying to get at.

Yeah that could be option Capers may use. It depends on his system though. I am sure they will mix it up at this NFL level.

The defender does look at the QB's eyes, and that's simply by turning into a side stance while bailing. That's what I mean by looking into the QB's eyes or backfield. Also, you are looking into the backfield for your other read, and that's where route reading comes into place. That's how the CB then hits his recognizion point and then tries to get to the int. point of the WR's route.

We must be talking specific system, because I know the Bucs when they ran Tampa 2 zone, they read when # 1 with their eyes in the backfield through # 1 for # 2. While they are doing that, they are collisioning # 1, and funneling him inside, that's where they decide if # 2 is a threat they sink, if not they may play trail hoping the safety is there. But again this all theory, because each DC will implement his own way of running the system. This specific system is from the Bucs style of Tampa 2/ C2 zone system. You may be correct too, in which case we are basically talking same theory but the implentation of it being different.
Obviously, everything I say is only mean to be in general, there are specific plays that a db would read the backfield.

The corner who turns to face the field(instead of the man) doesn't look at the QB, he looks at the rest of the field to see if he needs to peel off. Taking your eyes off the receivers is the cardinal sin of defensive backs.

I know what you mean by reading a QBs eyes, but if there is more than one receiver to a side, the CB does not look in the backfield at all. Defensive backs react to the receivers routes. They do it the same in zone as they would in man. They do not look for the ball until the have reacted to the receiver.

In a cover two defense the Corner is responsible for reading 1 to 2(3 if it is trips, but only if 2 and three do a quick cross.) If #2 is in the backfield he will read that. If #2 isn't in the backfield he won't even look to the backfield.

Defensive backs very rarely look to the backfield. They are not concerned about the QB or the RBs(unless they are primary force, but that is really only goalline, or if you are Troy Palomalu.)
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Obviously, everything I say is only mean to be in general, there are specific plays that a db would read the backfield.

I know what you mean by reading a QBs eyes, but if there is more than one receiver to a side, the CB does not look in the backfield at all. Defensive backs react to the receivers routes. They do it the same in zone as they would in man. They do not look for the ball until the have reacted to the receiver.

In a cover two defense the Corner is responsible for reading 1 to 2(3 if it is trips, but only if 2 and three do a quick cross.) If #2 is in the backfield he will read that. If #2 isn't in the backfield he won't even look to the backfield.

Defensive backs very rarely look to the backfield. They are not concerned about the QB or the RBs(unless they are primary force, but that is really only goalline, or if you are Troy Palomalu.)


Yeah I am assuming a 1 X 1 formation, and assuming # 2 is the 2b or 3b in the backfield. I agree if it's a 2 X 1 formation he will probably route read for combo routes, ie Smash. So I agree with that. As a offensive coach, I don't really get into the extreme detail of all this. It is interesting, but our goal is to get the big picture.

That is all the various fronts, coverages, and get their IDs down. But I am just going by what I studied on my free time, and the def. coaches I talked to on my staff.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:35 PM    (permalink
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I was just busting balls. It is all relative to what is in front of the DB of course.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Yeah I am assuming a 1 X 1 formation, and assuming # 2 is the 2b or 3b in the backfield. I agree if it's a 2 X 1 formation he will probably route read for combo routes, ie Smash. So I agree with that. As a offensive coach, I don't really get into the extreme detail of all this. It is interesting, but our goal is to get the big picture.

That is all the various fronts, coverages, and get their IDs down. But I am just going by what I studied on my free time, and the def. coaches I talked to on my staff.
That's where we ran into problems. Since the spread is the predominant offense being run these days, that is the offense I am talking about. An offense that has 3 or 4 receivers every play. There are really only two times a DB looks in the backfield, when he only has 1 receiver to his side, and when he is playing free. So it is typically only in Man 1 when there are multiple receivers(and even then it is just about always a safety.)

I was planning on coaching for a while, but decided against it. I was going to be a defensive coach, since I played DB.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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I would say that some people do THINK that DB's read the QB's eyes all the time. In reality it's guys like Charles Woodson, Ed Reed, Champ Bailey that do it and get away with it. When Woodson gets an INT, after the game, they'll ask him about it. Half the time he'll say something about playing mind games with the QB or reading his eyes. So it's not suppose to happen, but only the greats do it regularly with success.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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That's where we ran into problems. Since the spread is the predominant offense being run these days, that is the offense I am talking about. An offense that has 3 or 4 receivers every play. There are really only two times a DB looks in the backfield, when he only has 1 receiver to his side, and when he is playing free. So it is typically only in Man 1 when there are multiple receivers(and even then it is just about always a safety.)

I was planning on coaching for a while, but decided against it. I was going to be a defensive coach, since I played DB.
Yeah, the spread is really the biggest thing, but it depends because there are soo many systems in the broad term spread offense. So each has their own flavor in terms of concepts run.

You should pursue coaching if that interests you. I coached TEs at the d3 level. We ran a spread system which Urban Meyer ran in Utah with Alex Smith.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, the spread is really the biggest thing, but it depends because there are soo many systems in the broad term spread offense. So each has their own flavor in terms of concepts run.

You should pursue coaching if that interests you. I coached TEs at the d3 level. We ran a spread system which Urban Meyer ran in Utah with Alex Smith.
I have had one too many bad experiences with football, I'm going to stick to being a fan.

When I talk about a spread, I mean any offense that has 3+ receivers almost every play. It is a very broad stroke, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is really all that is needed.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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I would say that some people do THINK that DB's read the QB's eyes all the time. In reality it's guys like Charles Woodson, Ed Reed, Champ Bailey that do it and get away with it. When Woodson gets an INT, after the game, they'll ask him about it. Half the time he'll say something about playing mind games with the QB or reading his eyes. So it's not suppose to happen, but only the greats do it regularly with success.
Mind games and reading the QB is completely different. Mind games is baiting a QB to throw somewhere. Unless you have unbelievable reflexes and speed, reading the QB will only get you beat. But I bet if you ask Woodson about his INTs after he watches film, he will have realized he jumped the route, rather than the ball. You never know exactly what you do until you watch film.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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I have had one too many bad experiences with football, I'm going to stick to being a fan.

When I talk about a spread, I mean any offense that has 3+ receivers almost every play. It is a very broad stroke, but for the purposes of this discussion, it is really all that is needed.
O man that sucks. Sorry to hear. Who knows perhaps in the future you may get the itch to join in.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:38 PM    (permalink
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S+M, I don't know if you already answered this question but if you were acting this defense what do you think is the weak point of our defense in the 34?
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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S+M, I don't know if you already answered this question but if you were acting this defense what do you think is the weak point of our defense in the 34?
Do you mean the 3-4 in general, or the packers personnel?
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:11 AM    (permalink
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Do you mean the 3-4 in general, or the packers personnel?
well if someone was planing on how to attack our defense.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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well if someone was planing on how to attack our defense.
Hand the ball off.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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well if someone was planing on how to attack our defense.
Power running game. We don't have a true nose, we have one DE, and our ILBs are undersized and not very good at shedding blocks.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:13 AM    (permalink
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S+M, I don't know if you already answered this question but if you were acting this defense what do you think is the weak point of our defense in the 34?
Well the trenches is very important so I'd hope you guys get the right fit to play both DE spots and the NT spot. The other details I am not sure about. During the season I am busy breaking down giants games so I don't get time to watch other games unless you guys play us. I did break down last years playoff game vs us, and thought your defense was very simple in terms of alignment.

I would wonder what Capers does to the defense. You're guess is as good as mine.
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Old 02-12-2009, 11:15 AM    (permalink
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I think I misunderstood what your asking. Are you saying how would I beat it or what is the basic weakness talking as a defensive guy trying to support your defense?
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