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Old 02-05-2009, 11:07 AM    (permalink
TG-HoF
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Default Thigpen not the answer

Thigpen is not the answer to our quarterback position.

He was placed in a college style short passing game to maximize his skills. Even then he posted a 54.8% completion %. Good NFL quarterbacks post numbers closer to 60. In this offense a decent qb should post an even higher number.

I would like to take a look at Cassell if we don't have to give up too much for him, although that's unlikely. Before people jump on me and give the old "NE has a great offense and a great offensive line" routine, Cassell was sacked more than any quarterback in the NFL last year (I'm sure he is partly to blame for this as well as the offensive line), and Bernard FREAKING Pollard was the one who knocked Brady out for the season. I don't think Pollard got that close to a quarterback again the entire season.

I don't think Thigpen should just be released and ignored but I don't think he
has the accuracy to be an NFL quarterback.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:56 AM    (permalink
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Something you're forgetting is that it was Thigpens FIRST SEASON AS A STARTER. Players can develop into more than rookies. I'm not sure he's the long term answer either, but citing completion %age as the reason he isn't the answer after his first year (and what, 8 starts?) is not really telling the whole story.
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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I understand it was his first season but he played in 14 games so most of a season. I think you could easily make the case that he was one of the 5 worst starting quarterbacks in the NFL last year.

Dan Orlovsky
JaMarcus Russell
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Marc Bulger

These 4 were about the only qb's that were worse than him. Is that really enough to say that Thigpen is an NFL quarterback? I don't think that it is.

Completion percentage(accuracy) is actually one of the most important stats to look at when judging quarterbacks. 54.8% isn't bad....its terrible, especially in a spread offense where you never throw the ball more than 12-15 yards downfield. If he actually played in a real pro offense I shudder to think how bad it would have been.

I do think he did a great job with the hand he was dealt, I just don't think he is good enough.

Having rambled on for 3 or 4 paragraphs I will end by saying if Stafford is gone I hope the Chiefs go Curry then DEnd or OT in the draft.
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Old 02-05-2009, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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FYI, Peyton Manning had a 56.7% completion percentage in his rookie year. That's what...two more completions than thiggy in every 100 passes? I'm not saying that Thiggy is the answer, but he's definately justified him at least competing for the starting postion next season and look at a guy that could take a year or two to start. The guy has so much upside it's hard not to think he could develop into a viable quarterback.
Also, outside of Alberts and Watters, we got no one on our offensive line. Also, Watters is getting old quick. I'd think we'd go Alex Mack in the second round, and Curry in the first, that'd help out our bleeding line and inept pass rush.
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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Stafford ftw!!!!

Ill edit a legit response tonight
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Old 02-05-2009, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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If Stafford is available in the first I think the Chiefs should take him, because I think he is closer to franchise material then Thiggy, but I still think Thiggy earned a shot at starting next year.

That being said, he needs to get a lot better. I think the Pistol is a good wrinkle to throw in to keep defenses off-balance, but it cannot be the base offense. He needs to develop into a drop back passer that can go through his reads. If he can do that, run a pro offense with the Pistol as a wrinkle I think the Chiefs offense would be dynamic. But they have to be able to run the ball better.

I think if Stafford goes to Detroit, Aaron Curry will probably be the best player on the board, so that's the guy the Chiefs need to go for at 3. In the 2nd round, I think the Chiefs would be best served getting that right tackle, and I think Loadholt is probably the guy. I still like Niswanger and I'm not ready to write him off yet. I think between SackIntosh, Richardson, Taylor, and Jones we should be able to find a competent right guard.

As for Cassel, I don't know what I would be willing to pay to get him. I'm not sold, and I think it would be more worth our dollar to draft and develop our own QB. New regime, it's time to stop being afraid to draft our own QBs. I think if I had to choose between Thiggy and Cassel, I'd take Thiggy. He did almost as much as Cassel with not nearly as much to work with.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Yea, I think the absolutlely best case scenario for us would be:
1. Stafford(Keep in holding a clipboard for a year or two, force him to beat thiggy out).
2. Larinitis(Amazing Value for this guy early in the second, and he seems like he's dropping down the charts)
3. Connor Barwin---He might not fall this far, but the guy has an upside and would add at least depth to our "inept" pass rush.
4. Herman Johnson---Ok, I read his profile, and it might be because the guy was bigger than I was at 6 months when he was born(like 15 pounds, his poor mother), this guy's a monster and would be a great value in Round Four.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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Also, I think that Thiggy is Cassel, except with mobility and his lack of options(compared to Randy Moss, Wes Welker, etc)
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:57 PM    (permalink
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If you would honestly take Thigpen over Cassell and you aren't being silly I have to say I don't trust your ability to rank players talents. I don't think Cassell is a great player by any stretch but I also don't think Thigpen will be in the NFL in 3 years.

I think you underestimate the difference between going through progressions and making throws in a pro offense and the 3 steps and fire approach the Chiefs went with. I would be willing to bet Thigpen completed less than 3 passes per game to his 3rd receiver or beyond.

I said in my original post that he should be kept around, but if no legitimate alternative is brought in to compete with him I have to question our new GM and his ability to judge NFL quarterbacks.

Edit: Thinking about a player who he reminds me of: Vince Young..except Vince is bigger, faster and has a better arm:) He also just can't run a decent pro offense.

Edit #2: The Chiefs averaged 4.8 yards per carry last year yet only 3 teams ran the ball less than we did. I think Chan Gailey may have fallen in love with his gimmick and got away from the run a little too much.

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Old 02-05-2009, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TG-HoF View Post
If you would honestly take Thigpen over Cassell and you aren't being silly I have to say I don't trust your ability to rank players talents. I don't think Cassell is a great player by any stretch but I also don't think Thigpen will be in the NFL in 3 years.



Remember dude, Cassell was put into an offense that destroyed records last year. And Randy Moss. That dude even made Daunte Culpepper look good. Cassell is overrated...same as Thiggy. Also, your telling me that Cassell has more upside that Thiggy? You can't be serious. I don't know if Thiggy is our guy, but you can definately see the talent he posesses. What would happen if you put Cassell into our offense? He'd be killed. Advantage: Thiggy.


I think you underestimate the difference between going through progressions and making throws in a pro offense and the 3 steps and fire approach the Chiefs went with. I would be willing to bet Thigpen completed less than 3 passes per game to his 3rd receiver or beyond. And what's our third reciever's name?


Peyton had(and still has) a very,very solid group of wide recievers. You know your at a disadvantage when your slot guy can compete with our starter. Also, Rookie QB's do lock on to their primary reciever(in this case, Tony btw Thiggy has your boys approval as a franchise qb). I don't want to compare Thiggy to Peyton, because he ain't no Manning and that ain't no comparison.



I said in my original post that he should be kept around, but if no legitimate alternative is brought in to compete with him I have to question our new GM and his ability to judge NFL quarterbacks.
Yea, I 100% agree with that. I can't even think of any realtively intelligent person who wouldn't agree with that. The guy was a 7th rounder for a reason.

Edit: Thinking about a player who he reminds me of: Vince Young..except Vince is bigger, faster and has a better arm:) He also just can't run a decent pro offense.
That and Thiggy has only won two games as a starter, Vince has won quite a few and lead his team to the playoffs.

Edit #2: The Chiefs averaged 4.8 yards per carry last year yet only 3 teams ran the ball less than we did. I think Chan Gailey may have fallen in love with his gimmick and got away from the run a little too much.
Well, when you run the spread offense, you would think the defense would be in pass coverage mode. I think it's merely a function of running the spread.
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Old 02-05-2009, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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That's a very good point but that still doesn't explain why we didn't have many attempts. Seems to me if we can average almost 5 yards per carry we should have been running the ball more and passing less, especially considering Thigpen's Yards Per Attempt was 6.21(29th).

I don't think I can complain too much about Chan Gailey though he probably did the best with what he had, same as Thigpen.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TG-HoF View Post
That's a very good point but that still doesn't explain why we didn't have many attempts. Seems to me if we can average almost 5 yards per carry we should have been running the ball more and passing less, especially considering Thigpen's Yards Per Attempt was 6.21(29th).

I don't think I can complain too much about Chan Gailey though he probably did the best with what he had, same as Thigpen.

True dat, with a horrendous, injuried offensive line. a woman beater Running back(who sucks at pass blocking), chan was just showing off with Thiggy. I like Chan a lot. I think he should have a shot at Head Coach, he did have success with the cowboys on their decline from their dynasty....maybe he should just stay a bad ass at O-Coordinator...
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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The questions now are the following for Haley and Pioli to answer not us losers

1. Is thigpen the answer?
2. Is cassell worth the trading of future picks?
3. if Stafford is their do you take him at 3?
4. DONT ******* PICK SANCHEZ AT 3!
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Old 02-06-2009, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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1. Maybe.
2. NO.
3. Yes.
4. I agree!
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Old 02-06-2009, 01:49 PM    (permalink
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1. Obviously I don't think he is.

2. I don't think Cassell will be worth the picks or the money we will have to give up to get him. Going after Suggs/Scott/Berry/Peppers is more important.

3. I think they would, but I don't think he is there.

4. Carson Palmer or Matt Leinart? I don't think Sanchez will be rated as high as either of these guys were when they came out. Not a good year to try and draft a franchise QB, though they don't have many good options.
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Old 02-06-2009, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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1. I think he's earned an oppurtunity to start. I'd still like to get a cheap FA like Byron Leftwich to compete against him.
2. God No, why on earth would someone go after him for that high of a price?
3. I'm leaning towards no, why not draft a guy like Curry, fortify your defense and pick guy later.
4. Nah, stay away from that guy.
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Old 02-07-2009, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Big Ben in 2008 17 TD's and 15 INT's

Thiggy in 2008: 18 TD's and 12 INT's

not saying he is big ben but still that is nothing to sneeze at
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Old 02-07-2009, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bored of education View Post
The questions now are the following for Haley and Pioli to answer not us losers

1. Is thigpen the answer?
2. Is cassell worth the trading of future picks?
3. if Stafford is their do you take him at 3?
4. DONT ******* PICK SANCHEZ AT 3!
1. jusry is still out but he has the talent
2. no
3. yes
4. AMEN
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Old 02-07-2009, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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I think it would be a bad idea for the Chiefs to trade up for Stafford, or to trade for Cassell. As a rebuilding franchise, you can't sacrifice off pieces for other unproven pieces. I mean, yes, Cassell will *probably* be better than Thigpen, but it's not sure. And to have Cassell as opposed to Thigpen, you'd have to weaken the team around him. Stafford will be better than Thigpen, but I don't see any way you can get him without giving up the farm, because I don't see how the Lions could possibly pass on him.

I just think that as a rebuilding team, if you have an intriguing option at quarterback ON the team, then you need to play it out, because you need the picks for other positions as well.
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Old 02-07-2009, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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Big Ben in 2008 17 TD's and 15 INT's

Thiggy in 2008: 18 TD's and 12 INT's

not saying he is big ben but still that is nothing to sneeze at
I agree, he'll never be that caliber of QB, but if he could produce like that out of the proset, then he could be at the very least a solid backup. I think we're in a good situatiion because Stafford will probably be a lion, and if he drops to us we could use him as trade bait. I can imagine if Thiggy was on PITT's team. I mean, Big Ben had three more INT's than Thiggy did, and Pitt still got the second seed in the afc. So perhaps you build up your defense(which we're only like two players away from being consistently good IMO)
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Old 02-07-2009, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bored of education View Post
1. Is thigpen the answer?
2. Is cassell worth the trading of future picks?
3. if Stafford is their do you take him at 3?
4. DONT ******* PICK SANCHEZ AT 3!
1) I would like to see him get a chance
2) It wouldn't be a very good idea
3) There's no reason you shouldn't
4) BOE, you'd probably kill yourself if they did
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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I for one want to see The Chiefs build around TT it is way to early to give up on the kid.

Gonzo and Bowe have all ready said they enjoy playing with him and feel he should stay the starter that says alot right there.

I understand his play dropped off in the second half of games but IMO that has alot to do with coaching.
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Old 02-07-2009, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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I for one want to see The Chiefs build around TT it is way to early to give up on the kid.

Gonzo and Bowe have all ready said they enjoy playing with him and feel he should stay the starter that says alot right there.

I understand his play dropped off in the second half of games but IMO that has alot to do with coaching.

totally agree
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Old 02-07-2009, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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I agree as well, but if Stafford is there at 3, how do you pass on him?
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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I am really surprised that this many people think he is an NFL caliber QB. I love that he can run around and escape pressure but he won 1 game as a starter. If Brodie Croyle had put up his exact numbers and number of wins I think he would be getting crucified. I root for the kid and want him to be a good quarterback for the Chiefs, I just don't see it.

ESPN is reporting that Cassell accepted the patriots 1 year deal at 14 mil. Guess that means he isn't going anywhere. Good news for Chiefs fans in my opinion.

Edit: Gonzalez and Bowe standing behind Thigpen is meaningless. Gonzalez wanted Herm back also, I don't think you would want that. General managers make those decisions, not Tight Ends begging to be traded.

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