The 3-4 Debate

Splat · 02-07-2009, 06:26 PM

There has been alot of talk from fans and media about the Chiefs maybe going to a 3-4 D I would like to get your thoughts on the matter?

I'm not going to sit here and say if they will or won't non of us can really know 100% but here are my thoughts.

I didn't like the idea at first since we don't really have the players (on paper) to make the switch but the more I think about it the more I like it.

You could argue we don't have the players to run a successful 4-3 either I don't have to bring up stats every one knows how bad our D was.

My thing is if we are going to do it this would be the best year for it since we have so much cap room and so many early picks in the draft.

The biggest two question marks players wise from the roster we have right now are Dorsey and Hail.

We all know Dorsey would not be a good fit at NT but could he move to DE and make plays or would he be lost?

A even bigger question make in my mind is Hali what would they do with him I'm not ready to give up on him but I feel he can't play DE in a 3-4 and I'm not sure he is athletic enough to play LB?

I don't think we could just completely go all out 3-4 in one off season but I do feel we could play a hybrid 3-4 4-3 mix and slowly over time make the full jump.

Thoughts?

vidae · 02-07-2009, 09:42 PM

imo it really depends on how good Dorsey is. We drafted him 5th overall last year and paid him a buttload of money.. is that all wasted? Can he play a 3-4 DE? I'm not sure.

DJ would be great in the 3-4, I think Demorrio Williams would be good too, he has speed.. but the rest? And what about our DBs? I think they'll be better if we get pressure, but if this is something we want to do we should decide it sooner rather than later because that #3 pick is looking mighty sweet with Curry, Orakpo, Brown etc on the board.

Splat · 02-07-2009, 09:54 PM

I got to thinking if we do go 3-4 I could see Donnie Edwards staying on one more year SP likes vets any ways.

OLB Williams
MLB Edwards
MLB Johnson
OLB Curry

Thats pretty sick.

Paranoidmoonduck · 02-07-2009, 10:02 PM

Even more than the question of the current roster's ability to play in a 3-4 front (which, I must say doesn't look particularly good) is whether the Chiefs can afford to ignore adding to that offense and spend almost all their 2009 draft picks on guys to make the transition possible.

Splat · 02-07-2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

Even more than the question of the current roster's ability to play in a 3-4 front (which, I must say doesn't look particularly good) is whether the Chiefs can afford to ignore adding to that offense and spend almost all their 2009 draft picks on guys to make the transition possible.

I don't think the Chiefs O is in that bad of shape top ten no but with some tweaking of the OL they can be middle of the pack IMO.

Paranoidmoonduck · 02-07-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splat420

I don't think the Chiefs O is in that bad of shape top ten no but with some tweaking of the OL they can be middle of the pack IMO.

I'd say the team is at least short a quarterback (and whether they draft one or trade for Cassell, that will cost at least one draft pick) and a #2 wide receiver along with some offensive line. They certainly aren't in a state that I would say the offense could go a year without drafting some good young talent.

Splat · 02-07-2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck

I'd say the team is at least short a quarterback (and whether they draft one or trade for Cassell, that will cost at least one draft pick) and a #2 wide receiver along with some offensive line. They certainly aren't in a state that I would say the offense could go a year without drafting some good young talent.

I agree they will have to draft some O but like I said in my post above switching to a 3-4 will take more the one off season but they can start the building process now.

I for one still have high hopes for Tyler Thigpen and the Chiefs do have talent at WR but it is young talent I look for them to grab a vet WR and RT or RG in FA.

M.O.T.H. · 02-07-2009, 10:44 PM

I dont see how Demorrio Williams would play OLB in a 3-4. blah. He might not be all that great but, Babin is the better fit, given his size. Even though, he wasnt amazing there when he played for Houston. Is he still under contract?

You guys dont have good personnel to make that transition...it may very well happen, though. But, it's not a good fit...especially along the D-Line...where you have Hali who is too small to play 3-4 end and not a good OLB candidate either. Both Tank and Dorsey are in the same boat...similar size, both had been talked about as possible 3-4 NTs back in the day but, neither is ideal and I wouldnt want either at end...that would have to be Dorsey, making that move more than likely, though. It doesnt look good at all.

Crickett · 02-07-2009, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

You guys dont have good personnel to make that transition...it may very well happen, though. But, it's not a good fit...especially along the D-Line...where you have Hali who is too small to play 3-4 end and not a good OLB candidate either. Both Tank and Dorsey are in the same boat...similar size, both had been talked about as possible 3-4 NTs back in the day but, neither is ideal and I wouldnt want either at end...that would have to be Dorsey, making that move more than likely, though. It doesnt look good at all.

I never heard Dorsey and 3-4 NT used in the same sentence once unless that sentence was Glenn Dorsey is not a 3-4 NT.

M.O.T.H. · 02-07-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crickett

I never heard Dorsey and 3-4 NT used in the same sentence once unless that sentence was Glenn Dorsey is not a 3-4 NT.

There was a reason some thought he'd go to Miami. There were a number of scouts that said, he could realistically play the nose in a bit of a modified 3-4. Like a Jay Ratliff. Obviously, he is much better suited as that 3 technqiue DT but, there were people out there that believed he could play NT effectively in a 3-4. I even said he's not ideal at all and Tank would more than likely get the nod but, Dorsey and the 3-4 has been discussed before.

Crickett · 02-07-2009, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

There was a reason some thought he'd go to Miami. There were a number of scouts that said, he could realistically play the nose in a bit of a modified 3-4. Like a Jay Ratliff. Obviously, he is much better suited as that 3 technqiue DT but, there were people out there that believed he could play NT effectively in a 3-4. I even said he's not ideal at all and Tank would more than likely get the nod but, Dorsey and the 3-4 has been discussed before.

If anyone had him pegged to go to Miami, it was because they viewed him as the best player in the draft, not because he was suited to play the 3-4 nose. Most seemed to have him going to the Falcons before they drafted Matt Ryan.

PACKmanN · 02-07-2009, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splat420

I got to thinking if we do go 3-4 I could see Donnie Edwards staying on one more year SP likes vets any ways.

OLB Williams
MLB Edwards
MLB Johnson
OLB Curry

Thats pretty sick.

Curry would play inside.

M.O.T.H. · 02-07-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crickett

If anyone had him pegged to go to Miami, it was because they viewed him as the best player in the draft, not because he was suited to play the 3-4 nose. Most seemed to have him going to the Falcons before they drafted Matt Ryan.

Regardless of where they had him pegged...his name and the 3-4 nose was a common topic last year and many believed he could play it.

Crickett · 02-08-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

Regardless of where they had him pegged...his name and the 3-4 nose was a common topic last year and many believed he could play it.

I just searched Glenn Dorsey nose. All I found was a bunch of posts talking about how he didn't really fit in the 3-4 and a mock by toonsterwu suggesting that Glenn Dorsey could play the nose in the 4-3 for the Rams.

M.O.T.H. · 02-08-2009, 12:43 AM

ughhhhhhhh.....

Why do you think the Dolphins and Patriots were interested in him so much? Yes many considered him to be the best player in the draft...a main reason why is because, he was a guy who projected well to play multiple positions along the line. Thus, the Dolphins and Pats saw value in a player that could potentially play end or the nose. As long as his "stress fractures" and knee were nothing serious...he was considered to be a cant miss in either defensive scheme. Still much better suited as a three technique 4-3 guy but, fine in any scheme. I dont even know why there is a debate here when, if the Dolphins did draft him #1...it was with the intent of him manning the middle. And at one time, he was the consensus pick for the Dolphins not too far away from the draft. Which means a hell of a lot of people thought he was capable of playing in a 3-4 defense.

and given Dorsey's playing style at the collegiete level and the success of say a guy like Ratliff...seeing Dorsey have success there is much easier today.

With all that being said...i do agree, he is better in the 4-3 and they dont even have the right personell to make such a move...but, this was a highly debated topic last year on here and out there in the real world.

and again...Tyler is better suited there anyway and Dorsey would have to play end. So, this whole thing is more than likely pointless anyway.

vidae · 02-08-2009, 12:46 AM

We almost have all the pieces needed to run a pretty solid 4-3. We need a pass rushing DE and a MLB but other than that.. I like our secondary and how they've progressed and I think that if he's used correctly that Dorsey could be the dominant player many thought he'd be.. I do not think you can label him a bust just yet.. but I really hope we don't switch to the 3-4. It would take years to draft and develop those players for that system and it looks as if a lot of money would be wasted, depending on a few players and their ability to fit into that scheme.

diabsoule · 02-08-2009, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.O.T.H.

Regardless of where they had him pegged...his name and the 3-4 nose was a common topic last year and many believed he could play it.

Dorsey's best fit is a 3-4 end. His not big enough to be a 3-4 nose.

bored of education · 02-08-2009, 12:52 AM

i am readig this thread and i have a **** load to say. i cant really type that well and i wont make a thread saying im the most drink poster in nfldc DC history. but i think we lack the personel to make the transition AT ALL. I think it would take another year of 2-3 solid picks to become a good defense in the 4-3 than 3 drafts to become relevant with a 3-4.

offense has too many holes and defense has too many holes as a colelctive to make that transition. now a days wit hthe win now type of thinking ..no way does Clark hunt say suree take 3 more drafts to make KC a force.

Not one player in the front 7 has the 'mold' or skillset to 'excell; in the 3-4

but i will dicuss further tomorrow

M.O.T.H. · 02-08-2009, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabsoule

Dorsey's best fit is a 3-4 end. His not big enough to be a 3-4 nose.

I've agreed that his best fit in a Chiefs 3-4 would be end, right now...I dont particulary like him in a 3-4 that much either but, he can play in any defense and at the nose. That is what I was getting at...last year this was talked about a lot, it was overkill. If the Dolphins drafted him, it wouldnt be just to play end. In fact, everyone who had him going to the Dolphins talked about him playing NT. The value in a player like him came from the ability to play multiple poisitions in multiple schemes. The "size" issue with 3-4 NTs is becoming less of an issue, considering we're seeing smaller and smaller NTs. Even Mayock loved Sed Ellis at the 3-4 nose at 300 lbs. Given Dorsey's strength and ability to take on multiple blockers, he can play the nose. It's not a match made in heaven but, the ability to do so is there....Or if the Chiefs wanted to implement a one-gap 3-4...Dorsey could be a lot like the Cowboys Ratliff. But again, I agree that Tank Tyler or an outside player would be manning the nose position for them.

But again, put me in with the group that thinks a move to 3-4 shouldnt be done at all.

Menardo75 · 02-08-2009, 01:25 AM

Brian Johnston could be a great fit at 3-4 outside linebacker.

TonyGfortheTD · 02-08-2009, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menardo75

Brian Johnston could be a great fit at 3-4 outside linebacker.

I agree. Without any FA's or draft picks, this is what a 3-4 alignment would currently look like.

DE: Alphonso Boone/Turk McBride NT: Tank Tyler/Ron Edwards DE: Glenn Dorsey

OLB: Tamba Hali ILB: Derrick Johnson ILB: Donnie Edwards OLB: Demorrio Williams/Brian Johnston

CB: Brandon Flowers FS: Jarrad Page SS: Bernard Pollard CB: Brandon Carr

The main issue right off the bat in my opinion would be the nose tackle situation. I don't think running a 3-4 D would be a disaster or there is a huge overall void of talent on the Defense. I think a lot of the woes last season had to do with poor scheme and how Gun and Herm were trying to use players.

The line overall would need to be upgraded though and better quality at LB would be helpful.

Menardo75 · 02-08-2009, 01:57 AM

Tyler is a perfect fit for the NT, in fact that's what a lot of people were looking to draft him as. Edwards, and Johnson are perfect fits at ILB, but I don't think Hali would be a great 3-4 OLB nor would Williams. Orakpo, or Everette Brown would be nice additions.

TonyGfortheTD · 02-08-2009, 02:10 AM

The Chiefs actually flirted with Tamba Hali dropping back from DE to LB when he was a rookie and the results were actually favorable.

I agree on the notation about Demorrio Williams being a bad fit in a 3-4 though. The linebacker situation will need a lot of attention regardless of the D that is ran, though. Don't think Donnie Edwards can play a full season any longer.

Tank Tyler at NT would be interesting to watch.

I'm probably in the minority that thinks the Chiefs should install the 3-4 if Pioli brings in some veterans tailored to run it to help the younger guys transition over and an experienced coordinator like Romeo Crennel.

Menardo75 · 02-08-2009, 02:19 AM

If I were them I would Hire Romeo and make the transistion, you would basically be starting from the same spot no matter what scheme you run sadley.

TonyGfortheTD · 02-08-2009, 02:28 AM

I agree completely. Regardless of the scheme they run, the Chiefs will have to invest quite a bit of picks into the front 7 and the next set of Defensive coaches will have to reteach the players how to play with proper technique.

They weren't even doing the 4-3 well, so might as well take the plunge now and switch to the D Pioli has always drafted players for.