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Old 02-09-2009, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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He's a horrible play caller that builds no kind of rhythm or balance.
But his system has allowed Romo to do good things in it. Is Garrett on the field or in the boothe?
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Romo would be a lot better off without Garrett...as would the rest of the team. I posted a pretty long explanation of what is wrong with Garrett on the previous page, if you havent seen it.
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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He doesnt know how to ultize the weapons he has and he has over simplified his offense so much that opposing teams are calling out our plays as soon as we get out of the huddle. Ray Lewis, Dick Lebeau, Deshea Townsend among others. Have all had comments about knowing what play Garrett was going to call next, how we have the most predictable offense in the league, the most redundant playcalling....etc. Garrett's playbook is shallow and his playcalling is stale. He doesnt know anything about playcalling. He doesnt know how to establish rhythm, with a rhythm Qb no less and when we do find something, he always finds a way to mess that up.

He was handed the job and was not ready for it...he had great success for about 12 or so games in his first year here but, as soon as teams caught on to what he was doing, it has been a constant battle to maintain a consistantly good offense with him in charge. He is a major problem and I'd go as far as saying, the biggest problem this team has right now. Most of us were praying someone would be stupid enough to take him off of our hands...then this whole Reeves thing came up and gave us a little hope. Considering Reeves would have been mentoring Garrett and reportedly would have had a major role in coaching the offense....but, JJ went and messed that up...so, now we're stuck with the uselss Garrett trying to figure things out on his own, all over again. blah.

Over simplified offense? The question would be more on the coaches in the box. You do realize calling games on the sideline is nearly impossible at ANY football level. This would mean you need a strong set of position coaches in the boothe. That is one HUGE UNDERRATED aspect of football which fans tend to pass on.

How are your coaches in the boothe? Who is responsible for helping Garrett out? What are their roles in the boothe come gameday? Same can be said for Kildrive and the other coaches for my team, for the fans that say the same stuff you're saying, but the contrary, that our offense is too damn complex.

I am not saying your wrong, and that sounds about accurate, that teams can adapt to your scheme based on many games of tape. But a valid question is how good are your position coaches? What the heck are they doing in the boothe? Are they giving him good information? I been in the boothe where the offensive coach sucked! He was stating the obvious and didn't help at all with what suggestion to give to counter the opposing defense. That to me, would anger me ALOT!

Also, organization is a big issue. How does Garrett organize his call sheet? How many plays from the previous game does he carry over to the upcoming game? Is he listening to other coaches input or is Wade telling him what to run.

I am sure some of the stuff you are saying may be accurate but usually there is ALOT more that goes down behind the scenes that fans would never know.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Firstly, Wade Phillips has no authority over Jason Garrett and his playcalling. Garrett is in charge and is calling every play for our offense. As for the guys upstairs...John Garrett, Jason's brother, is more or less the primary relay man up there. I've never questioned the guys we have looking from above, really...Garrett in the end, is the man who makes the final decision on what is called. He has complete control, he's a pass heavy/pass first guy who is going to do w/e he wants regardless...just like the Andy Reid's and Mike Martz's of the world. But, there is a major difference in the plays he is actually sending in. His entire system is constantlty referred to as overly simple and unimaginative, Roy Williams, was the most recent to come out and talk about it. Saying how shocked he was that the Lions playbook was much more complex and deep. He even commented on the fact that opposing corners kept asking him why he was constantly running the same routes in our offense...and he had to ask if he they could add some slants. Garrett really is completely clueless...and he has no idea how to adjust to his talent's strengths.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Over simplified offense? The question would be more on the coaches in the box. You do realize calling games on the sideline is nearly impossible at ANY football level. This would mean you need a strong set of position coaches in the boothe. That is one HUGE UNDERRATED aspect of football which fans tend to pass on.

How are your coaches in the boothe? Who is responsible for helping Garrett out? What are their roles in the boothe come gameday? Same can be said for Kildrive and the other coaches for my team, for the fans that say the same stuff you're saying, but the contrary, that our offense is too damn complex.

I am not saying your wrong, and that sounds about accurate, that teams can adapt to your scheme based on many games of tape. But a valid question is how good are your position coaches? What the heck are they doing in the boothe? Are they giving him good information? I been in the boothe where the offensive coach sucked! He was stating the obvious and didn't help at all with what suggestion to give to counter the opposing defense. That to me, would anger me ALOT!

Also, organization is a big issue. How does Garrett organize his call sheet? How many plays from the previous game does he carry over to the upcoming game? Is he listening to other coaches input or is Wade telling him what to run.

I am sure some of the stuff you are saying may be accurate but usually there is ALOT more that goes down behind the scenes that fans would never know.
You're right about that... It takes someone who's a real expert to call the game from the field. It's done more commonly than you'd think though.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Firstly, Wade Phillips has no authority over Jason Garrett and his playcalling. Garrett is in charge and is calling every play for our offense. As for the guys upstairs...John Garrett, Jason's brother, is more or less the primary relay man up there. I've never questioned the guys we have looking from above, really...Garrett in the end, is the man who makes the final decision on what is called. He has complete control, he's a pass heavy/pass first guy who is going to do w/e he wants regardless...just like the Andy Reid's and Mike Martz's of the world. But, there is a major difference in the plays he is actually sending in. His entire system is constantlty referred to as overly simple and unimaginative, Roy Williams, was the most recent to come out and talk about it. Saying how shocked he was that the Lions playbook was much more complex and deep. He even commented on the fact that opposing corners kept asking him why he was constantly running the same routes in our offense...and he had to ask if he they could add some slants. Garrett really is completely clueless...and he has no idea how to adjust to his talent's strengths.
Do you know this because you have sources close to the team that Wade doesn't have authority or are you guessing?

Actually you should question the guys up in the boothe because they dictate what play should be called based on what the defense is showing. That's why you scout opposing defense to figure out what they show and how you beat it. So the guys upstairs have to do their part and giving Garrett all sorts of information.

Well AR is a WCO guy if I am not mistaken, while Mike Martz is an Air Coryell guy. So that makes sense that they value throwing the ball over running it. That's the system these guys were groomed in or exposed to.

I will have to watch more Dallas games next year to get a sense. I know sometime in the future I am supposed to meet with JG's dad for an interview. So I will ask this stuff to him and get a sense of what actually is happening. I know Coach Campo on your staff, but since he is a def. guy, I doubt he really knows the details. But I will ask my dad's friend to ask Camp what the deal is too. I am kind of curious to what goes on.

But the guys upstairs for ALL teams are important for the OC, especially if the OC is downstairs.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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You're right about that... It takes someone who's a real expert to call the game from the field. It's done more commonly than you'd think though.
It's very hard to it because it happens to fast, you only focus on certain things. For instance I want to know against a 4-3 D against a 2 X 1 set, if the flat is open when they play C 3. So, as an OC, may focus on that. Say the pass is incomplete or picked, I may ask upstairs what happened.

The coach will then tell me, they were in a 4-3 over front, and my QB missed the read. He skipped the 2nd read in his progression and hit Y instead of Z. So many things can happen.

I found myself hating to be on the sideline as a coach. If I am ever lucky to be an OC at any level, I am calling plays from upstairs. I like it better because I can see everything. And I get to personally tell the coaches with me what to look for, and get info quicker.
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Old 02-09-2009, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Do you know this because you have sources close to the team that Wade doesn't have authority or are you guessing?

Actually you should question the guys up in the boothe because they dictate what play should be called based on what the defense is showing. That's why you scout opposing defense to figure out what they show and how you beat it. So the guys upstairs have to do their part and giving Garrett all sorts of information.

Well AR is a WCO guy if I am not mistaken, while Mike Martz is an Air Coryell guy. So that makes sense that they value throwing the ball over running it. That's the system these guys were groomed in or exposed to.

I will have to watch more Dallas games next year to get a sense. I know sometime in the future I am supposed to meet with JG's dad for an interview. So I will ask this stuff to him and get a sense of what actually is happening. I know Coach Campo on your staff, but since he is a def. guy, I doubt he really knows the details. But I will ask my dad's friend to ask Camp what the deal is too. I am kind of curious to what goes on.

But the guys upstairs for ALL teams are important for the OC, especially if the OC is downstairs.
It's a commonly known fact that Wade has no authority over Garrett. We all know that the guys in the booth are there to supply the coordinator with information but, the coordinator makes the final decision on what is called. Now Wade's son, Wesley, is up in the booth but, Wade himself has no real say in what Garrett calls. But anyway, there are major playcalling problems but, like I said the playbook itself and the game planning happen to be problems as well. You want to point the finger at the guys in the booth? That's just fine but, Garrett deserves the majority of the blame....considering he is the head offensive coach and the one making the final decisions. Unless, he learns real fast...I wouldnt expect him to make it past this upcoming season in big D. He was extremely green and is his lack of experience has shown.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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It's a commonly known fact that Wade has no authority over Garrett. We all know that the guys in the booth are there to supply the coordinator with information but, the coordinator makes the final decision on what is called. Now Wade's son, Wesley, is up in the booth but, Wade himself has no real say in what Garrett calls. But anyway, there are major playcalling problems but, like I said the playbook itself and the game planning happen to be problems as well. You want to point the finger at the guys in the booth? That's just fine but, Garrett deserves the majority of the blame....considering he is the head offensive coach and the one making the final decisions. Unless, he learns real fast...I wouldnt expect him to make it past this upcoming season in big D. He was extremely green and is his lack of experience has shown.
Then I wonder how much authority Wade has as a HC. A HC ALWAYS has final say. He is the boss, in the end he gets fired, and catches the heat. I would then wonder how the coaching dynamic is within your staff. Obviously that's a HUGE problem if it's true that Wade has no say over JG.

I understand he makes the final call, but the guys in the boothe have to give him proper info. If they can't somehow do that in an effective way, then how is JG supposed to fix the problem you claim? It's a simple cause and effect relationship. If you are the OC, and I stink at giving you in game advice then you won't be able to call the right plays. Now that may not fix the system, but the in game playcalling will suffer. So yeah it's JG, but it's just as much of a fault as your other guys in the boothe as well.

I will have to see in detail next season. I plan on doing breakdowns for other teams as well starting next season if I can find time. But system problem and in game calling plays are two different issues. You can say the system is the problem and it very well could be if it's his system, but in game playcalling is a component of the guys in the boothe giving you USEFUL information. If they suck at their job, then your job calling plays on sunday will suffer.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Alrighty...see for yourself next season. Hopefully, we'll see some miracle growth but, I'm not holding my breath.

As for the whole Wade/Garrett thing. There has been a lot surfacing on the "power struggle" that is going on there. Because, Wade is in fact not happy with the fact that he has no say in what goes on w/ the offense. Garrett on the other hand doesnt like that Wade is putting the onus on him to dicipline his offensive unit. The fact that Jerry handed Garrett his job in the 1st place instead of letting Wade pick a coordinator doesnt sit well with Wade, I believe. It hasnt been a pretty off-season concerning these two. The team isnt the only place we lack chemistry.

And in addition to the Garrett hate...you see there is a reason Dan Reeves was being brought in to be heavily involved in coaching up our offense and being a "mentor" for Garrett. The team and JJ seem to have lost a lot of faith in Jason and rightfully so, imo.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Alrighty...see for yourself next season. Hopefully, we'll see some miracle growth but, I'm not holding my breath.

As for the whole Wade/Garrett thing. There has been a lot surfacing on the "power struggle" that is going on there. Because, Wade is in fact not happy with the fact that he has no say in what goes on w/ the offense. Garrett on the other hand doesnt like that Wade is putting the onus on him to dicipline his offensive unit. The fact that Jerry handed Garrett his job in the 1st place instead of letting Wade pick a coordinator doesnt sit well with Wade, I believe. It hasnt been a pretty off-season concerning these two. The team isnt the only place we lack chemistry.

And in addition to the Garrett hate...you see there is a reason Dan Reeves was being brought in to be heavily involved in coaching up our offense and being a "mentor" for Garrett. The team and JJ seem to have lost a lot of faith in Jason and rightfully so, imo.

I think you bring up very valid points, but I am just saying there is alot more in terms of the big picture that effects what you are talking about or your stance on the issue. That's all I am trying to say. I do the same for those on our boards that go off on Kildrive, yet don't see the big picture. But they claim the offense is too complex.

If lack of coaching chemistry exists then that's Jones's fault for butting in. That's why your HC has total control. If your OC wants to run the ball, and the HC says let's pass it on 3rd and short, you may disagree, but you DO what he says. There were many times our OC hated running since he was a spread offense guy, but he sucked it up and listened. If there is no clear cut division in power then that's Jones's fault.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. But I would love to see what the guys upstairs are actually doing.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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It's very hard to it because it happens to fast, you only focus on certain things. For instance I want to know against a 4-3 D against a 2 X 1 set, if the flat is open when they play C 3. So, as an OC, may focus on that. Say the pass is incomplete or picked, I may ask upstairs what happened.

The coach will then tell me, they were in a 4-3 over front, and my QB missed the read. He skipped the 2nd read in his progression and hit Y instead of Z. So many things can happen.

I found myself hating to be on the sideline as a coach. If I am ever lucky to be an OC at any level, I am calling plays from upstairs. I like it better because I can see everything. And I get to personally tell the coaches with me what to look for, and get info quicker.
Yeah, a lot of it is just preference. A lot of guys just like being immersed in the action, you see lots of former players going this route. Others love the benefits of being able to see the entire field, no emotions, like you're just watching film. There are obvious benefits to seeing the entire field up there but, the sidelines have there advantages as well...better actual feel for the game and direct contact with the players, most importantly, your Qb. Whatever works best for you.
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Last edited by M.O.T.H. : 02-09-2009 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:25 PM    (permalink
M.O.T.H.
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M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.M.O.T.H. is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
I think you bring up very valid points, but I am just saying there is alot more in terms of the big picture that effects what you are talking about or your stance on the issue. That's all I am trying to say. I do the same for those on our boards that go off on Kildrive, yet don't see the big picture. But they claim the offense is too complex.

If lack of coaching chemistry exists then that's Jones's fault for butting in. That's why your HC has total control. If your OC wants to run the ball, and the HC says let's pass it on 3rd and short, you may disagree, but you DO what he says. There were many times our OC hated running since he was a spread offense guy, but he sucked it up and listened. If there is no clear cut division in power then that's Jones's fault.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. But I would love to see what the guys upstairs are actually doing.
I'd certainly agree that a lot of the problems we're seeing now should be placed directly on Jerry Jones.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, a lot of it is just preference. A lot of guys just like being immersed in the action, you see lots of former players going this route. Others love the benefits of being able to see the entire field, no emotions, like you're just watching film. There are obvious benefits to seeing the entire field up there but, the sidelines have there advantages as well...better actual feel for the game and direct contact with the players, most importantly, your Qb.
Yeah i heard alot of OCs like to talk to the players and communicate everything. Which basically comes down to do you want to be there talking to the players and telling them first hand what to do OR do you like sitting upstairs, and seeing what the defense is doing first hand and can fix it. Then you can tell the position coaches downstairs what is going on. But yeah it's a preference thing.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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It's unlikely that anybody wants to pick up the rest of Owen's contract. He's past his prime and likely only going to be less effective with each coming season. At his age many player's effectiveness can go downhill real fast.
Absolutely, plus because TO is TO, he seems to be a person that can't accept hius dimishing skills so he'll only act out more and more the older he gets blaming others for hs shortcomings.

Honestly I think the NFL should wash their hands of him. The way the MLB did Barry Bonds. Bonds still has DH ability, but because of the baggae and problems and age and ego they just washed their hands of him and completely ignored him. The same should be done with TO. He is never going to regain that end of his San Fran ability or 1rst year with the Eagles. His skills have diminshed drastically and its time for the NFL to just move on. At least Moss still has deep speed and leaping ability and has learned to shut the **** up now that he is with a legit contender. TO has been playing for a legit team and still hasn't lost the chip on his shoulder. Its time for the NFL to completely ignore him and let him drift away into oblivion.
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