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Old 03-10-2009, 08:57 AM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
because lists are stupid. if people actually took the time to explain why THEY think so and so is better than the other guy, cool. but a lame 1-10 ranking? completely and unequivocally not interesting.
There we go. Classic example of someone who takes things a little to serious to have a little fun. Why go into this post if you just want to rip it? You know what it is when you go into it.

If someone makes a list, and someone is unsure how someone made that list, they can respond and say 'why did so and so make it', and that can lead to discussion and new things learned, brought to light, etc. Someone can make the list and say why, or they can make a list and spark discussion. Pretty sure if you put someone in the list, that speaks for itself - they think he's a top 10 DE! Just posting something like 'this is stupid' doesn't raise new ideas, contribute, or anything else that is positive. I for one am interested in seeing people's views and will question why someone is in a list if i don't agree. Potential homerism? Very possible. However those people probably watch that player a fair bit and have an appreciation and understanding of what they do on the field. IF that person is an idiot, it can be recognized and discredited.

Not 'attacking' you or anything, i just don't get why you have to have such a strong negative opinion about something like this, and why you would even both to post something if you clearly think it is stupid....some things aren't for everyone, and even if you don't agree, having an open mind may lead you to learn something you don't know...if there is anything on that subject you don't already know...
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You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:52 AM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
hardly. i further didn't go into "this post" just to rip it. i was reading a thread i thought might be interesting, and found an opinion i disagreed with. should i not do that? should we hold hands and sing kumbaya and pretend that everyone everywhere agrees with everything YOU say?



i couldn't care less that someone is on the list at #6. i want to know why they're on it above the #7 guy and below the #5 guy. i've further NEVER simply posted "this is stupid" in response to anything serious, and i'm actually a little disgusted that you'd suggest that any part of my post even implied that response. i'm quite sure i described why posting lists is stupid in addition to the rest of my post. but boy am i glad to know that you think player x is top ten. my understanding of the nfl and teams i don't get to see much of has dramatically increased, solely because i now know you think he's the 6th best DE.



pot, meet kettle. but i'm sure you don't think you're a complete hypocrite.



someone telling me that they think mario williams is better than julius peppers and not bothering to explain why is not in any way whatsoever instructive and thus leads to no learning whatsoever. which is why it's stupid. further, it requires no critical thought whatsoever to randomly throw some names at a wall and see what order they happen to stick in. a 4 year old could do that. given that this is an nfl board where people represent themselves (poorly in some cases) as knowing something about the sport, one would expect that they would be capable of doing a little bit better.

oh, right. kumbaya and ****.
Hahaha. You are obviously right. I'll leave you alone. Thanks for your insights, and keep up the good discussion.
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You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:53 AM    (permalink
The Great Jonathan Vilma
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh, right. kumbaya and ****.
HAHAHA, you certainly are a badass.
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You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I just had crazy dejavu after reading Great Jon Vilma/njx's posts....
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Old 03-10-2009, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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However you decide to start you list, Mario Williams should be on top of it.
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Old 03-11-2009, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Solomon View Post
Interesting to see Mathis on that list and no Freeney. I wonder who most Colts fans think is the best DE out of the two.

Personally I feel that Aaron Kampman should be on that list somewhere but I guess if he is moving to OLB then he won't be an end next year.

When healthy Patrick Kerney could be on that list too.
I'm a colts fan and I would say Freeney is better. Thats just my opinion. He faces more double teams and so the line thins over on Mathis' side so its kinda like Freeney doing the alley and Mathis doing the hoop, if you will.
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Old 03-15-2009, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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I don't think about categorizing DE's much. The reason being is that most DE's in the 3-4 could pass for DT's in a 4-3 and undersized DE's in the 4-3 could pass for linebackers. Although I would want to see how Peppers would be used in the 3-4 if he was traded to one of those teams. So to me DE's are better defined in the 4-3 and I'll just stick with the traditional view.

I'm gonna group some guys cuz really some are 2 close to debate on.

Mario Williams/ Julius Peppers- Both of these guys are physical specimens with good motors and comparable skills, I'm not nitpicking these are the top 2 guys.

Jared Allen/ Osi Ominyuria/ Pat Kerney Yeah two of these guys were injured, but healthy I think they all make an impact. They are equally effective against both run and pass.

Justin Tuck/ John Abraham/ Dwight Freeney/ Robert Mathis/ Trent Cole all these guys are comparable, I think the variation in their strentgh against the run keeps them roughly even.

By the way I saw someone say Aaron Kampman, but I didn't include him here because I'm not sure if he'll remain a DE or shift to LB, as of now Peppers is still in a traditional 4-3, but if he moved to a 3-4 I'm not sure how that would affect his effectiveness.
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Old 03-15-2009, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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I don't think about categorizing DE's much. The reason being is that most DE's in the 3-4 could pass for DT's in a 4-3 and undersized DE's in the 4-3 could pass for linebackers. Although I would want to see how Peppers would be used in the 3-4 if he was traded to one of those teams. So to me DE's are better defined in the 4-3 and I'll just stick with the traditional view.

I'm gonna group some guys cuz really some are 2 close to debate on.

Mario Williams/ Julius Peppers- Both of these guys are physical specimens with good motors and comparable skills, I'm not nitpicking these are the top 2 guys.

Jared Allen/ Osi Ominyuria/ Pat Kerney Yeah two of these guys were injured, but healthy I think they all make an impact. They are equally effective against both run and pass.

Justin Tuck/ John Abraham/ Dwight Freeney/ Robert Mathis/ Trent Cole all these guys are comparable, I think the variation in their strentgh against the run keeps them roughly even.

By the way I saw someone say Aaron Kampman, but I didn't include him here because I'm not sure if he'll remain a DE or shift to LB, as of now Peppers is still in a traditional 4-3, but if he moved to a 3-4 I'm not sure how that would affect his effectiveness.
That is a horrid list. Kerney over Tuck, Cole, Freeney and Abraham? That is almost laughable. Kerney is old and on the decline and he is coming off an injury.
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Old 03-15-2009, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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That is a horrid list. Kerney over Tuck, Cole, Freeney and Abraham? That is almost laughable. Kerney is old and on the decline and he is coming off an injury.
My bad I forgot about his age.
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Old 03-15-2009, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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I think Justin Smith deserves honorable mention. He isn't a sack machine but he is 100% motor and a monster.
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Any list that doesn't have Jared Allen in the top 2-3 just shouldn't be created.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bored of education View Post
Any list that doesn't have Jared Allen in the top 2-3 just shouldn't be created.
Mario Williams
Julius Peppers
Osi Umenyiora
John Abraham

I think those are all guys you can make a very strong case for over Allen.
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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Mario Williams
Julius Peppers
Osi Umenyiora
John Abraham

I think those are all guys you can make a very strong case for over Allen.
Well I wouldn't say any are above him, but could be on the same level. I think you can make more of a case for those people not being as good or consistant as Allen more so than a case that they are better. I will use some quick blurbs about each (only Williams I struggled with) People say that Allen can't stop the run obviously haven't watched Abraham and his 2 tackles per game and 10 sacks per season over the last 3 years. Peppers wasn't even relevent two years ago and has a very solid season, but that inconsistant season where he might as well have been on IR makes me think ehhh, not so much. Can I trust Peppers or will have only have 4.0 sacks and not want to play and be a *****. Osi can't stay on the field., but his game is nice while there so he might be in the same sentence.

But I just think JA's overall skillset has not overriding weaknesss. He is solid enough at the run where his supreme pass rushing abilites just overshadows that.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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Well I wouldn't say any are above him, but could be on the same level. I think you can make more of a case for those people not being as good or consistant as Allen more so than a case that they are better. I will use some quick blurbs about each (only Williams I struggled with) People say that Allen can't stop the run obviously haven't watched Abraham and his 2 tackles per game and 10 sacks per season over the last 3 years. Peppers wasn't even relevent two years ago and has a very solid season, but that inconsistant season where he might as well have been on IR makes me think ehhh, not so much. Can I trust Peppers or will have only have 4.0 sacks and not want to play and be a *****. Osi can't stay on the field., but his game is nice while there so he might be in the same sentence.

But I just think JA's overall skillset has not overriding weaknesss. He is solid enough at the run where his supreme pass rushing abilites just overshadows that.
I don't think any of the players I listed are any more of a threat to miss time than Jared Allen. Any injuries they've had seem to be more bad luck than being injury-prone. Plus, you don't have the character concerns with those players like you do with Allen who has a history of trouble off-the-field.

I was mostly just referring to your comment about how any list without Allen in the top 2 or 3 is useless. I think that's a pretty outlandish statement to make because, like I said, there are several players you could easily rank above him. I mean I think even a guy like Aaron Kampman can compare favourably to Jared Allen depending on who you ask.
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Old 03-15-2009, 09:59 PM    (permalink
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boe...Osi's been hurt once... :/

but him Mario and Allen are top 3. and I'm not exactly a JA fan, so that's hard for me to say...
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Old 03-15-2009, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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I'd take Mario Williams or Julius Peppers over anyone on these lists, but I have to admit, when they are fully healthy, I think Will Smith and Charles Grant are really underrated, they are 10 sack kinda guys that are monsters in the run game.

If our secondary and interior line play weren't so god awful the past few years, I think people would appreciate them more. This year should have been better, but they both ended up injured, with Smith trying to play through a sports hernia and Grant ending his year shortly, and Sed ellis played well to help free them up, but was also hurt.

Le-sigh, hopefully our secondary can hold up this year and let them get after the QB more, I'm praying for good health....
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Old 03-16-2009, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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A really?

Mario then everyone else. Sorry but Mario is going into his 4th year and is only 24 years old won't reach his prime for at least another2-3 years, yeah he is the best and will be the best for the next 6-10 years.

1. Mario Williams









2. Jared Allen
3. Justin Tuck
4. Julius Peppers (but he might be an OLB in New England)
5. John Abraham
6. Dwight Freeney
7. Aaron Kampman
8. Gaines Adams
9. Will Smith
10. Osi Unmenyora

Mario is on his way to becoming the best defensive player in the league, especially with Fat Albert starting to act nuts and the fact that he has been paid so had nothing to play for anymore. Mario will be the best defensive player in the 2009 season and will be an All-pro for the next 5 years. Prepare to worship him the way people worshipped Bruce and Reggie. Because it's coming.


Oh, and my Mario thread is about 5 months away, but believe you me it's coming.
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Old 03-16-2009, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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Jared is hasn't peaked yet. But Mario is a beast. I hope he is a beast for being a 1st overall pick!
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-16-2009, 09:11 PM    (permalink
scottyboy
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dear all people putting Tuck ahead of Osi on your lists. you're wrong. Granted Osi was hurt last year, but please mention that. Osi is a better DE than Tuck. end of story. Tuck is more versatile being able to play inside, but all around, Osi is the better DE. (although both are easily top 10 and both rock my socks and I love them both foreverz)
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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yep, osi > Tuck, although tuck's still improving and hasn't really peaked yet so it could get a lot closer this season. Both have a case for the top 5 but I'm taking osi every time, at least for now.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:53 AM    (permalink
Mr. Hero
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Mario
He's a freak, he hasn't become the clear cut top DE yet, but I think he's got the best case as he's really a force against the run and pass without anyone to take attention from him.

JA
Remarkable pass rusher who's off the field concerns hamper his case for the top DE spot.

Osi
Am I being a homer? Possible but I don't think so, he's coming off of injury but in TC Osi was looking the best he's ever looked and when osi's on, no LT can handle him one on one. I injury questions are all that's keeping him behind JA and Mario for now, if they don't improve next season and Osi's healthy and ballin I'll move him up.

John Abraham
Yeah, he's weak against the run, but Abraham just gets sacks, his penetration is great for the position and he's taken Freeney's spot as the best pure pass rushing DE in the NFL, now if only he could better channel his penetration against the run, then I'll feel comfortable making a case for him to be top three.

Tuck
Kid's moving up, he's still not on Osi's level but his versatility on the line is huge and he's very effective against the run and pass.

Peppers
Another just freakish athlete, unfortunately Peppers has been underwhelming for a few years now and maybe a change of scenery will help him become a consistent force which could move him up this list. His ability keeps him this high, but his production keeps him from moving higher.

Kampman
No ridiculous athlete but a very smart pass rusher with a great motor that also makes him a very good run stuffer. If he had half of Peppers' athletic ability he'd be ahead of abraham on this list.

Freeney
Still a great pass rusher who draws a lot of attention and is a guy you have to pay great attention to, that said his poor play against the run hurts him in a ranking against complete DEs.

Trent Cole
A very strong pass rusher and under-rated run stopper, the man has some osi in him although his pass rush arsenal isn't quite as polish or developed yet.

There's a top nine, not really sure who to give the ten spot to so I'mma just end it there.

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Old 03-17-2009, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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Why is your posted formatted so funny?
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
Why is your posted formatted so funny?
forgot to but spaces between the explanations and the next guy on the list, that and I didn't number them because my keyboard's kind of screwy, the three key doesn't work and I'm too lazy to copy and past a three.
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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forgot to but spaces between the explanations and the next guy on the list, that and I didn't number them because my keyboard's kind of screwy, the three key doesn't work and I'm too lazy to copy and past a three.
O ok I was wondering, I tried reading the first paragraph I think it was and then stopped because it was annoying on the eyes. So I was just curious.
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Old 03-17-2009, 11:39 AM    (permalink
Mr. Hero
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I re-spaced it so it should be a little easier on the eyes now.
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