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Old 03-09-2009, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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Default Mayock says AVOID STAFFORD!

He didn't say it in all caps like that.. but anyways..

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf...void_draf.html

Mike Mayock, the draft analyst for NFL Network, was a guest on WJR tonight, joining hosts Ken Brown and Mike O'Hara. Here are some highlights from that interview (and the Detroit Lions fans who are hoping the team drafts Georgia quarterback Matt Stafford might be a little disappointed with Mayock's opinions):

--- Mayock said he believes that 2009 will be an average draft class without much star power in the top 10. He believes the draft is deep at outside linebacker and tight end but weak at guard and inside linebacker.

--- Mayock pointed out that of the last 11 underclassmen quarterbacks to be drafted in the first round, only two have been successful - Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rogers. Mayock pointed out a laundry list of failures - Heath Shuler, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young, Alex Smith and, so far, JaMarcus Russell.

Mayock said that if the Lions make a mistake at quarterback with that pick, "they won't recover for five years.''

Mayock spoke very highly of Stafford, saying he has great arm strength and is a good athlete, but also said "There are some things about him that bother me. If I was the Lions, I'd take (Aaron) Curry or one of those left tackles (Jason Smith or Eugene Monroe).

"If you have any doubts about the kid, in my opinion, you have to pass. I told everybody last year that Matt Ryan was the guy. I have questions about the guy this year.''

--- Mayock said he sees some similarities between Stafford and Denver quarterback Jay Cutler, especially arm strength, but he sees one big difference. Mayock said Cutler played for a "horrible'' Vanderbilt team but always had his team in a position to win. Stafford, meanwhile, played with two elite receivers and an NFL-caliber running back and "sometimes he looked like Superman and sometimes he looked average ... I say 'Why?'''

--- Brown and O'Hara brought up the possibility that if the Lions drafted Curry, they might move him to middle linebacker but Mayock immediately shot that down. Mayock said Curry is the prototype SAM linebacker and shouldn't be moved.
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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He says that outside linebacker is deep but we should draft one #1 overall? Sorry, but if the Lions draft a strongside linebacker #1 overall, I'll kill myself.
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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people dismiss to easily how godawfull the oline of georgia has been the last few years
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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cRABTREE number 1
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by P-L View Post
He says that outside linebacker is deep but we should draft one #1 overall? Sorry, but if the Lions draft a strongside linebacker #1 overall, I'll kill myself.
I'll probably join you in the suicide routine if Aaron Curry is the pick, despite many Lions fans actually wanting it to happen. And I mean honestly, the difference between Stafford and Freeman is much bigger than the difference between Smith/Oher or Beatty. If the Lions go into next season with Elijah Price as the future, I will do some violent action (I'm pretty much out of ideal threats).
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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meh that guy doesn't know what hes talking about
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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I'll probably join you in the suicide routine if Aaron Curry is the pick, despite many Lions fans actually wanting it to happen.
I'll make it a threesome.
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Did Mayock seriously call Mohammed Massouquoi an "Elite WR?"

If he did than lolz all the way around.
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Old 03-09-2009, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Lions WMD View Post
He didn't say it in all caps like that.. but anyways..

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf...void_draf.html

Mike Mayock, the draft analyst for NFL Network, was a guest on WJR tonight, joining hosts Ken Brown and Mike O'Hara. Here are some highlights from that interview (and the Detroit Lions fans who are hoping the team drafts Georgia quarterback Matt Stafford might be a little disappointed with Mayock's opinions):

--- Mayock said he believes that 2009 will be an average draft class without much star power in the top 10. He believes the draft is deep at outside linebacker and tight end but weak at guard and inside linebacker.

--- Mayock pointed out that of the last 11 underclassmen quarterbacks to be drafted in the first round, only two have been successful - Ben Roethlisberger and Aaron Rogers. Mayock pointed out a laundry list of failures - Heath Shuler, Ryan Leaf, Vince Young, Alex Smith and, so far, JaMarcus Russell.

Mayock said that if the Lions make a mistake at quarterback with that pick, "they won't recover for five years.''

Mayock spoke very highly of Stafford, saying he has great arm strength and is a good athlete, but also said "There are some things about him that bother me. If I was the Lions, I'd take (Aaron) Curry or one of those left tackles (Jason Smith or Eugene Monroe).

"If you have any doubts about the kid, in my opinion, you have to pass. I told everybody last year that Matt Ryan was the guy. I have questions about the guy this year.''

--- Mayock said he sees some similarities between Stafford and Denver quarterback Jay Cutler, especially arm strength, but he sees one big difference. Mayock said Cutler played for a "horrible'' Vanderbilt team but always had his team in a position to win. Stafford, meanwhile, played with two elite receivers and an NFL-caliber running back and "sometimes he looked like Superman and sometimes he looked average ... I say 'Why?'''

--- Brown and O'Hara brought up the possibility that if the Lions drafted Curry, they might move him to middle linebacker but Mayock immediately shot that down. Mayock said Curry is the prototype SAM linebacker and shouldn't be moved.
I'd like to know who the two "elite" receivers are. Massaquoi? He's a good posession WR but far from elite. He's not fast or elusive and he had the drops for most of his career. Elite WRs do not get booed off the field and are benched for dropping passes. Green? A true freshman who was still learning the offense and had a groin injury most of the year? Green is going to be a force to be reckoned with in the future, but he was not one his freshman year. He ran the wrong routes frequently.

And I agree with whomever mentioned Georgia's inexperienced offensive line. Having two good WR and RB can only get you so far if the freshmen and sophomores blocking in front of you are getting manhandled by SEC defensive linemen week in and week out.

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Old 03-09-2009, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan went to BC. Thats why Mayock loved him. Stafford has all the tools IMO. You just dont' draft a SAM LB at pick 1. You just don't, especially from Wake Freaking Forest. Stafford is a top 5 pick, with potential to be a franchise QB. He has started just as many games as many seniors and he's in a pro style offense. We need a QB, and if he works out we'll be able to compete in the North eventually. Especially if the Bears and Vikes are still looking for that Qb.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Mayock wants most teams to avoid making themselves better.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 03-10-2009, 06:09 AM    (permalink
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Default

Just a general inquiry. I'm a relatively new fan to the NFL so my knowledge of it's history is limited.

My question is, has a QB ever been drafted into a team that was floundering and managed to turn it around within the three or so seasons it takes for them to be considered a bust or for them to move on?

And when I say floundering I mean bottom three teams in the league at the time. So that means, the QB has no strong O-line or Running Back or Defence to fall back on.

Personally, I don't see Stafford becoming a great QB here, he might at a team which has some personnel for him to work, but here has little. CJ is really the only weapon he has, and while it's a great weapon, it's not gonna stop him from getting rushed constantly.

We need to fix our defence, which happens to be among the worst the league has ever seen. Curry would be a good choice, even though there seems to be this utterly stupid notion of not giving the safest and most likely best player in the draft his worth because he plays a certain position.

Monroe or J. Smith is also completely viable.

Also, for those people who say we can draft a stronger O-line with the picks we have later on in the draft should note that our defence needs help, if we spend 1 or 2 picks that high up on O-lineman, what's gonna be left for our shocking defence. Little, if any top talent, which is what we need.

Their will be other QB's in the future, whether it comes from the draft or from the Free Agency, we won't know. But to say not drafting Stafford is gonna be a big mistake is really pretty silly because there's just as much chance, if not a bigger chance, that drafting him will be just as big of a mistake.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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I find Mayock's comments to be a contradiction to where he has Stafford rated on his prospects list for the draft. He has Stafford rated as his #6 overall prospect. The 5 rated ahead of him are Curry, Crabtree, J. Smith, Orakpo and Munroe in that order.

So looking at those 5 pragmatically, should the Lions go with a LB at #1? I wouldn't mind it, but at the end of the day the answer is no...if they did it would be because it's the safest way to go, but not addressing the most pressing of needs. Crabtree? No. Orakpo? No...I would be shocked if they did. He projects better at OLB in 3-4 system anyways. That leaves us with two LT's in what is a deep class of quality LT's...meaning we can address OT (or better yet OG) likely at #33. Thus, Stafford has the best value based on Detroit's needs and Mayock's rating of him.

Imo, Mayock suffers from the same thing as the rest of us....far too much time to over-analyze the draft and who should draft what to the point where you start coming to illogical conclusions.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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Didn't Stafford have a not so good combine in terms of throwing the ball?
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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Stafford didn't throw at the combine.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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Stafford didn't throw at the combine.
Oh ok. Did he do anything?
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Hyperion Ecta View Post
Just a general inquiry. I'm a relatively new fan to the NFL so my knowledge of it's history is limited.

My question is, has a QB ever been drafted into a team that was floundering and managed to turn it around within the three or so seasons it takes for them to be considered a bust or for them to move on?

And when I say floundering I mean bottom three teams in the league at the time. So that means, the QB has no strong O-line or Running Back or Defence to fall back on.

Personally, I don't see Stafford becoming a great QB here, he might at a team which has some personnel for him to work, but here has little. CJ is really the only weapon he has, and while it's a great weapon, it's not gonna stop him from getting rushed constantly.

We need to fix our defence, which happens to be among the worst the league has ever seen. Curry would be a good choice, even though there seems to be this utterly stupid notion of not giving the safest and most likely best player in the draft his worth because he plays a certain position.

Monroe or J. Smith is also completely viable.

Also, for those people who say we can draft a stronger O-line with the picks we have later on in the draft should note that our defence needs help, if we spend 1 or 2 picks that high up on O-lineman, what's gonna be left for our shocking defence. Little, if any top talent, which is what we need.

Their will be other QB's in the future, whether it comes from the draft or from the Free Agency, we won't know. But to say not drafting Stafford is gonna be a big mistake is really pretty silly because there's just as much chance, if not a bigger chance, that drafting him will be just as big of a mistake.
Curry alone will not fix this defense, just like Stafford alone will not fix the offense(although we will be much closer if Stafford works out than if Curry works out in getting something fixed because of CJ and Kevin Smith and Gosder and even Bryant Johnson). Plus Stafford has more control with his release to help the Oline than Curry has. Curry has to react to the Dline and the opposing teams offense can avoid him through game planning. If Stafford is good, the other teams can't avoid him and QB is far more important of a position.

And why is Curry such a safe pick. LBs never get taken number 1. That doesn't sound very safe to me doing something that is never done in the NFL. Curry may be switched to Mike to make more of an impact because SAMs are probably the least important position in football other than kicker. So we take a guy number 1 and then switch his position. Not very safe sounding to me.

Everyone says Stafford will struggle without an Oline. What about Curry without a Dline. Ask Ray Lewis how he did in between Siragusa and Ngata. If any LB has blockers on them constantly, they usually struggle. Curry needs the defense built around him just like Stafford needs some of the Oline built around him. With any pick at number 1, we will have to build around them.

Finally, logic. 3 of the QBs next year are spread QBs. Pro style offense is greater than a spread QB. 2nd year pro is greater than rookie and IMO Stafford>McCoy,Bradford,Tebow. Who would be the 1st QB if all of them came out this year. Stafford IMO. Stafford going back to Georgia for a senior year isn't beneficial to the Lions. I'd rather him sit in the 09 and get NFL coaching and adjust to the league than have McCoy/Bradford learn some more spread garbage from Texas and OU coaches and then play some terrible defenses every week in the Big 12. And Tebow is a flat out winner but has to learn how to be a QB in the NFL because his mechanics are the worst out of all the QBs. He has 1 year under Loeffler to do it.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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2 elite WR's? He played with Green one year and when was Massaquoi ever elite? Stafford also played without a quality TE his whole career. If the Lions pass on Stafford they will regret it for a long time. Mayock is wrong on this one. Perhaps Lions fans have grown accustomed to having no franchise QB and being irrelevant for 50 years, so I guess it's no biggie to them, but Stafford will be a top NFL QB in a few years.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:58 AM    (permalink
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My question is, has a QB ever been drafted into a team that was floundering and managed to turn it around within the three or so seasons it takes for them to be considered a bust or for them to move on?
Colts took Peyton Manning #1 overall and two seasons later they went to the playoffs. Bengals took Carson Palmer #1 overall and two seasons later they made the playoffs. Atlanta reached the playoffs shortly after drafting both Mike Vick and Matt Ryan. The Chargers and Giants both made the playoffs after taking Philip Rivers and Eli Manning respectively.
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Old 03-10-2009, 09:08 AM    (permalink
Maybe Next Year Millen2
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And even the Steelers were 6-10 the year before Ben. I think every team that takes a QB very high in the draft is usually awful or stink because QB is so important and they don't have one. Sometimes they are just the missing pieice because they are so important and a good team is crap or just decent until they get a good QB and sometimes they have to carry a franchise on their back. We will have to hit on other picks for Stafford to win games but Stafford is a good start.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Curry alone will not fix this defense, just like Stafford alone will not fix the offense(although we will be much closer if Stafford works out than if Curry works out in getting something fixed because of CJ and Kevin Smith and Gosder and even Bryant Johnson). Plus Stafford has more control with his release to help the Oline than Curry has. Curry has to react to the Dline and the opposing teams offense can avoid him through game planning. If Stafford is good, the other teams can't avoid him and QB is far more important of a position.

And why is Curry such a safe pick. LBs never get taken number 1. That doesn't sound very safe to me doing something that is never done in the NFL. Curry may be switched to Mike to make more of an impact because SAMs are probably the least important position in football other than kicker. So we take a guy number 1 and then switch his position. Not very safe sounding to me.

Everyone says Stafford will struggle without an Oline. What about Curry without a Dline. Ask Ray Lewis how he did in between Siragusa and Ngata. If any LB has blockers on them constantly, they usually struggle. Curry needs the defense built around him just like Stafford needs some of the Oline built around him. With any pick at number 1, we will have to build around them.

Finally, logic. 3 of the QBs next year are spread QBs. Pro style offense is greater than a spread QB. 2nd year pro is greater than rookie and IMO Stafford>McCoy,Bradford,Tebow. Who would be the 1st QB if all of them came out this year. Stafford IMO. Stafford going back to Georgia for a senior year isn't beneficial to the Lions. I'd rather him sit in the 09 and get NFL coaching and adjust to the league than have McCoy/Bradford learn some more spread garbage from Texas and OU coaches and then play some terrible defenses every week in the Big 12. And Tebow is a flat out winner but has to learn how to be a QB in the NFL because his mechanics are the worst out of all the QBs. He has 1 year under Loeffler to do it.
I said that Curry is the safest pick because the consensus is that he is the best overall prospect. I also said that the Lions should not take him at #1 because he dosen't fill a pressng need....Stafford does. I'm not sure why you're trying to debate an issue which I conceded in my original post.

Next year's QBs are of no concern to me at the moment. I was attempting to logically illustrate a contradiction in Mayocks posted comments concerning Stafford relative to how he has him rated going into the draft.

Here's a simple way to put what I tried to explain: Of Mayock's top 6 prospects, only 3 could logically be chosen...either one of the 2 LT's or Stafford. Given that ratio assuming each player carries a relatively similar value, it makes no sense for Mayock to suggest that Detroit avoids him...ergo the contradiction.
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:19 AM    (permalink
Maybe Next Year Millen2
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I said that Curry is the safest pick because the consensus is that he is the best overall prospect. I also said that the Lions should not take him at #1 because he dosen't fill a pressng need....Stafford does. I'm not sure why you're trying to debate an issue which I conceded in my original post.

Next year's QBs are of no concern to me at the moment. I was attempting to logically illustrate a contradiction in Mayocks posted comments concerning Stafford relative to how he has him rated going into the draft.

Here's a simple way to put what I tried to explain: Of Mayock's top 6 prospects, only 3 could logically be chosen...either one of the 2 LT's or Stafford. Given that ratio assuming each player carries a relatively similar value, it makes no sense for Mayock to suggest that Detroit avoids him...ergo the contradiction.
I agree with you. I was debating with the poster above you, which is why I quoted him and not you. I agree with your post 100% on your lgoic. But Curry is really no safer in Detroit than Stafford. Curry needs a Dline and Stafford needs an Oline. Either way we need to build around them. And both "safeness" assumptions are based on potential by the media draft experts, which really means nothing. We really don't know what the actual NFL scouts think until after the draft.

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Old 03-10-2009, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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2 elite WR's? He played with Green one year and when was Massaquoi ever elite? Stafford also played without a quality TE his whole career. If the Lions pass on Stafford they will regret it for a long time. Mayock is wrong on this one. Perhaps Lions fans have grown accustomed to having no franchise QB and being irrelevant for 50 years, so I guess it's no biggie to them, but Stafford will be a top NFL QB in a few years.
Massaquoi is an elite college WR. He and Green both have great ability to nullify the many mistakes Stafford made with their superior athleticism. Maybe he's not that great of an option in the NFL, but in college, he's an elite talent for sure.
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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You know whats funny, the same situation we speak of him having at Georgia, well he is walking into almost the same thing if the Lions draft him.

Great WR and good rb, where Georgia had a good wr and good rb. Both teams have terrible O-lines at least thats what people keep telling me about Georgia. Ohh and he played in the SEC which is apparently like the closest thing to the NFL.
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Old 03-10-2009, 11:44 AM    (permalink
Maybe Next Year Millen2
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You know whats funny, the same situation we speak of him having at Georgia, well he is walking into almost the same thing if the Lions draft him.

Great WR and good rb, where Georgia had a good wr and good rb. Both teams have terrible O-lines at least thats what people keep telling me about Georgia. Ohh and he played in the SEC which is apparently like the closest thing to the NFL.
If he can get 30 wins like he did in college in 3 years and get better every year I'll be happy. Reality that won't happen but improvement in 2010 and 2011 is what I want to see.

But most likely he'll sit in 09 and then by 2010 it's time to see what he has. You'd be amazed how a quick release good decision making QB(which is essentially a franchise QB) can have an effect on an Oline. It won Georgia some ball games. And its not like this Oline will be the exact same in 2 or 3 years. At least it better not be or we have bigger problems with Mayhew.
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