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Old 03-21-2009, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Default Different 3-4 defences

What are the different types of 3-4 defence in the NFL? For example, New England's is different to Dallas'/San Diego's, right? 3-4s as a general rule play more man coverage in the secondary don't they, but I'd really appreciate hearing about the different responsibilities of each position in the front 7 in different 3-4s. I know some bits, but I'd rather hear an explanation from people who know better...

Thanks.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by irishbucsfan View Post
What are the different types of 3-4 defence in the NFL? For example, New England's is different to Dallas'/San Diego's, right? 3-4s as a general rule play more man coverage in the secondary don't they, but I'd really appreciate hearing about the different responsibilities of each position in the front 7 in different 3-4s. I know some bits, but I'd rather hear an explanation from people who know better...

Thanks.
I know the Packers, Steelers, Jets, KC, and Browns Pats 3-4 defenses run zone coverage scheme in the secondary, while the Cardinals, Dolphins, Cowboys, Ravens, Chargers, 49ers, and Broncos run a man coverage scheme in the secondary.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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That's interesting, I always associated the Packers with a massive amount of bump man coverage. I didn't know they were changing that this year.

Do you know what the responsibilities of ILBs are in the schemes? Because it's not like just having two 4-3 MLBs in there, or is it?
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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They also run a variation of gap assignments in the front 3. Some use a 0-Technique Nose Tackle and some utilize a 1-Gap penetrating Nose.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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That's interesting, I always associated the Packers with a massive amount of bump man coverage. I didn't know they were changing that this year.

Do you know what the responsibilities of ILBs are in the schemes? Because it's not like just having two 4-3 MLBs in there, or is it?
Yeah, our corners have always been very physical with almost all man coverage. I hate the fact that we'll be changing that.
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Old 03-21-2009, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, our corners have always been very physical with almost all man coverage. I hate the fact that we'll be changing that.
What are you guys gonna do with Al Harris? I suppose he should be ok in zone.
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Old 03-21-2009, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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That's interesting, I always associated the Packers with a massive amount of bump man coverage. I didn't know they were changing that this year.

Do you know what the responsibilities of ILBs are in the schemes? Because it's not like just having two 4-3 MLBs in there, or is it?
Lbers either rush the qb/rb or go back in zone coverage.
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Old 03-21-2009, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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Do you know what the responsibilities of ILBs are in the schemes? Because it's not like just having two 4-3 MLBs in there, or is it?
Indeed not. Jonathan Vilma is a prime example of an ILB who thrives in a 4-3 and struggles terribly in a 3-4.

Typically your 3-4 ILBs have to not only be able to defend the field from sideline-to-sideline but they have to be effective in disengaging from blocks. The TED or strongside ILB is routinely wanted to be a "thumper" (for lack of a better overutilized, corny term) because many schemes utilize his ability to disrupt the offenses blocking scheme in order to better free up the the MIKE ILB.

The fact that the MIKE and TED ILBs in a 3-4 scheme have so many responsibilities in both the run and pass defense, they are typically players that are well-rounded athletically.
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Old 03-21-2009, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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What are you guys gonna do with Al Harris? I suppose he should be ok in zone.
Harris has struggled in zone when we used it. We'll probably keep him, but he won't be as good as he was in man coverage. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trammon Williams replace Harris as a starter this season, as Williams is a better zone corner.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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Lbers either rush the qb/rb or go back in zone coverage.
Thanks for the in depth break down chief.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:40 AM    (permalink
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Harris has struggled in zone when we used it. We'll probably keep him, but he won't be as good as he was in man coverage. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trammon Williams replace Harris as a starter this season, as Williams is a better zone corner.
I personally can't see that happening. I think Harris should be able to use his physicality as a weapon in zone coverage. At least if I were a GB coach i'd want to play to that strength and set up coverages around that. Also, I figure we will still use a fair amount of man coverage so that will keep him in there.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:47 AM    (permalink
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I know the Packers, Steelers, Jets, KC, and Browns Pats 3-4 defenses run zone coverage scheme in the secondary, while the Cardinals, Dolphins, Cowboys, Ravens, Chargers, 49ers, and Broncos run a man coverage scheme in the secondary.
Just as a note, the Jets used a man/zone mix last year with Revis playing a lot of the man and the array of corners we used across from him usually in zones, and should be running a lot of man this year with the new scheme Ryan's bringing in.
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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I personally can't see that happening. I think Harris should be able to use his physicality as a weapon in zone coverage. At least if I were a GB coach i'd want to play to that strength and set up coverages around that. Also, I figure we will still use a fair amount of man coverage so that will keep him in there.
You guys will probably run a lot more cover two out of the 3-4, instead of deep third bail coverage with him.
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:06 AM    (permalink
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Just as a note, the Jets used a man/zone mix last year with Revis playing a lot of the man and the array of corners we used across from him usually in zones, and should be running a lot of man this year with the new scheme Ryan's bringing in.
Every team in the NFL runs a mix of zone and man. Though some teams may be base Cover 2 teams, every team runs both. The only team that runs almost exclusively one over the other is the Raiders. They run all man-to-man but have the only shut-down corner in the league.
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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I feel that the difference between the 3-4's is that one is meant to disguise it's coverages and blitzes and force you to be perfect and the other is meant to force turnovers and big yard losses.
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:37 AM    (permalink
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There was an article on a website that broke them down into 3 characteristics.

the 1 gap scheme utilized by Dallas
The 2 gap scheme utilized by Miami/NE
The 2 Gap Zone Blitz Scheme utilized by Pit.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:24 AM    (permalink
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There was an article on a website that broke them down into 3 characteristics.

the 1 gap scheme utilized by Dallas
The 2 gap scheme utilized by Miami/NE
The 2 Gap Zone Blitz Scheme utilized by Pit.
Could you link the article please? Or explain the exact differences between those? I always love learning more about Xs and Os.
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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Could you link the article please? Or explain the exact differences between those? I always love learning more about Xs and Os.
I think its pretty much to do with the nose technique. In Dallas they have a smaller nose in Ratliff who can penetrate the pocket as he is only responsible for one gap.

In New England the nose lines up over the centre and is responsible for both A gaps while the ends are there to stack the OT at the point to allow outside rushers to go one on one with a TE or RB.

In Pittsburgh the technique is similar to the Patriots however pressure can come from anywhere while you may see defensive linemen drop into short zones.
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:22 AM    (permalink
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I thought Dallas used a similar scheme to San Diego? As in SD have that behemoth Jamal Williams manning two gaps in the middle, I thought that's what Ratliff did too. Does Ratliff still take a double team even thought he's only responsible for one gap? If so, does that mean the 5 tech DEs do pretty much the same job in either 3-4?
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Old 03-22-2009, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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There are alot of intricacies that can differentiate a 3-4 scheme. Alot of it has to do with a teams personnel as well as individual preferences with coordinators. This season, the 49ers will be running a completely different 3-4 scheme under Greg Manusky than they did last season with Mike Nolan calling the shots. The 3-4 the Cowboys run under Wade Phillips is alot different than the 3-4 used when Parcells was there.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Every team in the NFL runs a mix of zone and man. Though some teams may be base Cover 2 teams, every team runs both. The only team that runs almost exclusively one over the other is the Raiders. They run all man-to-man but have the only shut-down corner in the league.
Well yeah of course, I was pointing out that more often than not Revis was in man, but more often than not the corner on the other side of the field was in zone. So it wasn't a pure zone, but we weren't running straight up man coverage either. Mostly a function of what our corners were able to do. Some teams you can label as running more of one or the other, but the Jets last year were pretty tough to characterize. If I had to choose one or the other I'd say we ran more man overall, though.
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Old 03-22-2009, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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the standard 3-4 as in what the model is is, NT takes both A gaps, ILB (Mike (Strong) Mack (Weak)) take the B gaps, DE's take the C gaps and and the OLB's take the D gaps, unlike a SAM and a WILL both OLB's have similiar roles
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:40 PM    (permalink
fenikz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PACKmanN View Post
I know the Packers, Steelers, Jets, KC, and Browns Pats 3-4 defenses run zone coverage scheme in the secondary, while the Cardinals, Dolphins, Cowboys, Ravens, Chargers, 49ers, and Broncos run a man coverage scheme in the secondary.

Cardinals haven't ran any plays in the 3-4 yet, we might be switching this year though
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Could you link the article please? Or explain the exact differences between those? I always love learning more about Xs and Os.
It's a pay article on scout.

I don't know if I'm allowed linking it so those who pay for that info can see it.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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The Pats use alot of complex looking blitzes?? On the other hand, the Jets.. Seemed like we hardly blitzed after the season started.. I can hardly recall of many sacks.. Hopefully Rex Ryan will help Gholston break out and Scott will remain good.
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