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Old 03-07-2007, 04:27 AM    (permalink
Severe Punishment
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Originally Posted by jerthemessiah View Post
I was talking about the Pats o-line. They have 5 guys that can block. The Vikings have 2.5: Birk, Hutch and McKennie is shakey at times he's a half. Maybe 3/4.

Pats o-line > Vikes o-line
Pats running game > Vikes running game
Pats recievers > Vikes recievers
Pats coaching staff > Vikes coaching staff

Pats have a great defense too. It's not Tom Brady vs. The NFL.
The Patriots O-Line is good...but the Vikes have more talent. Perhaps if we didn't flip from from the ZBS to man blocking or trap blocking we could've gained the cohessiveness to make it a real weapon to end the year.

The Pats WR's last year compared to ours is a joke. Robinson / Taylor and Williamson were worlds better than any 3 you could come up with from the Pats team that lost to the Colts in the AFC title game.

The Running game's to me are even. For long term value I'd take Maroney ..but a run down Dillon and Heath Evans aren't as good as
Mewelde Moore and Artrose Pinner.....this one probably slightly favors
the Vikes, but for arguements sake I'll call it even.

Thier Defense is better than ours...there's no denying that. but it mainly has to do with the LB'ers...Bruschi / Vrabel / Banta Cain /Seau... are worlds better than any 2 LB'ers we have to match them up with.
Asante Samuel to me still isn't as good as Winfield (though it's close)

You make it sound like the Vikes were some sandlot squad and the Patriots team was 30 or 35 all pro's when that simply wasn't the case. As a team
the Patriots have belief in each other which makes them better (the coaching is far superior, I'll give ya that...it's not even debateable) but as far as talent , it's not as far off as you'd like to believe or have anyone else beleive. I'm not saying if we take Quinn we're making the title game in 07...but he'd give us a helluva lot better shot IMO to be there in 09 than any QB we have now.
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:33 AM    (permalink
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The Patriots O-Line is good...but the Vikes have more talent. Perhaps if we didn't flip from from the ZBS to man blocking or trap blocking we could've gained the cohessiveness to make it a real weapon to end the year.
But they didn't flip, hence the Pats line played better. The Vikings gave up more sacks. It wouldn't matter if McKennie was pro bowler too. The right side is terrible.

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The Pats WR's last year compared to ours is a joke. Robinson / Taylor and Williamson were worlds better than any 3 you could come up with from the Pats team that lost to the Colts in the AFC title game.
When I say recievers, I think guys that can catch the ball. It includes TE's and to a much lesser extent the RB's(unless it's a guy like Tiki or L.T.). It's basically the weapons a QB has to work with on passing downs. This includes Graham and Watson. For the Vikes Wiggins and Jimmy.

I'm pretty sure everyone would want to swap WR's and TE's with the Pats that is a Vikes fan. Graham and Watson alone are worth it.

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The Running game's to me are even. For long term value I'd take Maroney ..but a run down Dillon and Heath Evans aren't as good as
Mewelde Moore and Artrose Pinner.....this one probably slightly favors
the Vikes, but for arguements sake I'll call it even.
Run down Dillon ran for 13 TD's compared to the 12 TD's for everyone in Purple. I'd take Maroney and Dillon over any back on the Vikings roster. Dillon if it was for just one year.

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You make it sound like the Vikes were some sandlot squad and the Patriots team was 30 or 35 all pro's when that simply wasn't the case. As a team
the Patriots have belief in each other which makes them better (the coaching is far superior, I'll give ya that...it's not even debateable) but as far as talent , it's not as far off as you'd like to believe or have anyone else beleive. I'm not saying if we take Quinn we're making the title game in 07...but he'd give us a helluva lot better shot IMO to be there in 09 than any QB we have now.
The Vikings offense is near sandlot calibur. They have a center, a guard, an ok tackle, and ok running back and questions marks everywhere else.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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i dont think its as far fetched as severe and other posters may seem, obviously im not saying that it is going to happen or that theres a good chance its going to happen, im just saying its better than most people think, our FO was aggressive in going after the guy they wanted last draft and Speilman has a history of giving away draft picks for players he covets

we also have had a laid back approach in this FA toward WRs, and theres no way this FO thinks that with this group of WR's our offense is going to improve at all next season, they werent aggressive at all in getting anyone in here we had curtis visit and thats all we didnt contact bennett we havent contacted horn its like we have no interest in any WR...i think thats a little strange considering our position

imo wed have to give up more than a 3rd and a 5th to move up, but id be willing to give up our 2nd rounder next year and a first and 3rd this year to get him, then add an OG in the second grab Francis in the 4th figurs in the 5th and our team looks much better.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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The Vikings are completely different from the Patriots. Even if they have no well-known offensive weapons, they still have a great coach, and a stone-solid defense. To think our offense would still be in the same position in 2007 with Calvin Johnson as it was in 2006 is ridiculous.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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hahahaha...ya'll vastly over rate the Reche Caldwell's and ND O-Line ...not to mention the whole point of Tom Brady is WHAT HE DID with that low tier talent....they were 2 plays from another trip to the S.B.

Quinn is more like Brady than Jackson or Bollinger resemble an NFL QB.
That's just a sad fact.

and finding a WR is much simpler and easier in the draft or through F/A than a QB will ever be.

This team needs a QB for the future....Jackson and Bollinger are NOT it.
The only thing on here "getting old" is this Minnesotan sports mentality that losers are satsifactory.....Kevin Garnett is the pinacle of this belief.
How can you say "thats just a sad fact." How in any way is that fact? I mean really, you can't just throw that word around. Its really annoying. Because you make comparisons that in no way can be made yet, you simply say that is "fact"

Also, why do your responses come up on here as if you hit the "enter" button half way through most of your sentences so that they're broken up and difficult to read? Is it some sort of tactic to make people not read your responses because its a hassle and thus not allow them to see that you make no points whatsoever and simply claim it as fact?
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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If we were to get Calvin Johnson, it would make sense for us to give Jackson one more year to prove himself. If he can't get it done, we should see what veteran QBs are on the market, or maybe see if any more college QBs develop during the season into NFL prospects.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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i think johnson could turn this team around by himself offensively, he has the potential to be such a force he would make teams have to addapt to cover him creating more room for others and the running game
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I don't think Johnson could turn it around by himself. Just look at Andre Johnson in Houston. Jackson would have to improve.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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the big difference though is that first of all calvin is a much better looing and more highly touted prospect than andre was, not to mention we have a better running game and a better offensive line than houston had

i think the combination of a great WR, a good line, (at least 3/5s of it) and a pretty darn good running game will help turn this offense around, right now we are missing that WR, if we get that WR itll make all the difference in the world, IMO
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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But they didn't flip, hence the Pats line played better. The Vikings gave up more sacks. It wouldn't matter if McKennie was pro bowler too. The right side is terrible.
Their scheme is better because it's consistent. Howevre player for player
our lineman have so much more skill , it's not even close.
McKinnie is a pro bowler (just not last year) Hutch and Birk are very
close to if not THE premier talents at their positions. The right side
sucked major donkey, I won't try and deny that , but McKinnie / Birk and
Hutch are 3 of the best lineman in the game. Our talent is higher , their
consistent scheme works better...it doesn't mean they have more talent.
They're just better at utilizing it than we are.

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When I say recievers, I think guys that can catch the ball. It includes TE's and to a much lesser extent the RB's(unless it's a guy like Tiki or L.T.). It's basically the weapons a QB has to work with on passing downs. This includes Graham and Watson. For the Vikes Wiggins and Jimmy.
Here's every player that caught a pass for N.E. last year.
Player .....................Catches....Yards
Reche Caldwell..............61.........760
Benjamin Watson...........49.........643
Troy Brown...................43..........384
Kevin Faulk...................43..........356
Doug Gabriel.................25..........344
Daniel Graham...............21..........235
Laurence Maroney..........22..........194
David Thomas................11..........159
Chad Jackson................13..........152
Corey Dillon..................15...........147
Jabar Gaffney................11..........142
Heath Evans..................7............34
Patrick Pass..................2............24
Kelvin Kight...................1.............9
Brandon Childress...........2.............7

http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/NE

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I'm pretty sure everyone would want to swap WR's and TE's with the Pats that is a Vikes fan. Graham and Watson alone are worth it.
Why exactly is that ? Perhaps you're confussed as to Graham and Watson's
actual value as recievers. Watson had 49 catches Wiggins 46 (in an off year)
Graham had 21 catches Kliensauser and Dugan combined for 13. But you have to take this into context too...we threw to the TE fewer times in 06 than in the previous 3 years by a ton. Watson is the superior talent, but
he had all of 3 more catches than Wiggins in a Wiggins "down year".
Brady's talent level around him as far as catching the ball was roughly the same as Johnson and Jackson had to work with in 06. The major difference is that druing "crunch time" they didn't penalize themselves and they kept the ball..got points where we drew flags, turned 3rd and 2 into 3rd and 6..
threw a 4 yard pass...then punted. Giving up possible points.
We finished 6-10 but could've very easily been 8-8...which would've put us in the playoffs.
Quote:
Run down Dillon ran for 13 TD's compared to the 12 TD's for everyone in Purple. I'd take Maroney and Dillon over any back on the Vikings roster. Dillon if it was for just one year.
Dillon was the designated goal line back...and good for him that he was able to score that many times.
But don't for one second think that he was breaking off 20 yard runs every game. The Pats worked the ball down the field methodically and punched it in from a few yards out (the same thing we tried to do, they just did it penalty free) Chester Taylor handled the rock 100 more times than did Dillon and
managed to average the same amount of yards per touch. Taylor is in a tier
above Dillon who at this point in his career is nothing more than a part timer.
I like L.Maroney too (I am a Gopher season ticket holder for the last 15+ seasons) but he's not durable...the Pats are a punishing style of offense and he's just not going to be able to run the ball 250+ times a year.
Taylor's speed is comparable, and his hands are better...Maroney's vision and
hip movement is on another level....to me Taylor's durability and ability to
run between the tackles without a high fumble rate , and better hands out of the backfield makes him the better back. But to each his own.

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The Vikings offense is near sandlot calibur. They have a center, a guard, an ok tackle, and ok running back and questions marks everywhere else.
That's more likely frustration than logical thought. Look we're all Viking fans and are tired of seeing them out of the playoffs. And this system that's being assembled is now and unfamiliar....which is scary. But the kind
of people / system we have in place wins. We have to trust it, and not be a perenial Lions or Cardinals who every 2 years run a system then get so frustrated that they throw everything away...having to constantly rebuild.
Tice did very little for us system wise (just tried copying what Denny did)
Childress is doing the same thing...for the most part but what good right now
would it do to scrap it all again , before we really understand what it is this team is trying to do.
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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How can you say "thats just a sad fact." How in any way is that fact? I mean really, you can't just throw that word around. Its really annoying. Because you make comparisons that in no way can be made yet, you simply say that is "fact"

Also, why do your responses come up on here as if you hit the "enter" button half way through most of your sentences so that they're broken up and difficult to read? Is it some sort of tactic to make people not read your responses because its a hassle and thus not allow them to see that you make no points whatsoever and simply claim it as fact?
Oohh I don't know , how about the same guy who eleveated Brady's game (Charlie Weiss) moulded Quinn into a Bradyesque clone.
41 td's 7 picks...you make the connection.
I said he's more like Brady than Jackson or Bollinger..which is a fact, unless of course Jackson or Bolllinger studied under Weiss and or Billichek and no one seems to know it but you...it's a fact.

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Old 03-07-2007, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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i think johnson could turn this team around by himself offensively, he has the potential to be such a force he would make teams have to addapt to cover him creating more room for others and the running game
This and this reason alone is why Viking fans think they know what they want when they want Calvin Johnson...just think about this "he can do it all himself" thinking. If he was soooooo good that he could dominate games AT THE PRO LEVEL by himself..they how exactly did the Yellow Jackets every lose a game ???? He's good, he's not a God...get off his jock.
We run a WCO , we're not trading up for a WR who wouldn't fit the offense we currently have here. He's a vertical WR, not a short possession guy..he shys away from contact....and is going to be a Moss type WR in the NFL.
A guy who runs the deep outs the deep comeback and the post / fly route.
He could even be a guy who you can use at the goal line. If Tice were
still here or Denny then he'd be the perfect fit because that was the type of offense we ran. Now we throw 3-6 yard quick slants and flat passes ...CJ would be an utter waste here , except for the 2 fly patterns we run a game.
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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the big difference though is that first of all calvin is a much better looing and more highly touted prospect than andre was, not to mention we have a better running game and a better offensive line than houston had

i think the combination of a great WR, a good line, (at least 3/5s of it) and a pretty darn good running game will help turn this offense around, right now we are missing that WR, if we get that WR itll make all the difference in the world, IMO
Also incorrect. Andre Johnson was very much on the same level leaving school as was Johnson. In fact Johnson had helped lead the Caines to a Nat'l Championship game. Andre Johnson and Randy Moss both out of college were better prepared and better WR's than CJ.

Putting Calvin Johnson on last years team wasn't giong to win us any more games.
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Putting CJ on the team last year and he wins us 0-6 more games last year, how many games were we close to winning in the last quater? lets see Bills, First Chicago game, 49ers, Packers(both games),dolphins ... now CJ isnt a miracle worker and cant win by himself but having him a RELIABLE deep threat in the passsing game would have been a world of a difference late in all the close games we had.
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Old 03-07-2007, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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Also incorrect. Andre Johnson was very much on the same level leaving school as was Johnson. In fact Johnson had helped lead the Caines to a Nat'l Championship game. Andre Johnson and Randy Moss both out of college were better prepared and better WR's than CJ.

Putting Calvin Johnson on last years team wasn't giong to win us any more games.


you are completely and absolutely WRONG on this, as usual severe. Calvin is much more thought of than Andre was and either way, Andre could easily have a similar effect as Calvin would on this team, he would also change this team around.

Quote:
We run a WCO , we're not trading up for a WR who wouldn't fit the offense we currently have here. He's a vertical WR, not a short possession guy..he shys away from contact....and is going to be a Moss type WR in the NFL.
this just makes you lose the very little credibility you had, this is the dumbest statement i have ever read in my life, i honest to god think that a 4th grader with downs syndrome is smarter than you (no offense to kids like that, its a terrible disease!) you are a flat out idiot severe, bottom line, you know absolutely nothing
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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you are completely and absolutely WRONG on this, as usual severe. Calvin is much more thought of than Andre was and either way, Andre could easily have a similar effect as Calvin would on this team, he would also change this team around.
Your man lust for CJ is out of control...seek help.
Calvin Johnson was a very good prospect on a horrible team with very little
options. That's one main reason he was thrown at 70+ times.
Andre Johnson is just as good as CJ. If Miami was as bad a program as
GT has been ...then perhaps fewer blue chip recruits might have gone to Da U and they wouldn't have sent 16 players in the NFL in 2001...and guys
like Willis McGahee would've gone elsewhere...leaving Andre to fill a larger role in Miami's offense. Oh well could've should've,whatever..your assestment of football prospects is horrible, the only thing worse I'd say is your bombardment of trade scenario's on here. You're obviously in junior high.

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This just makes you lose the very little credibility you had, this is the dumbest statement i have ever read in my life, i honest to god think that a 4th grader with downs syndrome is smarter than you (no offense to kids like that, its a terrible disease!) you are a flat out idiot severe, bottom line, you know absolutely nothing
I wish you had any credibility so might take it from you.
The rest of this tantrum is going to get you a warning from a mod.
Good day.
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Old 03-07-2007, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Putting CJ on the team last year and he wins us 0-6 more games last year, how many games were we close to winning in the last quater? lets see Bills, First Chicago game, 49ers, Packers(both games),dolphins ... now CJ isnt a miracle worker and cant win by himself but having him a RELIABLE deep threat in the passsing game would have been a world of a difference late in all the close games we had.
Speculation...nothing more. If we had 1 WR to catch the ball last year it might've helped, might not have. Taylor had at least 5 first downs called back because of holding or other various penalties. This team needs to figure out how to sustain a drive without a penalty before they can start worrying about how to get the ball into the endzone.

The only thing I'll agree with is "CJ is not a miracle worker" ...you're absolutely right..the sooner people in here figure this out, the better.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:25 PM    (permalink
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Speculation...nothing more. If we had 1 WR to catch the ball last year it might've helped, might not have. Taylor had at least 5 first downs called back because of holding or other various penalties. This team needs to figure out how to sustain a drive without a penalty before they can start worrying about how to get the ball into the endzone.

The only thing I'll agree with is "CJ is not a miracle worker" ...you're absolutely right..the sooner people in here figure this out, the better.
Speculation? Just like your comment about how because Brady Quinn studied under Weiss it is a FACT that he will likely do better in the NFL. Yet another contradiction from the man who claims to be more intelligent just because he takes the side as the Devil's Advocate.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:40 PM    (permalink
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I know Calvin Johnson is not a miracle worker. I know he couldn't take the Vikes offense into the top half of the league by himself. I have to believe theat Tarvaris Jackson will be improved after an offseasons worth of work and studying, and a bout through training camp. Jackson won't be a rookie anymore, and he should have some confidence if he is convinced that he is Childress' guy. We could make Calvin Johnson one of the foundations of our offense.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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All this Calvin Johnson talk is worthless anyways..as we're not trading up to get him, and he's not falling to 7.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:51 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyjo672 View Post
Speculation? Just like your comment about how because Brady Quinn studied under Weiss it is a FACT that he will likely do better in the NFL. Yet another contradiction from the man who claims to be more intelligent just because he takes the side as the Devil's Advocate.
Brady Quinn will be an NFL stud. Bank on that.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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All this Calvin Johnson talk is worthless anyways..as we're not trading up to get him, and he's not falling to 7.
True true, but speculation is the base of a forum like this.
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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If speculation is the basis of a forum , then the forum is pointless to read.

how about "I think that Superman should come in and take over MLB"
do you see how irrelevance as discussion is worthless ?
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Old 03-07-2007, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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Just look at the NFL Draft and Mock Draft forum, and then talk to me about speculation.
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Old 03-07-2007, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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Mock forums are different. Mock when used as a noun means
" 4 a: an act of imitation b: something made as an imitation":
This is straight from webster.

People go to that forum knowing that nothing there has to make
any sense. But these team discussion threads, insight that the discussion revolves around the team....not speculation.
I'm all for people bringing up new ideas and think they add a certain "fun factor" when talking about the team...but the barage of nonstop "what if we trade XXX for CJ" discussion has been beaten to death. There's no point
in new threads starting up ,or every other thread turning into the same "trade for CJ this way" type of thread.
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