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Old 04-09-2009, 02:33 PM    (permalink
Somse
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Originally Posted by Malaka View Post
Eli has come along way from being the inconsistent QB he once was. He has definitely settled down, from the 24 TDs 24 INT guy he used to be, don't quote me on exact totals but I believe last year he had 23 TDs and 10 INTs if he can put that up for the rest of his career I'll be just fine calling Eli a franchise QB.
To be fair he's only had one year where he was "settled down". I think Eli is more of product of the Giants' success than the other way around.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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To be fair he's only had one year where he was "settled down". I think Eli is more of product of the Giants' success than the other way around.
If you look at the Giants last year he played as inconsistent as ever with 24 TDs and I believe 21 INTs. But once he got into the playoffs he had 6 TDs and 1 INT and lead the Giants, who were underdogs every single game to victories in Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay. Then in the Super Bowl came his only INT off a tipped pass. With the Eli playing at a high level the Giants were the best team in the NFL, and I will say it up until Plaxico shot himself they were last year too.

I think it is like with lack of a better word, an ecosystem kind of thing, where they both benefit off one another, when Eli plays well the Giants are one of the best teams in the league, when he doesn't they are merely a decent team. I truly believe that after the Super Bowl run, that Eli has finally settled down and although he won't ever be Peyton Manning throwing 40 TDs, thats perfectly fine if he gets us Ws with a 20 TDs and 10 INTs that is still a franchise QB.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by stephenson86 View Post
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning

I only think they are franchise QB's for me the rest havent done enough to prove that the franchise needs them to be successful
same can be said of roethlisberger. He did win that last superbowl for them, but regardless, i think the steelers would be a top team with or without him.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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same can be said of roethlisberger. He did win that last superbowl for them, but regardless, i think the steelers would be a top team with or without him.
if you read my last post i think that peyton manning is the true franchise QB of the NFL, literally i think he is the most important QB if not player to all teams in the NFL
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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If you look at the Giants last year he played as inconsistent as ever with 24 TDs and I believe 21 INTs. But once he got into the playoffs he had 6 TDs and 1 INT and lead the Giants, who were underdogs every single game to victories in Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay. Then in the Super Bowl came his only INT off a tipped pass. With the Eli playing at a high level the Giants were the best team in the NFL, and I will say it up until Plaxico shot himself they were last year too.

I think it is like with lack of a better word, an ecosystem kind of thing, where they both benefit off one another, when Eli plays well the Giants are one of the best teams in the league, when he doesn't they are merely a decent team. I truly believe that after the Super Bowl run, that Eli has finally settled down and although he won't ever be Peyton Manning throwing 40 TDs, thats perfectly fine if he gets us Ws with a 20 TDs and 10 INTs that is still a franchise QB.
Kyle Orton had 18 TDs and 12 INTs on a much less talented Bears offense. Sure, Eli Manning is technically a "franchise quarterback" but I think you expect your franchise quarterback to be elite, which he isn't.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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A franchise QB doesn't have to put up 4000+ yards and 30+ TD's year in and year our. A franchise QB is someone who knows his offense and the team well. Someone who the team can rely on to win games and make smart throws and not turn the ball over. If he understands the offense and does a good job managing the game which in turn leads to more W's he's a franchise QB in my books. And yeah, I was probably wrong about Peyton Manning, I guess I put too much thought into this age and forgot how good he really is. I'll change that.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:45 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Orton had 18 TDs and 12 INTs on a much less talented Bears offense. I think you need to ask for more out of Eli Manning than 20/10 if you're going to call him a franchise quarterback. Then again, my list of franchise quarterbacks might be a lot shorter than yours.
I think Eli's 2007 playoffs is enough, we don't have to ask him for anything else.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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A franchise QB doesn't have to put up 4000+ yards and 30+ TD's year in and year our. A franchise QB is someone who knows his offense and the team well. Someone who the team can rely on to win games and make smart throws and not turn the ball over. If he understands the offense and does a good job managing the game which in turn leads to more W's he's a franchise QB in my books. And yeah, I was probably wrong about Peyton Manning, I guess I put too much thought into this age and forgot how good he really is. I'll change that.
By that definition, Kyle Orton is a franchise quarterback. So was Trent Dilfer back when he played for the Ravens.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Kyle Orton had 18 TDs and 12 INTs on a much less talented Bears offense. Sure, Eli Manning is technically a "franchise quarterback" but I think you expect your franchise quarterback to be elite, which he isn't.
There are many ways to look at this Trent Dilfer does not > Dan Marino because of his ring, but at the same time if Big Ben is considered a franchise QB with a 15 TD 15 INT stat line his only great season was 07', with his 2 SB rings then I think Eli Manning has to make the list. Same goes to Terry Bradshaw he is still considered a great QB with his 4 SB rings, but he never had amazing stats.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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If the question was who could be a Franchise QB Trent Edwards would be on the list but the question was who are the current franchise QB's and he doesn't make that list.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Look let's not argue about eli because unless you watch him and see how he takes over in the clutch for our team you won't appreciate him, not with stats, not with previous success, etc. What makes eli a great QB is that we're never out of it with him under center, we can always comeback. Now that our D is strength he doesn't have too play from behind as much so you don't see him taking over as often, but he moves the offense in crunch time like few QBs in this league can.
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Old 04-09-2009, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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There are many ways to look at this Trent Dilfer does not > Dan Marino because of his ring, but at the same time if Big Ben is considered a franchise QB with a 15 TD 15 INT stat line his only great season was 07', with his 2 SB rings then I think Eli Manning has to make the list. Same goes to Terry Bradshaw he is still considered a great QB with his 4 SB rings, but he never had amazing stats.
Big Ben has been much more efficient and consistent than Eli Manning, which is what separates the two.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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Big Ben has been much more efficient and consistent than Eli Manning, which is what separates the two.
If you take away Ben's 2007 they're just as efficient. Both win games, both are clutch, both benefit from great running games and defenses. There is no way you can call Roethlisberger a franchise QB without calling Eli one.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Big Ben has been much more efficient and consistent than Eli Manning, which is what separates the two.
Where is the proof of that?

Big Ben has had only 1 amazing season 07' 32 TDs 11 INTs. He has 2 SB rings but you can argue that both could have been won without him. Big Ben has been just as inconsistent posting 17 TD 15 INT season this year and also an 18 TD 23 INT season before 07'

Eli has had similar production on a worse team, also more TDs every year except his rookie year, and with out him the Giants would not have won a SB. Also if the Giants were less of a run happy team, and had a competent receiver other than Plaxico Burress Eli would have had a much better statistical year last year.

You cannot say Big Ben has been more consistent and efficient because that is not true, that point is moot.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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If you take away Ben's 2007 they're just as efficient. Both win games, both are clutch, both benefit from great running games and defenses. There is no way you can call Roethlisberger a franchise QB without calling Eli one.
In fact Eli's better command of his offense and overall higher football IQ makes him a fair bit higher IMO than Roethlisberger, although Big Ben shares my first name, is a fellow Motorcycling enthusiast and with his gunslingerness is pretty much the QB i'd be if I had the skills to make it to the NFL, so I do like him and root for him, but Eli's just better, smarter and more dependable.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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Ben Roethlisberger:


Eli Manning:


Roethlisberger has:
  • More passing yards on 379 less attempts
  • 62.4% completion percentage versus 55.9%
  • 7.9 yards per pass average versus 6.4
  • 89.4 QB rating versus 76.1 QB rating

Other than 2008, Manning turned the ball over too much and was inefficient as you can tell from his low yards per pass average and completion percentage.

Clearly, Roethlisberger is a more efficient quarterback.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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By that definition, Kyle Orton is a franchise quarterback. So was Trent Dilfer back when he played for the Ravens.
Dilfer is a different story. That 2000 Defense was just something amazing. Dan Orlovsky could have led that team to the Super Bowl. As for Orton, his defense was a dissapointment and he had very little weapons to work with. Olsen was the only legit option in the pass game and Hester still isn't polished. I do believe Orton can lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he'll need a good defense supporting him and some weapons to work with. Look at Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, Flacco had a top 5 run game and the #2 overall defense and Matt Ryan had the #2 run game and a pro bowl WR. The fact is, alot of QB's possess the ability to lead teams to the playoffs, they just need a solid supporting cast, but there are QB's (Brady, Brees, Rivers) who can take a team with nothing, and make then contenders. That is what seperates most QB's.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:34 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say Trent is a franchise QB yet but he definitely has the potential to be. The Bills organization is very high on him and think he is the future. During our 5-0 start, Trent had MVP talk going on.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say Trent is a franchise QB yet but he definitely has the potential to be. The Bills organization is very high on him and think he is the future. During our 5-0 start, Trent had MVP talk going on.
Huh?

First of all the Bills started 4-0. Second of all, Trent Edwards has never even been on the radar for MVP. He didn't throw for over 300 yards ONCE last season. He had ONE multiple TD game when he threw 2 TDs. The Bills offense is also about as stagnant as you can get.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Dilfer is a different story. That 2000 Defense was just something amazing. Dan Orlovsky could have led that team to the Super Bowl. As for Orton, his defense was a dissapointment and he had very little weapons to work with. Olsen was the only legit option in the pass game and Hester still isn't polished. I do believe Orton can lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he'll need a good defense supporting him and some weapons to work with. Look at Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, Flacco had a top 5 run game and the #2 overall defense and Matt Ryan had the #2 run game and a pro bowl WR. The fact is, alot of QB's possess the ability to lead teams to the playoffs, they just need a solid supporting cast, but there are QB's (Brady, Brees, Rivers) who can take a team with nothing, and make then contenders. That is what seperates most QB's.
So why did you just go on a rant about how you don't need to put up good stats (like Brady, Brees, Rivers, etc.) to be a franchise quarterback? Your two posts seem to be arguing complete opposites.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:41 PM    (permalink
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Ben Roethlisberger:


Eli Manning:


Roethlisberger has:
  • More passing yards on 379 less attempts
  • 62.4% completion percentage versus 55.9%
  • 7.9 yards per pass average versus 6.4
  • 89.4 QB rating versus 76.1 QB rating

Other than 2008, Manning turned the ball over too much and was inefficient as you can tell from his low yards per pass average and completion percentage.

Clearly, Roethlisberger is a more efficient quarterback.
Look if you're going to use stats this a pointless argument. There's no stat that measures a QB's ability to drive his team for a score in the clutch, so there's no way to measure eli's greatest strength. Like I've said I like Big Ben, but he doesn't command his offense the way eli does his, granted he takes more shots down the field and has been successful doing so so his stats are more impressive but watching those two operate it's clear that eli's the one who runs his team better. Roethlisberger's the better weapon but eli's the better tactician and that makes him a better leader and QB. *shrug* comparing QBs is such a subjective debate that there's really no point, but if you consider one a franchise QB you have to consider the other one as well.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Huh?

First of all the Bills started 4-0. Second of all, Trent Edwards has never even been on the radar for MVP. He didn't throw for over 300 yards ONCE last season. He had ONE multiple TD game when he threw 2 TDs. The Bills offense is also about as stagnant as you can get.
Yeah 5-0 was a typo. But Edwards was on the MVP watch during our hot start. I remember Edwards was a guest on PTI and he was asked about it.

He is awesome in the clutch, I think he was top 5 in 4th quarter QB percentage last year and he has already lead us to multiple comeback wins. Owner Ralph Wilson Jr. loves Edwards as does head coach Dick Jauron.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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I just hope Trent is fully ready and is playing the way he was to start the season. He's going to be a good one and will give the bills much needed consistency in the passing game.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Look if you're going to use stats this a pointless argument. There's no stat that measures a QB's ability to drive his team for a score in the clutch, so there's no way to measure eli's greatest strength
Actually there is...

Ben Roethlisberger

2008:


2007:


Eli Manning

2008:


2007:


Manning might have been slightly more impressive in 2008 in the 4th quarter but Roethlisberger was much better in 2007. I don't see how you can give Manning a significant edge here.
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Old 04-09-2009, 03:55 PM    (permalink
BmoreBlackByrdz
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Originally Posted by Somse View Post
So why did you just go on a rant about how you don't need to put up good stats (like Brady, Brees, Rivers, etc.) to be a franchise quarterback? Your two posts seem to be arguing complete opposites.
A QB doesn't need to put up those kinda numbers when he has a solid supporting cast. (i.e a good run game and good defense) If a QB has those 2, he can rely on them. Let the defense give the offense the ball, and let the run game drive down the field. All the QB has to do is make smart decisions and not turn the ball over. Look at Joe Flacco in Baltimore for a perfect example. But if your a team with not as much talent, obviously your QB needs to step up and take on a greater role like Tom Brady before he had Moss, like Drew Brees in New Orleans.
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