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Old 04-09-2009, 04:57 PM    (permalink
Somse
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Originally Posted by BmoreBlackByrdz View Post
A QB doesn't need to put up those kinda numbers when he has a solid supporting cast. (i.e a good run game and good defense) If a QB has those 2, he can rely on them. Let the defense give the offense the ball, and let the run game drive down the field. All the QB has to do is make smart decisions and not turn the ball over. Look at Joe Flacco in Baltimore for a perfect example. But if your a team with not as much talent, obviously your QB needs to step up and take on a greater role like Tom Brady before he had Moss, like Drew Brees in New Orleans.
Right, I'm just saying the QBs who are game managers are not franchise quarterbacks. I consider franchise quarterbacks guys you build around to win championships, not guys you plug in to an already championship-caliber team.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:02 PM    (permalink
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Eli is a franchise quarterback. I believe that and am not saying he isn't but I have to put my two cents in and say Eli isn't leaps and bounds better at comebacks and the such than Big Ben. He has like 19 or something in his 5 years. Biggest one being the last REAL football game any of us watched. I know Eli did the same thing, that is why I am saying you can't say he is WAY better. We aren't down or behind often but when we are inevitably, Big Ben steps up. They are ATLEAST even in that respect.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Somse View Post
Actually there is...

Ben Roethlisberger

2008:


2007:


Eli Manning

2008:


2007:


Manning might have been slightly more impressive in 2008 in the 4th quarter but Roethlisberger was much better in 2007. I don't see how you can give Manning a significant edge here.
Fourth quarter within 7 is the closest stat to what I'm talking about but eli was often protecting the lead in that situation and not driving for a score, os even those numbers are faulty. Honestly I don't really care if people recognize eli as a top ten QB, or not. I was just trying to explain that if you consider guys like Big Ben franchise QBs you should consider eli one as well if oyu want to be consistent.
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Fourth quarter within 7 is the closest stat to what I'm talking about but eli was often protecting the lead in that situation and not driving for a score, os even those numbers are faulty. Honestly I don't really care if people recognize eli as a top ten QB, or not. I was just trying to explain that if you consider guys like Big Ben franchise QBs you should consider eli one as well if oyu want to be consistent.
How do you know Big Ben wasn't protecting leads?

I already explained why Big Ben is more consistent than Eli. If Eli has another season like he just had, I'll consider him on that level, but until then...
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Franchise Quarterbacks
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Drew Brees
Eli Manning
Philip Rivers


On the Brink:
Carson Palmer (too injury prone)
Jay Cutler (too much drama, new team)
Matt Ryan (needs to prove it beyond one year)
Aaron Rodgers (same as Ryan)
Donovan McNabb (he was benched last year so he's clearly not 'untouchable')

On the brink, of being on the brink
Tony Romo
Joe Flacco
Matt Cassell
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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On the Brink:
Carson Palmer (too injury prone)
Palmer is too injury prone? When was he hurt other than last season?
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Old 04-09-2009, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Well he is still one of the better QB's in the leauge, arguably top 2, but with the loss of Dungy and Harrison and him having a slow start last year, plus he's 33 so I could see him slowly start to decline. One thing is for sure, the Colts should soon start to groom his replacement.
The Colts don't need to start to groom his replacement at all. Peyton Manning is one of the most durable players in the history of sports and has done nothing to show decline. He's never been a great athlete so in his aging he may not show much decline at all. Losing Marvin Harrison (who cares?) and his teams' defensive minded motivator/father figure/organizer won't slow him down at all.

He's THE franchise QB.

BTW I agree with pretty much everything Mr. Regular has above (Except I hate when people spell it Cassell).

Although I think Romo's closer to being a franchise QB than we all think- we all forget that one of his "choke jobs" was a fumbled snap after he led the team down to win the game. Had that gone the other way (and 99.8% of the time it does), he'd probably be viewed differently. I usually don't believe in giving excuses or fluke plays but explain to me why your starting QB is holding there again?
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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I don't get how Jay Cutler can be a franchise QB for a team he hasn't played a snap for, and he hasn't touched the playoffs.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Palmer is too injury prone? When was he hurt other than last season?
When he tore his knee in the playoffs?

What do I win?
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i wish NFLDC had something like "wall to wall" where we could see Brodeur and Job's conversations.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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When he tore his knee in the playoffs?

What do I win?
How is that being injury-prone? Doesn't matter if that's Palmer, Brady, Manning, or whoever, they're going down as well. Just bad luck and a bad offensive line in Cincinnati.
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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When he tore his knee in the playoffs?

What do I win?
he didnt miss any time for that injury i thought? does that count or no?
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Old 04-09-2009, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Well he did miss the rest of that game...and he hardly played at all last year. But before that he had started every game for like 3 seasons. Hardly makes him injury prone.

I personally like Carson Palmer a great deal, but he asked when Palmer had been injured before.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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The Colts don't need to start to groom his replacement at all. Peyton Manning is one of the most durable players in the history of sports and has done nothing to show decline.
I would have said the same about Brady last year
until a hustiling safety from KC aimed for his knees
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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YFS, how can you not think this guy is a franchise QB?!

Now, excuse my while I put this gun in my mouth.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BmoreBlackByrdz View Post
Well he is still one of the better QB's in the leauge, arguably top 2, but with the loss of Dungy and Harrison and him having a slow start last year, plus he's 33 so I could see him slowly start to decline. One thing is for sure, the Colts should soon start to groom his replacement.
Marvin Harrison stopped being a positive influenece on this team two years ago...and the rest of that post, well i just don't know how to answer it.
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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For you stat driven guys, NONE of you would be considering John Elway as a franchise QB based on stats. But you know what, he won games and was amazing in the clutch.

And the talk about the Colts needing to groom a replacement for Manning...just how idiotic can you get?
Manning has 5 years at least, QB's can play into their 40's. Heck, look at Vinny Testaverde for crying out loud and Warren Moon.
Groom a replacement to sit on the bench for 5 years? Yeah, right...
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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P. Manning still has 3-7 years left in his career... I am pretty sure he is still one of the best, if not the best QB in the NFL.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:11 PM    (permalink
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Donovan McNabb is a franchise QB. The guy consistently made the playoffs with Todd Pinkston and James Thrash and last year after the benching led his team to the brink of the Super Bowl.
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Old 04-09-2009, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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True Franchise Guys
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Drew Brees

On the Cusp
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers


Guys that have more to Prove
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:10 PM    (permalink
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A franchise QB to me is a QB a team acquires through whatever means and then proceeds to hand the unconditional starting QB job over to some time afterwards, while the said QB does enough to keep the team happy in that role for an extended period of time, ideally most of their career. It's a dual effort - the team extending the trust and the player doing what it takes to keep it.

There are a lot of could-be franchise QB's in the NFL, or a fair amount anyway, but few sure fire ones IMO. Brady, Eli & Peyton Manning and Big Ben make up my sure fire franchise QB's - they were given the chance and have taken each of their teams all the way. These guys just aren't going anywhere else anytime soon - maybe retirement for Brady and Peyton not too far down the track, and who knows, maybe another Favre like incident, but that's not going to change the fact they're established franchise QBs now.

Guys like Palmer, Romo, Rivers, Brees, McNabb etc have been tagged as franchise QB's by their teams but IMO that's just half the battle - I'm not sure those guys have done enough yet to quite get over the hump. I expect a few of those to do so soon, but it's just not 100% yet. A guy like Cutler has only just been re-tagged as a franchise QB by his new team and that could go either way on whether he earns it or not.

McNabb is a tough one though because he's extremely close and maybe in a few seasons we can look back to now and see he definitely was. I dunno, maybe I'm letting the brief and perhaps over exaggerated hint of concern the Eagles seemed to show recently stop me from believing the Eagles are 100% still trusting McNabb as their unconditional starting QB. This season is fairly important regarding this IMO.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Wow, 33 year old reigning MVP Peyton Manning is not a franchise QB, but 32 year old coming off an ACL Tom Brady is? Trent Edwards is? Joe Flacco is (homer)? Matt Schaub is? That's a pretty interesting concept of "Franchise QB" you have, can you explain it to me?
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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My take:

A franchise QB is simply a starting QB that the franchise owner wants to keep for the long haul and build the team around. Sure, there is some level of accomplishment. It's how the ownership determined they wanted to go with the guy in the first place. But that accomplishment isn't based off Wins.

That's why Derek Anderson wasn't a franchise QB even though he won 10 games in '07.

I think you guys are defining Franchise QBs incorrectly. It shouldn't be based of what they've accomplished. You say Peyton Manning is a Franchise QB. If he's still playing in 5 year's, is he still considered a Franchise QB? Was Brett Favre considered a Franchise QB last year? No, I don't think so. I think it's based off value. Not accomplishment.

That's why Jay Cutler is a franchise QB even though he hasn't taken a snap for the Bears.

Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Matt Cassell... they're all Franchise QBs.

The guys like Jason Campbell, Derek Anderson, Kyle Orton.... those guys are not Franchise QBs until they have done enough for their teams to have full confidence in them going forward for the long haul.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:15 PM    (permalink
Malaka
Thinking of Juan
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Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Malaka is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by DeathbyStat View Post
True Franchise Guys
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Drew Brees

On the Cusp
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers


Guys that have more to Prove
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Fixed it for you...
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:25 PM    (permalink
LonghornsLegend
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LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.LonghornsLegend is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
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Originally Posted by BmoreBlackByrdz View Post
The guys in italics are the ones that are still good quaterbacks and will do enough to win games but aren't the longterm answer for there respective teams.


Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning
Seriously? Nobody should take you serious after this...And the fact that you called Matt Schaub a franchise QB makes it even worse.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:45 PM    (permalink
BaLLiN
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Originally Posted by LonghornsLegend View Post
Seriously? Nobody should take you serious after this...And the fact that you called Matt Schaub a franchise QB makes it even worse.
I agree its ridiculous to call Shaub a franchise QB, and Peyton not.

The Shaub is dumb but Peyton is forgivable. Harrison WAS a great part of his success, very reliable and they both worked together alot to get things to work.

I do think there will be a dropoff, but its not like Peyton will be questioned, he's still a Pro Bowl QB and the engineer of the offense. Gonzalez has made strides from his rookie season, so the loss isnt that great, Harrison just seemed to lose a step.
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I ****** hate you, stupid *** smd
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