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Old 04-29-2009, 11:23 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
[Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Detroit Lions
4. Chicago Bears

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Minnesota Vikings

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions
So, the Bears are better than the Lions in 3/4 categories, but are somehow inferior on offense. That makes sense.

Seriously, the Vikings over the Bears is questionable, but the Lions over the Bears is ******* insane.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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ranked by unit as a whole...or individual player. depending on what the situation called for.


Overall offense
1-Packers-as of now, the only proven, complete offense in the division.
2-Vikings-i think they did the best job of making immediate improvements. Loadholt is an immediate upgrade at RT, and Harvin could make it a pretty dynamic offense. seriously, Rice-Berrian-Harvin could be a legit trio.
3-Bears-Cutler will help in the long term...but, really with big questions at o-line and WR, he could be in for a rude awakening in 2009.
4-Lions-Calvin Johnson and some of his friends.

QB
1-Cutler-I do think Aaron Rodgers will have the best season, but on talent alone, Cutler is #1.
2-Rodgers-See above.
3-Rosenfels-he came into a real good situation. he might surprise some people.
4-Culpepper/Stafford-CJ can make them look good if the O-line doesn't kill 'em first

RB
1-AD-duh.
2-Matt Forte
3-Kevin Smith
4-Ryan Grant-yup.

WR
1-Packers-Jennings/Driver/Nelson=YAC monsters
2-Vikings-Berrian/Rice/Harvin-all comes down to Harvin. he could put 'em over the top.
3-Lions-Bryant Johnson was a highly underrated signing.
4-Bears-and if there were a position lower than 4, they'd get that.

Offensive Line-
-ya know what. screw it. every team in our division has the potential to have a pretty bad o-line. The Vikings lost Birk and are really counting on Loadholt emerging right away. The Bears are also relying on an unproven young guy (Williams) and this has been a weakness for them anyway. the Packers have to replace Tauscher, not to mention the fact that Clifton is slipping. and the Lions seem to have forgetten they HAVE an o-line.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:49 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
[Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Detroit Lions
4. Chicago Bears

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Minnesota Vikings

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers

3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Defense

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions (expecting Foote - 3rd without him)
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Minnesota Vikings


DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears
Wow Detroit's secondary over Minnesota and Chicago? I hope you are kidding. Also Detroit's LB corp even with Foote would not better than the Vikings or the Packers.

Edit:Also I don't see how you could put Detroit's WR/TE over Green Bay sure Calvin Johnson is an absolute beast but there isn't much there after him especially compared to a deep WR corp such as Green Bay.

Last edited by Crazy_Chris : 04-30-2009 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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After checking, Stormin Normin is a Lions fan, so that may explain his rankings a bit.
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Old 04-30-2009, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Ah, yes that would seem to explain his rankings.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
So, the Bears are better than the Lions in 3/4 categories, but are somehow inferior on offense. That makes sense.
I don't consider the difference between Forte and Smith to be that great, I also have big questions about how much Cutler helps the Bears offense due to the lack of talent at wide receiver and TE.

Quote:
Seriously, the Vikings over the Bears is questionable, but the Lions over the Bears is ******* insane.
I disagree. I love the addition of Pettigrew, and I think having a competent QB allows Calvin Johnson to dominate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy_Chris View Post
Wow Detroit's secondary over Minnesota and Chicago? I hope you are kidding. Also Detroit's LB corp even with Foote would not better than the Vikings or the Packers.
I disagree. I really like the additions of Buchanon, Henry and Delmas in Detroit. I don't like either the Bears or the Vikings depth at CB. Also, a LB trio of Peterson/Foote/Sims is one of the best in the league. It's much better than the Packers and, IMO, edges out the Vikings.

Quote:
Edit:Also I don't see how you could put Detroit's WR/TE over Green Bay sure Calvin Johnson is an absolute beast but there isn't much there after him especially compared to a deep WR corp such as Green Bay.
Calvin Johnson and Brandon Pettigrew are physical freaks - Calvin Johnson alone qualifies the position. I also really like the veterans they added in Bryant Johnson and Ronald Curry.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
After checking, Stormin Normin is a Lions fan, so that may explain his rankings a bit.
You are a Bears fan, that would explain your ratings.

I think the majority of posters in the "NFC North Forum" are fans of one NFC North team or another.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions
3. Green Bay Packers


4. Minnesota Vikings
How are you determining this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions (expecting Foote - 3rd without him)
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Minnesota Vikings

DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears
Are you serious? So the Packers are better than the Lions in every category except linebackers and even then, it's a hypothetical situation but the Lions have a better defense? Explain this, please. And you're way too much of a homer. Lions WR/TE are not better than the Packers, go ahead and mention Calvin but mention Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Martin, and James Jones. There's no way in hell that the Lions WR/TE are better than the Packers, I'm sorry.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Are you serious? So the Packers are better than the Lions in every category except linebackers and even then, it's a hypothetical situation but the Lions have a better defense? Explain this, please.
It's simple really - I clearly think that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I am not proposing that my ratings are right without question, they are just my thoughts - every bit as credible as anyone's at this point in the season.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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The Vikings LBs at #4 in the division!!! Greenway/Henderson/Leber is a heck of a group. Henderson and Greenway are both studs and Leber is a good starter. I definitely think they could arguably be #1, but no way they are #4. I'd rank Chicago's LBs over Minnesota's, but it isn't that far off. Briggs and Urlacher are great, as are Greenway and Henderson, and I'd take Leber over Hillenmeyer, but they are close as well. Green Bay's LBs have too many question marks with their transition to the 3-4. Sims is overrated and hasn't been near as good since Shaun Rogers left, Peterson is good, but Foote is the 4th best MLB in the division.

There is a lot of homerism in those rankings, as is expected in anyone's rankings, but looking at your rankings, you'd think the Lions are a middle of the pack team, which they clearly aren't.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StorminNorman
I disagree. I really like the additions of Buchanon, Henry and Delmas in Detroit. I don't like either the Bears or the Vikings depth at CB. Also, a LB trio of Peterson/Foote/Sims is one of the best in the league. It's much better than the Packers and, IMO, edges out the Vikings.
Well Delmas shouldn't even enter into the equation of secondary he has yet to play a single down of professional ball so his impact cannot be judged as a good or bad addition yet. Also while Henry and Buchanon are good additions, Antione Winfied is still better than either of them, and Cedric Griffin is arguably better than Anthony Henry at this point in his career. As for depth I don't see why you don't like the Vikings depth. As for the depth I'll cut you a break as you aren't a fan of the Vikes you wouldn't watch them often enough to get a feeling for the depth but they have a lot of guys there. Now as for the safety position the Vikings starters are both better as of now. Louis may turn out to be better than one of them but he is a an unknown right now.

For the Bears it's the same thing I'll take their starting duo over the lions, I am not so sure about the bears depth as I didn't pay attention to most of them. And for Safeties. The Bears aren't too strong at safety but give me Kevin Payne over anyone the Lions have right now.

As for LB Peterson, Sims, and possibly foote is a good corp but Foote isn't official so we will leave him out of the convo right now. Chad Greenway is developing into a excellent LB and at this point in his career(only 2 years starting) he is just as good of a SAM as Julian Peterson if not better. WOLB Ernie Sims has been disappointing right now, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and I will put him equal with underated Leber. EJ Henderson blows your the incumbent(Dizon) MLB out of the water, and even with the possibility of foote EJ is much better.

It's very difficult to compare the packers new 3-4 LB corp to the 4-3 ones. So I am not goin to try, however for a 4-3 team give me Hawk and Barnett over Sims & Peterson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StorminNorman
Calvin Johnson and Brandon Pettigrew are physical freaks - Calvin Johnson alone qualifies the position. I also really like the veterans they added in Bryant Johnson and Ronald Curry.

I really don't see how you can classify Pettigrew as a "physical freak" there isn't really anything freakish about him. He has the potential to be a decent pass catcher and a very good blocker. A freakish TE prospect wasn't going to last until #20. We all know Calvin is a freak but Bryant Johnson isn't that great at all hell the 49er's didn't even want to re-sign the guy. Ronald Curry is pretty good but Green Bay's depth at WR is just too good. Aswell they have a decent TE in Donald Lee and Jermichael Finley flashed nice potential. But in the end what it comes down to like I said is that the depth on the GB Corp is too good to even think about putting the lions above them.

Last edited by Crazy_Chris : 04-30-2009 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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How are you determining this?



Are you serious? So the Packers are better than the Lions in every category except linebackers and even then, it's a hypothetical situation but the Lions have a better defense? Explain this, please. And you're way too much of a homer. Lions WR/TE are not better than the Packers, go ahead and mention Calvin but mention Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Martin, and James Jones. There's no way in hell that the Lions WR/TE are better than the Packers, I'm sorry.
Wow didn't even notice that he had the Lions having a better overall defense than the Packers. The packers may have a question mark due to switching scemes so it is a bit unknown how well they will transition to the 3-4 right away. However even with that I would take that defense over the Lions defense in a heartbeat.

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Old 04-30-2009, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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The Lions should have the Number 4 defensive with out any questions. Dont give me all these new additions crap. They gave up 517 points on defense last year and 6,470 yards last year. They ranked 32 in defense. There is no way the Lions Defense is better than the Packers until it is proven.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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I'm a lions fan, but I would take any NFC North D over the Lion's. I like where our offense is going though. Defense would need a few more years to get good... and by good I mean decent.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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The Lions didn't win a god damn game last year and they have a better defense than the Packers going into the year. GTFO.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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come on guys, there's no need to gang-disagree with him. I think he got the point.
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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i bet he doesnt
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Old 05-01-2009, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, I don't think he does either. There's a difference between having fan bias and being a homer.

That's fine, it's all a matter of opinion, but expect to be strongly criticized. That's the nature of the game.


In response to the question of my coaching rankings. Schwartz is an unknown. That, to me, clearly puts him above Childress who has proven to be a ****** coach, and IMO McCarthy as well. I'm just not a fan of McCarthy's schemes, or his gameday planning. I'm comfortable with the Packers in the division so long as he's their head coach.

I'm also a fan of Schwartz from his work with the Titans. Dude seems like he knows what he's doing.
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Old 05-01-2009, 12:44 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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i think he wants to know why u ranked the bears the highest
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:21 PM    (permalink
umphrey
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I could see the Packers LBers being first in the division, easily. We added Kampman and Matthews III to a group that already included Hawk and Barnett. I can see why they aren't getting high ratings now (also, Bears/Vikings LBers are pretty damn good too) but expect to see some outstanding play from that unit especially later in the year. No chance are the Lions LBers or overall defense even close to what the Packers have.
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
I could see the Packers LBers being first in the division, easily. We added Kampman and Matthews III to a group that already included Hawk and Barnett. I can see why they aren't getting high ratings now (also, Bears/Vikings LBers are pretty damn good too) but expect to see some outstanding play from that unit especially later in the year. No chance are the Lions LBers or overall defense even close to what the Packers have.
I see what you're saying, but there are a lot of question marks about them. How is Kampman going to do at OLB, how will Matthews do in his rookie season. Not to mention that Hawk had a down year last year and although Barnett was hurt and missed 7 games last year, he had a pretty poor year when he did play. It is also extremely hard to compare 4-3 and 3-4 LBs since they are asked to do totally different things, not to mention one that is transitioning to 3-4.
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If a girl is sucking me off, and I look down and shes beating off a **** of her own, I am absolutely going to tell her to stop. 100% of the time. Explain that ****.
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Old 05-01-2009, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Serious question. Are the Green Bay linebackers still weak at covering tight ends or have they addressed the issue?
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Old 05-02-2009, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Well Delmas shouldn't even enter into the equation of secondary he has yet to play a single down of professional ball so his impact cannot be judged as a good or bad addition yet.
Considering we are judging the 2009 NFC North and not the 2008 NFC North, it would be illogical not to take into account Delmas. If you want my rankings for the 2008 NFC North, Detroit would be last above the board.

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Also while Henry and Buchanon are good additions, Antione Winfied is still better than either of them, and Cedric Griffin is arguably better than Anthony Henry at this point in his career. As for depth I don't see why you don't like the Vikings depth. As for the depth I'll cut you a break as you aren't a fan of the Vikes you wouldn't watch them often enough to get a feeling for the depth but they have a lot of guys there. Now as for the safety position the Vikings starters are both better as of now. Louis may turn out to be better than one of them but he is a an unknown right now.



For the Bears it's the same thing I'll take their starting duo over the lions, I am not so sure about the bears depth as I didn't pay attention to most of them. And for Safeties. The Bears aren't too strong at safety but give me Kevin Payne over anyone the Lions have right now.
I disagree. It's as simple as that - I disagree. There is nothing wrong with that.

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As for LB Peterson, Sims, and possibly foote is a good corp but Foote isn't official so we will leave him out of the convo right now. Chad Greenway is developing into a excellent LB and at this point in his career(only 2 years starting) he is just as good of a SAM as Julian Peterson if not better. WOLB Ernie Sims has been disappointing right now, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and I will put him equal with underated Leber. EJ Henderson blows your the incumbent(Dizon) MLB out of the water, and even with the possibility of foote EJ is much better.
I disagree about Greenway being better than Peterson at this point in their careers, I would rather have Peterson. Ernie Sims has suffered from being the only linebacker in the Lions group, he has shown flashes of greatness though - I think he will thrive. Dizon is terrible, but he won't start the season at MLB. I fully believe Larry Foote will be a Detroit Lion come starting day, if that does not happen my rankings would be altered.

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It's very difficult to compare the packers new 3-4 LB corp to the 4-3 ones. So I am not goin to try, however for a 4-3 team give me Hawk and Barnett over Sims & Peterson.
I would give you Hawk/Barnett for Sims/Peterson.

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I really don't see how you can classify Pettigrew as a "physical freak" there isn't really anything freakish about him. He has the potential to be a decent pass catcher and a very good blocker. A freakish TE prospect wasn't going to last until #20. We all know Calvin is a freak but Bryant Johnson isn't that great at all hell the 49er's didn't even want to re-sign the guy. Ronald Curry is pretty good but Green Bay's depth at WR is just too good. Aswell they have a decent TE in Donald Lee and Jermichael Finley flashed nice potential. But in the end what it comes down to like I said is that the depth on the GB Corp is too good to even think about putting the lions above them.
I like Calvin Johnson significantly more than anyone else in the NFC North. I like B.J. and Curry as depth guys. Pettigrew is a huge target with soft hands who will help make Stafford an elite NFL QB.

You can argue that the Bills have more depth at WR than the Patriots do - Randy Moss makes the Patriots wide receiving group more dangerous.

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Yeah, I don't think he does either. There's a difference between having fan bias and being a homer.
Trying to paint me as a homer is going to be funny. I am not a veteran Lions fan, I am a new one. As a UCF student and a Stafford fan, the addition of Kevin Smith and Matthew Stafford has a lot more to do with my association with the Lions than some deep loyalty.

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That's fine, it's all a matter of opinion, but expect to be strongly criticized. That's the nature of the game.
I don't have any problem standing by the comments I make. I think that bashing someones pre-season thoughts, while still in the pre-season, only opens up the door for yourself to look rather foolish. The NFL is chaotic and unpredictable.

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In response to the question of my coaching rankings. Schwartz is an unknown. That, to me, clearly puts him above Childress who has proven to be a ****** coach, and IMO McCarthy as well. I'm just not a fan of McCarthy's schemes, or his gameday planning. I'm comfortable with the Packers in the division so long as he's their head coach.

I'm also a fan of Schwartz from his work with the Titans. Dude seems like he knows what he's doing.
Schwartz is an unknown, but I love everything I see from him. The guy is brilliant and I agree with every decision he has made to date. The way he evaluated Stafford was huge for me - I think he and I are similar in our thought process.
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Old 05-02-2009, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Positional rankings are tough to do because each position could be dependent on another position. For instance, Minnesota Linebackers. I don't know how good they are and we probably won't know until Pat Williams retires or Detroit gets some damn Dlinemen. Greenway is a sure tackler and a good blitzer but he pretty much roams free because of the Vikings Dline. Sims has more speed than Greenway and is also a very sure tackler like Greenway. Greenway is a better blitzer but again people woudln't be focused as much as stopping a Greenway blitz as as Sims blitz because nobody requires a double team on Detroits line until now with Grady Jackson due to size only. Depth is another issue but again Napolean Harris didn't look too bad off the street(better than Lenon) because of the Vikings Dline whereas Ryan Nece off the street looked like **** in Detroit. Lenon and Sims looked much better in 2007 when they had Shaun Rogers.

Detroits WR depth is an unknown at this point. Bryan Johnson and Ronald Curry have had success in the past. They will not be the number 1 options like they were in San Fran and Oakland. They do have talent however and could fit their roles very nicely if we get some decent QB play. I'd take Green Bays depth and potential over both of them for 2009 plus they know they're playbook well and have a more experience young QB. Both WRs cores could do well though so it really doesn't matter.

Detroits secondary again is dependent on pressure from the Dline. Buchanon and Henry are veteran legitimate starters but neither are a number 1 corners. I don't know how they will do in Schwartz/Gunthers defense. Winfield is better than both of them and Griffen has more potential than both of them but Griffen does get beat a good amount and I wouldn't consider Griffen flat out better than both of them. If Henry and Buchanon were on their old teams would you still consider Griffen better? Green Bay obviously has the best corners with Woodson and Harris, Chicagos secondary got abused last year despite good run D too and Vasher can't stay healthy. What good is injured Vasher and how will he rebound from injury. Tillman is better than Buchanon and Henry but far from perfect. Nickel corner nobody really jumps out at me between Tramon Williams,McBride/Graham/Gordon/McCauley. Eric King is probably Detroits nickel corner coming from the Titans. Another unknown.

Safeties, Bigby and Collins are the best. Vikings Madieu is very good(probably the best safety in the division) but Tyrell Johnson/Kevin Payne are just like Daniel Bullocks. Bullocks is one of the very few surer tacklers in Detroit and another guy I wouldn't lay very much fault on the 0-16 season. A young guy with potential with some playing expereince. Delmas is an unknown but he's a pretty good rookie free safety to obtain. Better than Josh Bullocks or Tyrell Johnson right away, another unknown.

Dlines, this is where Detroit lacked last year and hurts the rest of their rankings. Cliff Avril led rookies in sacks but I'd take Alex Brown and obviously Jared Allen over Avril. Avril and Cullen Jenkins are too different kinds of players. Depends on the D I'm running I guess. DeWayne White is decent but he's not a base end but he will start so we'll probably be undersized at D-End. Ogunleye is a better end but Ray Edwards I don't know if he's better than DeWayne White. Other than that Detroits Dline is terrible, Grady as a stop gap nose which we need but Pat Williams,Raji are better. Dvorcek is the only questionable nose not as good as Grady. Grady's stamina is what hurts him when comparing him to Dusty however. Undertackle Harris and Kevin Williams are clearly better than Fluellen. Raji is a nose has has more potential than Fluellen but its completely different positions. Fluellen is a big unknown and probably will be weak as an undertackle especially with Grady's lack of stamina and no middle linebacker he'll look worse than he actually is.

Detroit is last in defense but there are some positions where we are good(outside Linebackers in Sims and Peterson), some positions were we are decent(Buchanon,Henry,Avril,White,Bullocks,Grady) and some positions where we stink or need a lot of help(Undertackle(unless Fluellen suprises),Middle Linebacker barring Larry Foote,run stopping D-End(barring Kevin Carter).

Detroit needs 1 or 2 more studs probably at Undertackle,Nose tackle for the future or Middle Linebacker to get out of the basement of Defensive rankings.
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Old 05-02-2009, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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We got a Nose Tackle for the future in SLH. We got a MLB for the future in Levy. I think having Grady Jackson will help our current Undertackles and I would be shocked if Foote was not on this roster soon.
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