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Old 01-31-2012, 04:37 PM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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49ers were still terrible on third downs in 2006. Doesn't matter how good the playcalling is, until you get good quarterback play, someone who can throw the ball into tight windows and press the trigger when it's needed with success, you won't consistently move the chains. At some point you just need good players. Smoke and mirrors on offense only goes so far.

Alex needs to take the next step in 2012. Getting him some better targets will help, but at the end of the day it is still going to fall on his shoulders to move the chains. He has to make the throws. He has to be the one to rise up with the team isn't have a good day overall. And that's how it should be. He still hasn't had a game where he has dominated an opponent for four straight quarters. Drops by receivers, bad offensive line play, and bad playcalling won't be an excuse for him next year.
You totally missed the point. I was referring to running on 3rd and short. But you some how you have managed to turn this into a discussion about QB play. When I say Norv was great on 3rd down, I'm talking about the playcall itself and the diversity he showed, not necessarily the exceution of said play. Play-calling was a big issue for me this year on third down. You can call it a excuse, I could care less but they're were far too many instances, be it run or pass, that we played right into the defense's hand and stuck to tendencies we displayed throughout the year. 3rd and short included.

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Old 01-31-2012, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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You totally missed the point. I was referring to running on 3rd and short. But you some how you have managed to turn this into a discussion about QB play. When I say Norv was great on 3rd down, I'm talking about the playcall itself and the diversity he showed, not necessarily the exceution of said play. Play-calling was a big issue for me this year on third down. You can call it a excuse, I could care less but they're were far too many instances, be it run or pass, that we played right into the defense's hand and stuck to tendencies we displayed throughout the year. 3rd and short included.
Who the hell cares how atheistically pleasing the play looks if it doesn't move the chains? You flat out said Norv Turner was outstanding, especially on third downs, which wasn't the case as the 49ers sucked on third downs in 2006 regardless if it was run or pass. I'm just telling you, good quarterback play trumps these problems. It's not a coincidence the top ten teams that convert third downs have franchise quarterbacks. It's kind of a waste of time to be speculating about running on third and short when we know what will fix the problem. If the 49ers passing game improves problems on third down in all areas will be marginalized. The run game will also flourish even more than it did in 2011.

Doesn't matter how pretty the play looks in regards to design and execution. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work period. Players still have to carry out the task. I don't care it's predictable even. If it works it works. Like I said at some point you just need good players to carry out the task.

And quarterback play comes into light, because that is what good teams that convert third downs have. Good quarterback play. And if the discussion stems from third down struggles it's going to be related regardless. It's just something that can't be avoided in today's age. It's completely relevant.

Oh and Dan if you are lurking anywhere, save it. This isn't a bash fest for Alex Smith so don't waste your breath.
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Old 01-31-2012, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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Who the hell cares how atheistically pleasing the play looks if it doesn't move the chains? You flat out said Norv Turner was outstanding, especially on third downs, which wasn't the case as the 49ers sucked on third downs in 2006 regardless if it was run or pass. I'm just telling you, good quarterback play trumps these problems. It's not a coincidence the top ten teams that convert third downs have franchise quarterbacks. It's kind of a waste of time to be speculating about running on third and short when we know what will fix the problem. If the 49ers passing game improves problems on third down in all areas will be marginalized. The run game will also flourish even more than it did in 2011.

Doesn't matter how pretty the play looks in regards to design and execution. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work period. Players still have to carry out the task. I don't care it's predictable even. If it works it works. Like I said at some point you just need good players to carry out the task.

And quarterback play comes into light, because that is what good teams that conrvert third downs have. Good quarterback play. And if the discussion stems from third down struggles it's going to be related regardless. It's just something that can't be avoided in today's age. It's completely relevant.

Oh and Dan if you are lurking anywhere, save it. This isn't a bash fest for Alex Smith so don't waste your breath.
Again, how do you get QB play lumped into converting 3rd and short when running the ball? My intial post was in repsonse to how inept we were running for short yardage, thus the Peyton Hillis debate. Then I alluded to it not all falling on the RB, that the O-Line played a part as well as the play-calling. So why excalty did you chime in with your 'we need better QB play rhetoric' when it clearly wasn't the discussion at hand? No **** QB play has to improve to get better on 3rd down as a whole. But I was clearly discussing our woes converting short yardage running the ball, not why we sucked on 3rd down all together.

And as I said, Norv was great on 3rd down, given the talent(or lack there of) he had to work with. I mean Alex as throwing to guys like Arnaz Battle and Bryan Gilmore for crying out loud and we were still more efficent than we were this year on 3rd downs, check the numbers. Norv knew how to move the pocket and scheme the run. That's why our sack totals were so low for a O-Line that was built to run, not pass-protect. He always put us a position to succeed on any given play, something I can't say about the play-calling this year. And the fact that we had a respectable offensive with a very green 2nd year QB and questionable talent on the outside, I think he did more with less. I can't fault excuetion if I have a problem with the plan itself. You can holler to your blue in the face about the QB needs to step up and make something happen and this, that, and a third. But when you are repeatedly putting your QB at a disvantage with formations, personel, etc, its really hard for me to call out the player. Not saying this excuses Alex from mistakes he made on those downs, but I personally have a fundemental opposition to how we approached 3rd downs this past season. Hopefully it had more to do with the lockout but I think the bane of the offensive inability fell on play-calling and interior O-Line play, not QB. I think I've made that clear in numerous posts before. It obvious you feel good QB trumps bad scheme so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Old 01-31-2012, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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Again, how do you get QB play lumped into converting 3rd and short when running the ball? My intial post was in repsonse to how inept we were running for short yardage, thus the Peyton Hillis debate. Then I alluded to it not all falling on the RB, that the O-Line played a part as well as the play-calling. So why excalty did you chime in with your 'we need better QB play rhetoric' when it clearly wasn't the discussion at hand? No **** QB play has to improve to get better on 3rd down as a whole. But I was clearly discussing our woes converting short yardage running the ball, not why we sucked on 3rd down all together.

And as I said, Norv was great on 3rd down, given the talent(or lack there of) he had to work with. I mean Alex as throwing to guys like Arnaz Battle and Bryan Gilmore for crying out loud and we were still more efficent than we were this year on 3rd downs, check the numbers. Norv knew how to move the pocket and scheme the run. That's why our sack totals were so low for a O-Line that was built to run, not pass-protect. He always put us a position to succeed on any given play, something I can't say about the play-calling this year. And the fact that we had a respectable offensive with a very green 2nd year QB and questionable talent on the outside, I think he did more with less. I can't fault excuetion if I have a problem with the plan itself. You can holler to your blue in the face about the QB needs to step up and make something happen and this, that, and a third. But when you are repeatedly putting your QB at a disvantage with formations, personel, etc, its really hard for me to call out the player. Not saying this excuses Alex from mistakes he made on those downs, but I personally have a fundemental opposition to how we approached 3rd downs this past season. Hopefully it had more to do with the lockout but I think the bane of the offensive inability fell on play-calling and interior O-Line play, not QB. I think I've made that clear in numerous posts before. It obvious you feel good QB trumps bad scheme so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Pretty much. Good quarterbacks make plays instead of making bad headlines. The natural God-given instinct to react and make quick decisions combined with good aestheticism trumps any scheme or system or whatever.

As for the entire hoopla about third downs, I'll just say that I don't recall running the ball this season on third down and short being so bad to the point that it was a miracle we could convert. What I remember about that was even on third and short when we decided it pass it was an inaccurate throw or maybe a dropped pass. I'd say more so an inaccurate throw though on third downs.

I'm bringing up quarterback play because whatever we want to do on third and short via running the football won't matter if the passing game sucks ass. So it doesn't really matter. Better passing attack = short yardage problems on third down via running or passing gone. It's pretty simple. And that's why I brought it up because it was relevant.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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The average distance in the NFC Title game for the 9ers offense on 3rd downs was 8 yards. With the report that Gore had "an array of nagging, smaller injuries by midseason" and the 49ers were starting a WR who opened 5th on the TC depth chart it is hard not to see why the offense struggled. Not using it as an excuse towards Alex's play but the 49ers lack of offense depth at the skill positions was exposed.

I also think we need to tip the hat a bit to the Giants defense/secondary. They shut down the passing game all through the playoffs.
Packers leading WR (in terms of yardage): D. Driver 3 catches, 45 yards
Falcons leading WR (in terms of yardage): J. Jones 7 catches, 64 yards. Held Jones to 9 yards a catch. On the season he averaged 17.8.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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The average distance in the NFC Title game for the 9ers offense on 3rd downs was 8 yards. With the report that Gore had "an array of nagging, smaller injuries by midseason" and the 49ers were starting a WR who opened 5th on the TC depth chart it is hard not to see why the offense struggled. Not using it as an excuse towards Alex's play but the 49ers lack of offense depth at the skill positions was exposed.

I also think we need to tip the hat a bit to the Giants defense/secondary. They shut down the passing game all through the playoffs.
Packers leading WR (in terms of yardage): D. Driver 3 catches, 45 yards
Falcons leading WR (in terms of yardage): J. Jones 7 catches, 64 yards. Held Jones to 9 yards a catch. On the season he averaged 17.8.
Well...no it's not all on Alex. That's not what I'm saying. For this game in particular. That being said he will in the future have to step up his game a little further. There were a couple of instances where he either didn't pull the trigger and fire a pass downfield, or just missed a wide open receiver for a score. The one to Kyle Williams comes to mind. The guy was wide open for a bomb touchdown and Alex overthrew him. Championship quarterbacks make that throw.

The 49ers do need to get him some better receivers though. I'm thinking Morgan comes back strong and takes some pressure off.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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The 49ers do need to get him some better receivers though. I'm thinking Morgan comes back strong and takes some pressure off.
would still prefer to nab one in the draft/FA
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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Well...no it's not all on Alex. That's not what I'm saying. For this game in particular. That being said he will in the future have to step up his game a little further. There were a couple of instances where he either didn't pull the trigger and fire a pass downfield, or just missed a wide open receiver for a score. The one to Kyle Williams comes to mind. The guy was wide open for a bomb touchdown and Alex overthrew him. Championship quarterbacks make that throw.

The 49ers do need to get him some better receivers though. I'm thinking Morgan comes back strong and takes some pressure off.
I understand wanting Alex to pull the trigger more but it does not fit with Harbaugh's philosophy. We have seen in close games Harbaugh preaches not turning the ball over and taking a sack over a turnover because of the value of field position. We know Alex has no problem playing a tentative style of QB. Add in WRs who struggle to consistency beat press and man coverage and you have a bad mix. Something needs to change with this formula and it's more than likely going to be the WRs because we know how the staff feels about Smith.

I did like the observation Barrows' brought up in the last part of this chat question.
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Q: Is Alex smith too inconsistent to win a Super Bowl?
A: No, I think he can do it. But I agree with the notion that he needed to pull the trigger at some point late in that game. One big play would have won it for the 49ers. The difference between Smith when the 49ers are trailing and when they are tied or ahead is vast ....

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The 49ers do need to get him some better receivers though. I'm thinking Morgan comes back strong and takes some pressure off.
WR core will probably look like next season Crabs, Morgan, Williams, FA, Draft Pick, and Ginn. With Moran Norris gone I think SF uses that spot to carry Ginn as a WR/KR/PR and total of 6 WRs.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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would still prefer to nab one in the draft/FA
Marvin Jones via the draft.

Vincent Jackson via free agency.

Those are my selections anyway. Won't surprise me if the 49ers don't make a splash in free agency with a big name at wideout. Those rarely seem to workout I believe. We already tried bringing in Edwards this past year and that flopped badly.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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By the way you folks should stop by the main 49ers message board. A good half of the entire forum believes that Manning is coming to the 49ers LMFAO.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:46 PM    (permalink
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Throw this on here since we are talking FA WRs. Barrows wrote this blog about who he thinks SF will have interest in on the market.
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archiv...exception.html
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The following are some UFA wide receivers who, in my judgment at least, fit the 49ers' profile for receivers. I've ranked them and broken them down by how expensive they'd likely be to sign.

$$$$
Dwayne Bowe
Marques Colston
Vincent Jackson

$$$
Plaxico Burress
Pierre Garcon

$$
Eddie Royal
Early Doucet

$
Micheal Spurlock
Devin Thomas
Plex is the most interesting. 49ers struggled so badly in the red zone and Plex was a red zone monster it seems like a match made in Heaven. Only problem is he looked so terrible on the other 90 yards of the field. SF was trying to fly him out last off-season. Wonder if they make a push for him again.

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Old 01-31-2012, 11:47 PM    (permalink
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WR core will probably look like next season Crabs, Morgan, Williams, FA, Draft Pick, and Ginn. With Moran Norris gone I think SF uses that spot to carry Ginn as a WR/KR/PR and total of 6 WRs.
Six wide receivers? I don't see that happening. Not with the tight end sets this team likes to run. They never have more than four wide receivers out at one time it seems, and even that is rare.

I think either Williams or Ginn leaves.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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Six wide receivers? I don't see that happening. Not with the tight end sets this team likes to run. They never have more than four wide receivers out at one time it seems, and even that is rare.

I think either Williams or Ginn leaves.
True. I still maybe overreacting after the Williams fumbles but I would have no issue carrying Ginn strictly for his KR/PR just so the 49ers aren't stuck in the same spot where we are running out Hastings and Swain as our 3rd and 4th WR.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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[quote=WhatWouldBillyBajemaDo?;2845840]Throw this on here since we are talking FA WRs. Barrows wrote this blog about who he thinks SF will have interest in on the market.
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archiv...exception.html
Quote:
The following are some UFA wide receivers who, in my judgment at least, fit the 49ers' profile for receivers. I've ranked them and broken them down by how expensive they'd likely be to sign.

$$$$
Dwayne Bowe
Marques Colston
Vincent Jackson

$$$
Plaxico Burress
Pierre Garcon

$$
Eddie Royal
Early Doucet

$
Micheal Spurlock
Devin Thomas
[/question]

Plex is the most interesting. 49ers struggled so badly in the red zone and Plex was a red zone monster it seems like a match made in Heaven. Only problem is he looked so terrible on the other 90 yards of the field. SF was trying to fly him out last off-season. Wonder if they make a push for him again.
No thanks to Burress. He'll be 35 next August. I think we need to look for experience and consistency, but at the same time I don't think we should rely on someone that is going to be 35 and maybe have a year or two left in him.

I like Garcon from your listing. Like VAfy-ya said though, his hands are suspect and that killed us this season. I might still be willing to roll the dice though.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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[quote=Ness;2845847]
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Throw this on here since we are talking FA WRs. Barrows wrote this blog about who he thinks SF will have interest in on the market.
http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archiv...exception.html


No thanks to Burress. He'll be 35 next August. I think we need to look for experience and consistency, but at the same time I don't think we should rely on someone that is going to be 35 and maybe have a year or two left in him.

I like Garcon from your listing. Like VAfy-ya said though, his hands are suspect and that killed us this season. I might still be willing to roll the dice though.
The market for Garcon is the biggest mystery to me. He is only 25 and I wonder if some WR needy team ends up overpaying him. A name that I am surprised didn't pop up on the list was M.Manningham. He has his lapses/injuries but is still a big play WR and caught a TD pass in all 3 playoff games this year
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Chaz Schilens seems like the kind of guy the Niners would go after.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:12 AM    (permalink
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Chaz Schilens seems like the kind of guy the Niners would go after.
Probably. I just pray it isn't a complete waste of time. We need a gamebreaker at wideout whoever it is. At least someone who consistently gets open. Like Victor Cruz.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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Imagine if SF had picked Doug Baldwin over Ronald Johnson.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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Imagine if SF had picked Doug Baldwin over Ronald Johnson.
we would have at least one dependable WR?
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Ronald Johnson, what a joke that was.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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we would have at least one dependable WR?
Now I'm going to go give virtual V-Jax a 7 Year, $100 million contract in Madden to make myself feel better.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:29 AM    (permalink
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Now I'm going to go give virtual V-Jax a 7 Year, $100 million contract in Madden to make myself feel better.
I'd rather you just draft well:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...l=en_US#gid=30
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:00 AM    (permalink
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I still want Colston. He fits every need. I won't let my dream die.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:28 AM    (permalink
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I still want Colston. He fits every need. I won't let my dream die.
Isn't he coming off knee surgery? I thought I heard that somewhere. His knees looked mighty fine a couple of weeks ago.
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Old 02-01-2012, 04:44 AM    (permalink
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To me, Colston and Garçon (cool, my phone auto-corrected the accent) seem like guys who would only excel in their systems. Once they go on another team, they will be mediocre. That is what I fear anyways...

But I have faith in this front office to bring in guys that fit with the team.
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