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Old 04-26-2013, 02:11 AM    (permalink
Shupp
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We traded up to 18 not 8, get a gripe. If your drafting top ten, you should expect to land a starter. Anything after that, your hoping a guy is good enough to start but your looking for talent first and foremost, with the potential to start as a rookie.
18 for a safety is high!! This is not a premium position. If you trade up to the teens for a safety then he is absolutely your starter. Get a grip.
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:37 AM    (permalink
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18 for a safety is high!! This is not a premium position. If you trade up to the teens for a safety then he is absolutely your starter. Get a grip.
This was not a noraml draft. Six O-Lineman were selcted in the first round. That has never happened before. A OG was a top 10 pick...conventional thinking about when to draft certain positions needs to be upgraded in a major way. The way the game is now, safety is DEFINTELY a premium position. Live in denail all you want.

2012 - Melvin Ingram
2011 - Corey Liquet
2010 - Maurkice Pouncey
2009 - Robert Ayers
2008 - Joe Flacco
2007 - Leon Hall
2006 - Bobby Carpenter
2005 - Erasmus James

The last 8 players drafted@#18 in the first round. Only Pouncey, Liguet, and Flaaco were Day 1 starters. Some of you need to adjust your expectations just a little.

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Old 04-26-2013, 03:20 AM    (permalink
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And as far as Reid, if you only watch his 2012 film, you feel like we reached. He didn't have the best year. But his first two years we're outstanding. He was easily my top safety after 2011. We was everywhere on the field and made plays routinely and effortlessly. He stood out as a true freshemen in 2010, even playing with guys like Peterson. He struggled this year trying to do too much and being overly aggressive. They didn't have much at a CB so that hurt too. Simon didn't really step up and I think he tried over-compensate for the lost of Claiborne and Mathieu. But if they use him like they used Goldson, he will defintely be a upgrade. Goldson was strictly a zone safety. Reid should really thrive in that role.
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:23 AM    (permalink
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Why is his career defined by having to start as a rookie? Did Dashon start as rookie? No. And before you tell me 'well he was a 5th round pick', the point is you draft players on potential. Not for what they are now, but what you envison they will be down the road. Your priorities about first rounders are misguided. Basically your saying, if you get drafted top 20, you should be a starter immediately. That asinine. It depends on the talent on the team he's going to, how quickly the player develops, and how the team plans on using him. Your too hung up on the fact we traded up for him. That's irrelevant becuase we didn't lose anything of susbstance to make that move. We gave up a 3rd round draft pick and still have another one. We gave up two draft picks to draft Kilgore. He's not starting so why aren't you complaing about that? Bottom line, just because he doesn't start as a rookie doesn't mean anything. Neither CK, Brooks, Aldon, Bowman, or Ray Mac started as rookie. They turned out to be pretty good players, all things considered. Just becuase you start doesn't mean your playing good enough to start. I rather see long term potential as a rookie than worrying about whether or not a guy is good enough to start, right away. I rather ease a young into a starting role than looking at him for immediate impact.
First, you cant compare NOW and what our team is (SB contender) compare to back in 2007 when we sucked. Huge difference. Back then, I was just hoping that the team would eventually get to 8-8 and be a playoff team the following year. Goldson didnt start because he wasnt drafted in a position to start. And he was a 4th round draft pick and had guys ahead of him. Dont remember who but he wasnt anywhere near being a starter because of various reasons. Also, he wasnt a FIRST ROUND DRAFT PICK.

Sorry....YOU DONT DRAFT PLAYERS IN THE FIRST ROUND WITH THE HOPES THAT THEY BECOME A STARTER....YOU DRAFT PLAYERS IN THE FIRST ROUND TO BE STARTERS AND HOPE THAT THEY BECOME A CORNERSTONE AT THEIR RESPECTIVE POSITION.

Regardless of the team, I would never ever draft a player in the first round to NOT be a starter unless its a player in which I already have a starter and am basically grooming him to replace that starter. If we traded up for a DE tonight to replace Justin Smith in 2014, we wouldnt be having this conversation because we already have starters in place and damn good ones.

At FS, however, we have ****!!! And thats exactly what im calling it because thats exactly what it is period. If Reid has to be groomed to be a starter then sorry, he shouldnt have been drafted at 18 and we sure as hell shouldnt have traded up to draft him.

When you lose a starter via FA and you choose to replace him in the first round of the draft, that player better be starting and be as good or better than the guy you let leave.

I dont have a problem with trading up for Reid...even at 31, we would STILL be having this argument because he wasnt drafted to be a ******* special teamer or add depth, no...he was ******* drafted to start week one and replace Goldson, period.

Look at the Vikings.....and what they gave up to draft Patterson. You think they did that for him to be a special teamer or to provide depth? Hell no. They did that so he can start week one opposite Jennings, not sitting on the bench jerking off.

Unless you already have a starter (or two depending on the position), the player you draft in the first round (#1 or #32) better be good enough to be starting at his respective position. Even Mayock has said it....the first three rounds are meant to produce starters, not bench players. Bench players you can get in the mid to late rounds. While im not saying that every player in the first round will be a starter, thats the expectation period. If you dont have the expectation that the player you just drafted in the first round to be starting week one as a rookie or to replace a current starter, then you shouldnt have the job that you have and explains why a lot of teams suck.

Huge difference between trading up in the first round to select a player at 18 overall to a player in the fifth round. Mid to late round picks are rarely if ever expected to become starters. They're expected to be special teamers, backups and provide depth. If you can get starters out of rounds 4-7, then even better but the expectations arent there. Also, with Kilgore, that was during the lockout and we didnt know who was going to be our starting center as Baas was an UFA. We signed veteran Jonathan Goodwin to start at center and quite honestly, I see him staying the starting center for 2013 which proves my point in regards to mid to late round draft picks....they're not expected to start. If Kilgore stays a backup in 2013, thats pretty much what he's going to be. If he was going to be a starter, it would have happened already or at the very least will happen this year.

Kaepernick didnt start because we had a veteran QB in Alex Smith and looking back, Harbaugh figured that if he could make Smith a quality starter, when the time came for Kaepernick to start, he could get some picks for Smith and he played that perfectly. Also, there was a lockout.....in that instance, how can you expect any rookie to start when there was no off-season program, etc.? Aldon didnt start because of the lockout, the transition he was making from DE in a 4-3 to an OLB in a 3-4 and because we had Brooks and Haralson as the starters. Brooks actually did start as a rookie, in fact, he started five games for the Bengals and he wasnt a first round draft pick. He was a third round pick in the supplemental draft. Huge difference. McDonald didnt start because we had Marques Douglas and Bryant Young as the starters. Bowman didnt start because we had Spikes in front of him as the starter.

Every player that you're mentioning all have the same thing in common.....we already had starters in place and with the exception of Aldon, none of them were first rounders and thus, there's no expectation of them starting.

Compare that to FS NOW.....NO STARTER since we let Goldson leave as an UFA. No player currently on the roster who's even half as good as Goldson that can replace him as the starter. We just literally drafted a FS to replace the starting FS we lost in FA and not only that but we traded up 13 spots to get him in order for him to be the starting FS.

If we had a player who could step in and replace Goldson, then there would be no need or reason to not only NOT draft a FS but no need or reason to trade up to do so.

If we would have franchised Goldson (like I said we should have) and the same thing happened just a few hours ago, I wouldnt be happy because I would much rather have an offensive weapon but I would understand the pick and not expect Reid to start since he would have been behind Goldson. Reid would have been drafted to replace Goldson when he does eventually leave. HUGE difference in regards to the circumstances of why the player was drafted.

If we would have traded up and drafted a DE to eventually replace Justin Smith, we wouldnt even be having this conversation because I wouldnt be expecting that player to start because you know, we already have two starters at DE where as with FS, we dont. Again, HUGE difference.

Its just like Jenkins a year ago. We had Crabtree, Williams, signed Manningham and Moss. When we drafted Jenkins, I wasnt happy because I would have preferred a different position because I knew Jenkins wasnt going to start at WR but I wasnt expecting him too either because we signed two WR's that would start ahead of him. Now, if we never signed Moss and Manningham and only had Crabtree, Ginn and Williams and still drafted Jenkins, then you bet your ass that i would have expected him to start opposite Crabtree. After all, who wouldnt expect Jenkins to start over Williams and Ted ******* Ginn??? Come on.

Again.....HUGE difference and its amazing you dont see that. Team is a SB contender and the one major need and hole we have is the one we pick in the first round and trade up for yet you're not expecting him to start??? You've got to be ******* kidding me???

What's next? We lose Justin next March in FA, we draft his replacement in the first round and we have the same ******* argument??? Seriously??? Come on.

Is there a chance that Reid doesnt win the starting FS spot? Yes....will I be happy if that happens? Hell no, I'll be pissed because if Baalke and Harbaugh traded up to select Reid knowing that he wouldnt win the starting spot or not having that expectation for him to start at FS, then why the hell did they waste their time and two draft picks on him?

Bottom ******* line.....im 100% expecting Reid to win the starting FS spot and if he doesnt, sorry, you can label him as a bust because at that moment in time, thats exactly what he'll be because he didnt at the very least meet expectations.

And thats how I look at it regardless of the team/player. First rounders are expected to start unless there's a starter (or two) in front of them. In that case, that first rounder is expected to eventually start when one of the two current starters leaves as an UFA, retires or gets traded.

Nothing you or anyone else will ever change my thinking in that regard and your way of thinking is why more teams than not continue to suck year after year after year because like you, they think that first rounders shouldnt be starting and if thats the case, then why the **** did you draft the son of a ***** to begin with?
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Old 04-26-2013, 03:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
This was not a noraml draft. Six O-Lineman were selcted in the first round. That has never happened before. A OG was a top 10 pick...conventional thinking about when to draft certain positions needs to be upgraded in a major way. The way the game is now, safety is DEFINTELY a premium position. Live in denail all you want.

2012 - Melvin Ingram
2011 - Corey Liquet
2010 - Maurkice Pouncey
2009 - Robert Ayers
2008 - Joe Flacco
2007 - Leon Hall
2006 - Bobby Carpenter
2005 - Erasmus James

The last 8 players drafted@#18 in the first round. Only Pouncey, Liguet, and Flaaco were Day 1 starters. Some of you need to adjust your expectations just a little.
Love how you dont mention who the starters were for those teams of the eight players you listed above. If those teams had starters who were already established, why would anyone expect them to start as a rookie? And there's the difference, WE DONT HAVE A STARTING FS...unless somehow, Goldson going to TB was a dream and he's still a 49er.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:15 AM    (permalink
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I think I'm liking the idea of Ertz/Hunt in the second
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:49 AM    (permalink
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Nothing you or anyone else will ever change my thinking in that regard and your way of thinking is why more teams than not continue to suck year after year after year because like you, they think that first rounders shouldnt be starting and if thats the case, then why the **** did you draft the son of a ***** to begin with?
A good GM doesn't think purely in terms of responding to departures by just plugging players in. That'd be like sticking your fingers in the gap in the levee, a perfect solution until another crack appears. Instead he has to balance the huge number different factors that affect the strength of his roster - age, contracts, potential injuries, availability of replacements, surprise suspensions.

It's the coaches job to worry about how to use the roster to win next season's superbowl. A good GM works through his roster thinking way beyond the next set of playoffs. Will the defence be as strong this year as last year? Possibly not, but will it be twice as strong three years from now? When a GM's making calls like that you know he's building something great and more importantly that he's banking on being around to see the answer.

When Baalke makes the call not to extend Goldson he isn't doing a simple 'Goldson for Reid' exchange, instead he's thinking across positions and contracts several years in advance. "Goldson? I like him, but I need to keep my OL intact and I definitely want to have some cash spare for CK's extension down the line, especially of that connection with Crabtree looks like working out long term." Likewise when he chose to move up for Reid the choice he was making was a combination of "over the course of his career, do I think Eric Reid is a third rounder better than the FS I could take at #31?"

Bottom line: Do I hope Eric Reid starts at FS? Yes, I hope he starts for a decade. Do I care if it's 2013-2023 or 2014-2024? I do not.
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:56 AM    (permalink
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Whats new? People got the same feeling with Aldon and AJ. Maybe Anthony Davis too. I can't remember. I think Iupati is the only 1st round pick that everyone loved unanimously on draft day under Baalke.
Which is why the attitude around here is odd. Remember, guys, Baalke seems to know what he's doing.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:11 AM    (permalink
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I personally had Cyprien and Reid ahead of Vaccaro. I liked Vaccaro, but he wasn't worth the hype, in my opinion.

I understand the thought process of assuming he would be there at 31 - but I don't think he would have. Giants were rumored, Bengals were rumored, at that point does someone else move up?

The most important thing is we came in with 13 picks. I absolutely love moving up and making damn sure you get they guy you want. I think he fits us well, and will contribute sooner rater than later.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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Gotta be honest, when I saw the 49ers traded up (and Vaccaro was gone) I thought it would be for someone else: I had thoughts of Eifert, Rhodes, Trufant, Tank (among others) dancing in my head. When the pick was Reid I was surprised and disappointed.

That all being said, it is clear we need help in our defensive backfield.

I always take the comments post pick with a HUGE grain of salt - the fact that Harbaugh and Baalke said that Reid was their #1 S is what I EXPECT them to say. However, the team's actions obviously speak to the fact that this was a guy they targeted, once Vacarro was off the board they didnt want to risk him going somewhere else. With the overall track record of Baalke I will defer to his wisdom (as we didnt give up much to move into #18).

My excitement builds for the #34 pick because there are players that can fill a need, be good positional/pick value.

Ill admit, I am certainly open for a trade down, but this is the pick I would likely "stick to my guns" about getting adequate compensation based on the trade value chart (at #31, I wouldn't have been as tight fisted simply to move down to add more ammunition).

So my top options for #34:

1 - Trade
2 - Tank
3 - Hunt
4 - Woods

(admittedly there are others that I do like)
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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I'd like to see Tank or Jesse Williams at 34. Possibly Hunter. I'd rather draft Kelce with our late 2nd round pick than Ertz at 34. Don't want Ertz at all. Still don't want Margus Hunt at 34, either, but I could see him possibly being the pick. Can't wait for the draft to resume.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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A good GM doesn't think purely in terms of responding to departures by just plugging players in. That'd be like sticking your fingers in the gap in the levee, a perfect solution until another crack appears. Instead he has to balance the huge number different factors that affect the strength of his roster - age, contracts, potential injuries, availability of replacements, surprise suspensions.

It's the coaches job to worry about how to use the roster to win next season's superbowl. A good GM works through his roster thinking way beyond the next set of playoffs. Will the defence be as strong this year as last year? Possibly not, but will it be twice as strong three years from now? When a GM's making calls like that you know he's building something great and more importantly that he's banking on being around to see the answer.

When Baalke makes the call not to extend Goldson he isn't doing a simple 'Goldson for Reid' exchange, instead he's thinking across positions and contracts several years in advance. "Goldson? I like him, but I need to keep my OL intact and I definitely want to have some cash spare for CK's extension down the line, especially of that connection with Crabtree looks like working out long term." Likewise when he chose to move up for Reid the choice he was making was a combination of "over the course of his career, do I think Eric Reid is a third rounder better than the FS I could take at #31?"

Bottom line: Do I hope Eric Reid starts at FS? Yes, I hope he starts for a decade. Do I care if it's 2013-2023 or 2014-2024? I do not.
Well I be damned, somebody actually gets it....rep
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Eric Reid will start day 1. Stop over-thinking the situation
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by dan77733 View Post
Love how you dont mention who the starters were for those teams of the eight players you listed above. If those teams had starters who were already established, why would anyone expect them to start as a rookie? And there's the difference, WE DONT HAVE A STARTING FS...unless somehow, Goldson going to TB was a dream and he's still a 49er.
And I like how you have a crystal ball an assume the starter at FS against the Packers IS NOT already on the roster or they don't have other plans in place. They could still go out and sign Woodson or some other player. There are alot of options still available to them. Are you around these players everyday? NO! You have no clue what the staff feel about the players already on the roster and how they will contribute going forward. Moving up 13 spots only proves that they liked Reid as a player. That has nothing to do with whether or not they believe he's a day 1 starter.

You let your pre-conceived notion of players(in your very biased eyes) cloud your judgement. You believe Player A is a bum, so therefore he couldn't possibly be starting material. Who at this time last year thought Boone would start at RG? NO-ONE! They may use Reid as just as sub-package/nickel guy the first year and have someone like Spillman or McBath as the FS in the base defense. Never assume you know what's going to happen with this staff on how they evaluate and use players. You will end up with egg on your face, more times than not.

You assume they see Reid as a starter because they moved up to draft him. Sure they do.....eventually. But they moved up becuase he was # 1 on their board at FS, a player they really liked and it was a obviously hole in the roster at that position, with Goldson's departure. A hole doesn't mean the starter isn't already on the roster. It means we needed to add talent to the position and find a possible long term solution at the position. Being talented doesn't guarantee your sucess. Like I keep repeating to you over and over again, good teams draft for the future, not the present. I hope like hell Reid is so dominant that they have no choice to name him the starter from the first mini-camp. But I won't condemn the pick if it ends up he isn't the starter his first year. That's my problem with your argument. No one's career is defined by whether or not they were good enough to start their first year, at a position of need. That's where your logic fails.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Go Niners!! I'm going to be positive today no matter who they pick. I got my bitching out of the way last night.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by ndbigdave View Post
Gotta be honest, when I saw the 49ers traded up (and Vaccaro was gone) I thought it would be for someone else: I had thoughts of Eifert, Rhodes, Trufant, Tank (among others) dancing in my head. When the pick was Reid I was surprised and disappointed.

That all being said, it is clear we need help in our defensive backfield.

I always take the comments post pick with a HUGE grain of salt - the fact that Harbaugh and Baalke said that Reid was their #1 S is what I EXPECT them to say. However, the team's actions obviously speak to the fact that this was a guy they targeted, once Vacarro was off the board they didnt want to risk him going somewhere else. With the overall track record of Baalke I will defer to his wisdom (as we didnt give up much to move into #18).

My excitement builds for the #34 pick because there are players that can fill a need, be good positional/pick value.

Ill admit, I am certainly open for a trade down, but this is the pick I would likely "stick to my guns" about getting adequate compensation based on the trade value chart (at #31, I wouldn't have been as tight fisted simply to move down to add more ammunition).

So my top options for #34:

1 - Trade
2 - Tank
3 - Hunt
4 - Woods

(admittedly there are others that I do like)
Got some great options there, I'd be happy with Justin Hunter also but that's a longshot.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by YAYareaRB View Post
Eric Reid will start day 1. Stop over-thinking the situation
Absolutely agree, I'm embracing the kid today. I thought his film was pretty good and some of his criticisms were a little overblown.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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The fact that Dan believes ALL first round picks should be immediate starters says it all. That logic is so flawed, its laughable. I'm done arguing the point becuase you can't combat ass-backwards rationale like that. There's no point. Why I just came to this realization at this moment? I have no idea....
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Man Y'all are still bitching about last night pick? I can't for him to get started personally. He'll be a great help and should fill in nicely will more and more playing and help from our staff. We knew safety was our biggest need and was probably gonna be a first round pick. I just never thought we would have to trade up for it though. I also didn't mind the trade up it was a steel IMO compared o the vikings any ways. I'm sure if Reid was and took Elam at 31 you guys would still complain about the pick. Just saying ... Watch some how our second round picks will fire you guys up some how.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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Everyone has their own opinion and can believe whatever the hell they want. I do believe that first rounders should be starters unless there's already a starter or two ahead of the player that was just drafted in the first round...after all, if they're not, why the hell are you drafting them in the first round?

But whatever, to each his own. I fully expect Reid to be our starting FS come week one and will be disappointed and pissed off if he isnt. Enough said.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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From rotoworld.com.....read the Maiocco part....

The 49ers believe No. 18 pick Eric Reid has the ability to be an "all-around safety." "He can play high, he can play low, he's done a lot in the back half, and he's done a lot moving up into the box," GM Trent Baalke said. "We felt he inserted strong and played the type of ball that we wanted to see out of safety." CSN Bay Area's Matt Maiocco believes the Niners will be disappointed if Reid can't earn a starting job opposite Donte Whitner "decisively." Reid should have what it takes to beat out Craig Dahl. Apr 26 - 11:51 AM.....

It says the same damn thing I have been saying since last night and like me, Baalke/Harbaugh will be disappointed if Reid doesnt earn the starting FS spot....."DECISIVELY"....

Backup????? Backup, my ass!!!
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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We can go ahead and file the "1st rounder = starter" debate in the "who gives a fucck" folder.

Hunter
Trade
Williams
Tank
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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But whatever, to each his own.
Word.

I'm most excited about the quarterbacks here in the early going of round 2. It sounds like we have our guy eyed up already (no surprise), but at some point these quarterbacks are coming off the board.

Geno Smith
Matt Barkley
Mike Glennon
Ryan Nassib
Tyler Wilson

Throw in Manti Te'o, Menilik Watson, Terron Armstead - all guys that I can't imagine us taking and we're talking about some serious talent being pushed our way for our SECOND 2nd rounder.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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I'm hoping for whichever 3-4 DE Baalke/Harbaugh thinks can eventually replace Justin at 34 and TE Vance McDonald at 61 since I dont think Ertz will still be there. CB at 93.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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I'm hoping for whichever 3-4 DE Baalke/Harbaugh thinks can eventually replace Justin at 34 and TE Vance McDonald at 61 since I dont think Ertz will still be there. CB at 93.
Travis Kelce is the TE I want the most.
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