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Old 04-15-2009, 02:03 PM    (permalink
bored of education
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Originally Posted by MidwayMonster31 View Post
I think we can all agree that BOE has successfully disarmed this argument. Teams adjusted to Anderson, and there were other problems within the Browns. Jamal Lewis showed his age and couldn't break any runs, Braylon Edwards forgot how to catch, Joe Jurevicius got hurt and Kellen Winslow got a staph infection.
Plus, people who think Cutler is overrated are acting like he's 38, he's 26 and has improved every year. He does need to improve his efficiency, but he has shown the ability to improve. He should be better than any of the crap that we've had recently.
true, when I want to I can actually add substance to a convo :)
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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You can't disarm an argument in which the outcome is unknown. The point is we'll see.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:10 PM    (permalink
bored of education
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You can't disarm an argument in which the outcome is unknown. The point is we'll see.
The point is that DA is NOT a starter and would be starter for about 6-8 teams in the NFL. Cutler would be the starter of about 28.

Is that a reach?
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MidwayMonster31 View Post
I think we can all agree that BOE has successfully disarmed this argument. Teams adjusted to Anderson, and there were other problems within the Browns. Jamal Lewis showed his age and couldn't break any runs, Braylon Edwards forgot how to catch, Joe Jurevicius got hurt and Kellen Winslow got a staph infection.
Plus, people who think Cutler is overrated are acting like he's 38, he's 26 and has improved every year. He does need to improve his efficiency, but he has shown the ability to improve. He should be better than any of the crap that we've had recently.
That's another thing too: He had game film on him. Look at VY's rookie year. He came in, was able to make plays despite his lack of passing ability, and was actually quite a good QB(not pro bowl worthy, however. not close). That's even without improving his passing. Becoming just an average passer would have made him Vick level, which isn't bad. A QBs job isn't necessarily to pass the ball, but to make plays to move his team down the field, and Vince did that. But, I digress.

Second year, those running lanes start disappearing. He was learning to dump off rather than take it in, which is why his comp% SKYROCKETED but his ypa only bumped up a yard. Any other guy has his comp% increase like 10+% would expect a huge increase in his ypa but it didn't happen because he dumped the ball off more. Didn't cut down on INTs, had a not so great season. Then this season he was sucking till he was pulled, because he did not adequately adjust over the years.

Now, let's look at Cutler. Quietly, he had quite the rookie year. 9 TD 5 INT, which is quite good. Comp% was IIRC 57 or 59, not bad at all for a rookie. Had he started in week 5 or so, and had that year extrapolated, he could have won ROY over VY. Second year, he struggled a bit. Teams had learned some of his tendencies and forced him to adjust. He did well enough, although not great. Had some excellent games, had some poor ones, had some mediocre ones. Then this past season, he came out playing really well(played like a top 3 QB for the first few games), but as the season went on and he had to carry more and more of the load, he struggled a bit. Still came out with a very good season, deserving of the Pro Bowl he got(Rivers should have taken Favre's spot, not Cutler's).

DA came out of nowhere, had an excellent season, teams adjusted, he didn't.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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The point is that DA is NOT a starter and would be starter for about 6-8 teams in the NFL. Cutler would be the starter of about 28.

Is that a reach?
Agreed, as it stands now.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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You can't disarm an argument in which the outcome is unknown. The point is we'll see.
The Sun will not rise tomorrow. You can't disarm that.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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The Sun will not rise tomorrow. You can't disarm that.
That's exactly my point, you can't "finish" an argument when the subject in question hasn't happened yet.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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See, the main difference to me, is that Anderson was coming off 1 year of 3500+ yards with 19:14 TD:INT ratio and 56% completion rate.

Whereas, Cutler had a very similar season in 07, with 3500 yards, 20:14 TD:INT ratio, and 63% completion rate. He had 1 more TD and better completion % with just 200 less yards. THEN he followed up in 08 by improving to 4500 yards, 25:18 TD:INT ratio and 62% completion rate. He improved his yards by alot and TDs, threw .25 more INTs per game, and his completion % basically stayed the same.

How can you say Cutler is coming off 1 good year, when he had an almost identical 2007 to Anderson, then followed it up with a better year? Sure, Cutler may regress a little this season, mainly because he has switched from an offense heavy Broncos team to the the Chicago Matt Fortes. However, you cannot say he has had 1 good year and is unproven, because he had the same year as Anderson in 07 and then followed it up in 08 with a better year. He is already more proven than Anderson was ever close to being.
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Old 04-15-2009, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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On second thought, I wish I didn't waste so much time with my previous post. I could have just said this:


Because he's better than Anderson.
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:26 PM    (permalink
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Because the talent level is crazy different. They aren't even comparable.

On a slightly different note, I think it's wrong to say that Cutler carried the team though, because that assumes that there was no talent on offense. He was protected well by a good offensive line, the running backs put up good numbers and he was throwing to a number of very talented receivers. And if he "carried" the team, maybe he would have thrown more TDs than INTs in the last few weeks.

I don't think that is the current topic, but is just something I noticed some people saying.
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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If you really don't get it Anderson had 8 good games where he performed like a legit franchise QB, after that things fell apart as he got exposed as just a big arm. Cutler has been starting for over two eyars now and has shown that he can carry that team. If DA has a season like his first 8 games of 2007 and Cutler struggles this season then they'll be comparable, although so far that tape shows Jay way ahead.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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Cutler basically carried a Broncos team that had no D an lost coutless RB's. An almost led them to the playoffs. thats pretty good
What he said. Plus you have to take into account that Cutler didn't come from nowhere. He was always expected to do well in the NFL, and him showing that ability just confirms what people thought about him when he was drafted. You don't make the steady progress he's been making by accident. Derek Anderson was a guy that came out of nowhere and had a big year. Cutler went from sitting one year, to showing good improvement the next, to being a Pro Bowler. Before last season he was the guy to watch at the QB spot, and he delivered. You also have to take into account how utterly stupid it is to trade the guy.

Whether you think he's good or not is irrelevant to being in the front office. If you have had trouble finding a QB in the past you don't get rid of the guy who shows the improvement you've been looking for. If you were in the Broncos front office would you trade a guy your traded up to get that made the Pro Bowl in his third year? The utter nonsense of trading the guy is what really contributes to the hype.
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Old 04-15-2009, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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They had the 12th most rushing yards in the league and had the 3rd highest yards per rush attempt. I'd hardly say they had no running game.

I also don't see why you'd say they don't have similar arms, although I agree Cutler is more mobile. The 17-1 or whatever is impressive, but what would you expect when leading an offense that scores as many points as Denver did? It's a good stat, but it's a bit misleading. I mean theoretically, an offensive-based team should almost ALWAYS win if their D is doing a decent enough job to keep them under 3 TDs.
But they didn't score that many points though. They were ranked 16th in scoring, but were number 2 in offense because of yards (which is absolutely useless without the points).
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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This thread is bordering on idiotic proportions due to 3pac's suggestion that Cutler isn't going to do well due to Anderson struggling.
Plus, only looking at the stats. Anyone with a brain that watched the Broncos play could tell their running game suffered drastically, especially with the injuries. And their yards per carry was high because they benefited from a lot of big gains that had relatively little significance in the game. For instance, the last game of the season,Tatum Bell had 8 carries for 87 yards. Chargers didn't give a rats behind about the Broncos running game, and Bell got a lot of big gains that resulted in nothing.
Against the Bills, the Eddie Royal had a 71 yard run on a reverse that skyrocketed the average and total yards.
Cutler had to work with an inefficient run game due to so many RB's getting hurt.
Plus, the defense was so god awful NO QB would have the team over .500. It was a miracle Cutler led the team to an 8-8 record to be honest.

Plus, this is Cutler's only 4th year in the league, and as it has been noted, he has progressed each year.
Derek Anderson's crappy completion % and poor interception totals have stayed the same.
Plus, while Cutler threw 18 interceptions last year, he also had the 2nd most pass attempts in the league and averaged an interception every 34 pass attempts.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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What has he done that Derek Anderson didn't do prior to last season? Anderson almost led the Browns to the playoffs (like Cutler), had a Pro Bowl season (like Cutler), and was the beneficiary of a high-powered and explosive offense (like Cutler). They're even similar in age... and look how DA turned out.

So why does Cutler, a 17-20 record starter with only one Pro Bowl season warrant so much hype? I really don't understand it. Not to mention that the Bears team he's going to isn't nearly the offensive force that Denver's was.

This just seems so silly to me, and I feel like I'm the only one who notices the glaring overhype.
I'm so proud of the board that this thread is only 3 pages.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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See, the main difference to me, is that Anderson was coming off 1 year of 3500+ yards with 19:14 TD:INT ratio and 56% completion rate.
Um, I strongly dislike Anderson, but you're stats are wrong. He had 29 tds 19 ints. I'm no mathmagician, but I don't think that's the same as 19:14. But yes, Anderson is a phony who isn't anywhere near Cutler...I think that was your point anyways.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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Will Cutler do as well with the Bears is actually the right question? Their defense isn't as good as it was in 2005-06, and they only have Forte on offense plus a very bad oline compared to the one Denver has.

Also, Cutler won't be Anderson. The biggest fear Bears fans should have is if they got another Jeff George on their hands. Jay has all the physical talent in the world but it doesn't matter if he doesn't have what it takes between the shoulders. This whole debacle probably wouldn't have happened if he had managed to beat either the Chiefs or the Raiders twice. But he couldn't even do that even when Peyton Hillis was still healthy.
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Old 04-16-2009, 03:14 AM    (permalink
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"Carried" is stupid anyway, they stole at least 2 games on some of the most terrible officiating I'd ever seen.
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Will Cutler do as well with the Bears is actually the right question? Their defense isn't as good as it was in 2005-06, and they only have Forte on offense plus a very bad oline compared to the one Denver has.

Also, Cutler won't be Anderson. The biggest fear Bears fans should have is if they got another Jeff George on their hands. Jay has all the physical talent in the world but it doesn't matter if he doesn't have what it takes between the shoulders. This whole debacle probably wouldn't have happened if he had managed to beat either the Chiefs or the Raiders twice. But he couldn't even do that even when Peyton Hillis was still healthy.
So you put the blame on Cutler for the defense not being able to stop 2 of the worst offenses in the NFL? Yeah, thats awesome of ya!
And thats more so against the Chiefs than the Raiders. The defense sucked balls against the Chiefs and two early fumbles from Royal and Marshall sealed the fate that day.

Still, putting the pressure on Cutler saying why didn't he win more is just ridiculous with how awful the Broncos D was last year and his entire tenure there really.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
"Carried" is stupid anyway, they stole at least 2 games on some of the most terrible officiating I'd ever seen.
agreed, I will definately give you that one.
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Old 04-17-2009, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Flippityskip91 View Post
Um, I strongly dislike Anderson, but you're stats are wrong. He had 29 tds 19 ints. I'm no mathmagician, but I don't think that's the same as 19:14. But yes, Anderson is a phony who isn't anywhere near Cutler...I think that was your point anyways.
Yea, no idea where I got 19:14...:(

Still, besides those 29 TDs, not much difference between Anderson's breakout year and Cutler's 2nd year.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:17 PM    (permalink
Xenos
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Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
So you put the blame on Cutler for the defense not being able to stop 2 of the worst offenses in the NFL? Yeah, thats awesome of ya!
And thats more so against the Chiefs than the Raiders. The defense sucked balls against the Chiefs and two early fumbles from Royal and Marshall sealed the fate that day.

Still, putting the pressure on Cutler saying why didn't he win more is just ridiculous with how awful the Broncos D was last year and his entire tenure there really.
No, I put the blame on Cutler for not being able to beat two of the worst defenses in the NFL. He doesn't even have the no running game excuse against the Raiders since Hillis was healthy for that game.
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Old 04-18-2009, 06:31 AM    (permalink
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Like someone said, Cutler is 17-1 when the defense held the opponents to 21 or less points.
I really hate that arguement. If a defense keeps a team to less than 21, they should win.

Tavaris Jackson, you know that completely useless hack, is 8 and 2 in his career when the defense does the same.

Derek Anderson is 10 and 4, not great, but neither is he, and in his one good season was 6 and 1.

Michael Vick was 32 and 6.

All of Ryan Leaf's wins came in that fashion, in fact if Leaf's defenses could have always kept his opposition under 21 then Leaf would probably still have a job...

It is a poor arguement, it is the type of stat that fan boys make up to excuse a bigger problem or to make a point when they don't have better material.

Personally, I think Cutler is a good player, who was in a great situation for stat padding, poor defense, very good receivers and OL, inconsistent running game. Basically the perfect situation for a QB to put up big numbers, outside of rating, where Cutler is smack bang on average. I think he should make CHicago a better offense.

What I don't agree was that he was a good trade, he put up very similar numbers to what a healthy Orton did when situations are compared, he has got a better arm, but he now will have to do it with a real question mark line and nothing else. I think this year will test him, he certainly seems to be mentally weak, whether he is or not will be proven over the next couple of years, especially if he doesn't set the world on fire.

Cutler does get one massive positive. He will play in the NFC north. That means two games against Detroit, 2 games against Green Bay who may struggle with a new defensive scheme and 2 games against Minnesota who are just about pathetic against the pass, though without Sharper that may improve markedly this year.

Going to make things fun regardless. I think Chicago gave up too much but that it is possible for Cutler to rectify that, if Cutler greatly exceeds what he has done so far in his career it will be a good trade for Chicago, if he stays par it will be a slight loss, if he were to regress though, it would be a nightmare.

As for the original topic, Cutler was a very polarising player when he was drafted, people either thought he was Marino or Leaf, didn't seem to have that in between element, so far he has been distinctly in between and thanks to Young losing the plot and Warner being reborn, he has looked better than the other QBs in his draft, which means those who thought he was Marino are being as loud as possible backing their decision as a "told you so" whilst those who backed other players or thought he would be worse than he is, are staying quiet, which gives a very one sided view on him.
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Old 04-18-2009, 06:33 AM    (permalink
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Why?

because he's good. thats why.
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Old 04-18-2009, 07:46 PM    (permalink
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Another thing you should be concerned with Jay is his drinking especially with his diabetic problems. I remember reading on some Denver board (orangemane) about how he got wasted the night before the second Raiders game, which some believe was the reason he did so badly against them. Now this is all speculation and could just be disgruntled Denver fans, but it makes me wonder how he did so horrible against a pretty bad Raider defense at home.
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