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Old 04-21-2009, 03:47 PM    (permalink
Paul
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Originally Posted by Nalej View Post
He IS in already. That's not the debate.
The debate is do you think he deserves to be in.

I'll call him a Game Manager. You can call him a team player. I call him a THE leader of the team in that era. So would the rest of 90's cowboys.
You can argue all you want of what he COULD have done.
I'll just stick to what he DIDN'T do. QB of 3 SB winning teams, one of which he was the MVP,an All-Pro and made it to multiple pro bowls. What else do you want.
He put up avg stats on a great team. As burns already mentioned, on a run heavy team. But seriously how do question a players value purely based on stats?

As for 6 Pro Bowls? I'll go back to T. Holt.
He's been to 7 and been All Pro twice (1st n 2nd team)
Still, Holt needs to prove himself.


Football is a team sport but you go to the HOF based on your indivisual accomplishments... plus rings.
Responses in bold.

Did you ever watch him play in the early to mid 90's? You've seem to rely to heavily on stats.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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No, I'm betting all this guy did was look at stats.

Anyone on here who was around to see Aikman play knows his worth.

He was FIRST BALLOT..

We're not talking Art Monk here. You don't make it in on the first ballot if you aren't worthy.

Maybe we can look at some of the seniors who got in and say they didn't quite deserve it. For example, you would have a much better argument going after Bob Hayes. You have no argument going after a first ballot HoFer like Aikman.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nalej View Post
He IS in already. That's not the debate.
The debate is do you think he deserves to be in.

I'll call him a Game Manager. You can call him a team player.
You can argue all you want of what he COULD have done.
I'll just stick to what he DIDN'T do.
He put up avg stats on a great team.

As for 6 Pro Bowls? I'll go back to T. Holt.
He's been to 7 and been All Pro twice (1st n 2nd team)
Still, Holt needs to prove himself.


Football is a team sport but you go to the HOF based on your indivisual accomplishments... plus rings.
Holt doesn't need to prove himself to me. If he got in the Hall I'd be all for it. He was one of the most consistent and fundamentally sound wideouts in his prime. Him and Marvin Harrison are really in the same boat if you ask me. Both guys are skilled receivers in great offenses. Both have a ring. Both guys got less hype opposed to bigger receivers in size and mouth in Moss, T.O., and they even talked about Keyshawn more than those two. Only difference is that Harrison has better numbers and didn't have Wayne his whole career. But you can easily say that Bruce and Faulk would take stats away from Torry, Harrison is 3 years older, and that Holt didn't have Peyton. The biggest factor for HOF is how you stack them compared to other wide outs of their time. Irvin easily gets in because his stats and impact were neck and neck with the top WRs(Rice, Carter, and Brown). Plus Irvin played with the all time leading rusher that took away stats, and an injury forced him into retirement. You can make an argument for Irvin being elite in his heyday against the receivers I just named. Can we say the same for Holt? Moss, T.O., and Harrison are obviously making the Hall barring stupid politics. Ater that then who else? Steve Smith can make a run if he has 3 or 4 more seasons like he usually has. Same thing with Anquan Boldin. Chad Johnson has some serious numbers too. What point do you say no to any more receivers from a particular era? Isaac Bruce deserves a mention too. After all he was Torry's teammate, and the number one guy for Torry's early years when he was developing.

Honestly I'd put Moss, T.O., Harrison, Holt, and Bruce in at this point if it were up to me. If Smith and Boldin stay on pace I'd put them in too. There's no limit to how many of a certain type of player I'd put in. If they're elite for an extended period of time(6-8 years IMO) then they have my vote.
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Old 04-21-2009, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Yes and Torry Holt is a HOF as well.
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Burns336 View Post
No, I'm betting all this guy did was look at stats.

Anyone on here who was around to see Aikman play knows his worth.

He was FIRST BALLOT..

We're not talking Art Monk here. You don't make it in on the first ballot if you aren't worthy.

Maybe we can look at some of the seniors who got in and say they didn't quite deserve it. For example, you would have a much better argument going after Bob Hayes. You have no argument going after a first ballot HoFer like Aikman.
No way did Aikman deserve to be a first ballot hall of famer. That should be reserved for the creme de la creme. Aikman undoubtedly deserves to be in the HOF, but not on his first ballot.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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I tried to keep out of this thread cause I'm a Cowboy fan that doesn't want to look biased. But Cowboy's media hype hasn't gotten anyone into the Hall of Fame. If that was the case then there would be more than 9 players in the Hall of Fame. I know it looks like I'm biased because I'm a Cowboy fan, but how can a team that has accomplished so much in history have less players in the Hall than teams with lesser wins. Hell there are more Redskins in the Hall of Fame than the Cowboys, but the Cowboys have more Division titles, Playoff wins, Conference Championships, Super Bowl wins, and head to head wins over them. I'll be the first to tell you that I hate the Redskins with a passion, but I'm throwing out facts here.

Aikman deserves to be in the Hall not based on his wins. I don't give QBs credit for team success. He deserves to be in because he stepped up like a Hall of Famer when they needed him to. He just had a great supporting cast around him that dwindled his numbers. But he was a huge factor in winning crucial games when the passing game needed it. There were better quarterbacks than him, but he still was always top 5 in minimum in his prime. If he played on another team he'd have close to 50,000 yards and more touchdowns. Besides if Steve Young can go in first ballot Troy should too. Steve was good too, but you can make a similar argument that he was just in a good offense with a legendary receiver. Besides the real person to argue for is Darren Woodson. I've seen people argue for Brian Dawkins, John Lynch, and Steve Atwater, but Woody deserves to be in just as much, if not more than them. But when his time comes I'm sure people will disregard his role on a top defense that won 3 Super Bowls because "he was only seen as good because of Cowboy media hype."
This is a load of bogus, if you want to talk about media bias in the HoF how about a team that has been to 6 Super Bowls and has exactly 2 people in the HoF. I will say, HoF voters put WAY too much stock into postseason stats and team success, ie all those Steelers in the HoF. I mean, Randy Gradishar from all I've read and heard was one of the best LB's ever, yet he hasn't sniffed the HoF.
And Steve Atwater was better than Darren Woodson. But both those guys should be in, however neither will because they didn't put up the "sexy" stats.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by awfullyquiet View Post
again, always the question is, do the rings make you HoF worthy?

handing it off to arguably the second greatest RB of all time, and the greatest run blocking OLs of all time... i believe you could plug quite a few good qb's in there and watch them flourish. good qb's do not make the HoF.
Once you add the 's' to the end of 'ring' then the answer to that question is almost always yes. Rings hold more bearing other stat or number you can produce. Because, after all, you play to win the game.

To tell the truth, regular season statistics are about the most worthless thing you can measure a player's greatness. All it can do is point you in the general direction of "was he good or not." True greatness shines in big, meaningful games, not in week five against some scrub (cough Peyton cough).

Let's look at Troy's postseason stats. He played exactly 16 postseason games in his career, a perfect number to compare it to his regular season stats.

Record: 11-5 in the postseason (3 Superbowl wins)
320 Completions
502 Attempts
3849 Yards
63.7% 7.7 YPA
23 Touchdowns
17 Interceptions
88.3 QB Rating

Far better than even his regular season performance. Looks to me like Troy Aikman played his best in the biggest games of his career. Now that a Hall of Famer.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Aikman as a first ballot HOF, lol. [Turns out he was, LOL @ me!]

We're talking about a guy who threw more than 20 TDs only once is his career, that's pathetic. 16 game seasons, and he averaged exactly 1 TD pass per game played: 165 TDs and 141 INTs in 165 GS/165 GP. He couldn't even average 8.0 passing yards per attempt in one season in his career, when he had Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper.

Now credit where it's due, the Cowboys drafted Aikman first overall and he helped win a Super Bowl (the other two, meh). So he delivered on that great expectation, and not just as a first overall pick QB but as a first overall pick QB for a franchise that was in the dumps. That's big. And of course, he was a great player in his time. He was part of one of the NFL's dynasties. That all automatically earns him the discussion/debate.

But not HOF worthy. The problem with Aikman imo is that he wasn't truly great for a long enough period of time nor was he good enough for a much longer period of time. He falls just shy in the former, and the concussions aren't enough to excuse the latter.

Maybe he was your childhood hero/idol, I loved the guy when I was younger, but let's get a grip. He was more the product of Jimmy Johnson and the running game. Once the former left and the latter declined, Aikman dropped off hard.

In his last four seasons (97-00) as the starting QB of the Cowboys, Aikman "led" the Cowboys to a 24-28 record and the once super-accurate passer couldn't even muster a 60 percent completion rate in one single season.

This is the Hall of Fame. The Greatest of the Great. You put Aikman in, heck you might as well put Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, and God knows who else in the years to come.

[Edit: Okay Aikman is already in. Brain fart. And I can live with it, although I hope guys like Simms, Esiason, and whoever questionable in the years to come don't get a free pass.]
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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Ken Anderson should be in!
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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All this talk of the 90's NFL makes me want to watch some old Niners DVDs of Steve and Jerry.

BTW, Geo has a nice post there.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Aikman as a first ballot HOF, lol. There's bound to be at least Cowboys fan who doesn't disappoint in embarrassing themselves.

We're talking about a guy who threw more than 20 TDs only once is his career, that's pathetic. 16 game seasons, and he averaged exactly 1 TD pass per game played: 165 TDs and 141 INTs in 165 GS/165 GP. He couldn't even average 8.0 passing yards per attempt in one season in his career, when he had Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper.

Now credit where it's due, the Cowboys drafted Aikman first overall and he helped win a Super Bowl (the other two, meh). So he delivered on that great expectation, and not just as a first overall pick QB but as a first overall pick QB for a franchise that was in the dumps. That's big. And of course, he was a great player in his time. He was part of one of the NFL's dynasties. That all automatically earns him the discussion/debate.

But not HOF worthy. The problem with Aikman is that he wasn't truly great for a long enough period of time nor was he good enough for a much longer period of time. He falls just shy in the former, and the concussions aren't enough to excuse the latter.

Maybe he was your childhood hero/idol, I loved the guy when I was younger, but get a freaking grip. He was a product of Jimmy Johnson and the running game. Once the former left and the latter declined, Aikman dropped off hard.

In his last four seasons (97-00) as the starting QB of the Cowboys, Aikman "led" the Cowboys to a 24-28 record and the once super-accurate passer couldn't even muster a 60 percent completion rate in one single season.

This is the Hall of Fame. The Greatest of the Great. You put Aikman in, **** you might as well put Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, and God knows who else in the years to come.
Embarrassed myself huh?

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/me...?player_id=254

You do realize Aikman has already been inducted into the Hall of Fame on his first try, don't you?

Oh, you didn't? Try the Pro Football Hall of Fame website sometime, it works wonders.

He was voted in by his peers as a FIRST BALLOT HALL OF FAMER. This is not a Cowboy fan "embarrassing himself", this is a fact.

God damn, Haters gotta hate I guess.

I have people in here arguing with me that he "shouldn't get in" and they don't even know that he has already been inducted. Jesus.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:41 PM    (permalink
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He IS in already. That's not the debate.
The debate is do you think he deserves to be in.

I'll call him a Game Manager. You can call him a team player.
You can argue all you want of what he COULD have done.
I'll just stick to what he DIDN'T do.
He put up avg stats on a great team.

As for 6 Pro Bowls? I'll go back to T. Holt.
He's been to 7 and been All Pro twice (1st n 2nd team)
Still, Holt needs to prove himself.


Football is a team sport but you go to the HOF based on your indivisual accomplishments... plus rings.

you have a good argument i must say
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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With their high-powered offense and stingy defense, the 13-3 Cowboys swept through the 1992 NFL playoffs, scoring a combined total of 116 points in three games including a 52-17 victory over the Buffalo Bills in Super Bowl XXVII. Aikman's 22 of 30 for 273 yards passing and four touchdowns earned him Super Bowl MVP honors.

Over the next three seasons, the Cowboys enjoyed three consecutive 12-4 records and victories in Super Bowls XXVIII and XXX. Aikman, wide receiver Michael Irvin, and running back Emmitt Smith delivered an offensive attack that opponents found nearly impossible to contain. When defenses focused on Irvin and/or Smith, Aikman would find tight end Jay Novacek or wide receiver Alvin Harper. In the 1994 NFC Divisional Playoff Game against the Green Bay Packers, Aikman completed 23 of 30 passes for 337 yards. Irvin, Novacek, and Harper, each had more than 100 yards receiving. Aikman's 94-yard touchdown pass to Harper was the longest play from scrimmage in NFL post-season history at the time.

With 90 wins in the 1990s, Aikman became the winningest starting quarterback of any decade in NFL history. Unfortunately, during his final two seasons, injuries began to take a toll on the Dallas quarterback and the team's winning ways. Finally, after the 2000 season, the Cowboys' six-time Pro Bowl selection announced his retirement from football. His career statistics include 32,942 yards and 165 touchdowns for a passer rating of 81.6.


Oh and Geo, how nice of you to use his final injury plagued seasons (with no receiving threats at all on the team) as a measuring stick.

This is why statistics are crap. Because people manipulate them.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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or they're arguing that he wasn't worthy, whether he made it on the first ballot or not, which is the question the thread actually asks. but i'm sure you're still not embarrassed by a lack of ability to comprehend fairly simple english.

the amount of rabid, vapid, mouth froth generated by certain groups of fans anytime one of "their players" is even remotely insulted is pretty entertaining.
Go back and read the posts. Only about half of the naysayers realize that he's even in the HoF and are debating whether he belongs there.

The rest, Such are Geo, are making fun of me for calling him a first ballot HoFer -- implying that he hasn't been inducted yet.

So thanks for the input, but you're wrong.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:47 PM    (permalink
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I posted stats to show performance level in a big game -- I also posted stats that show he was the winningest QB of his time.

Far different from showing career stats, or harping on overall bad seasons.

Like YFS said above -- look at the big game performance when it counts.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Look you guys can argue all you want. The fact is, a panel of his peers and former NFL greats decided that Aikman was good enough to be inducted on his first ballot.

Now that might now mean anything to some of you, but it means just about everything to me.

No matter who the player, or what team they played for. If you get in on the first or second ballot -- you belong there in my opinion.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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so it ONLY counts when he did well? what a crappy, intellectually dishonest argument. but i guess you'll also spin his nearly 1:1 td/int ratio.

and his career stats are somehow irrelevant? heh, that's entertaining.

some people shouldn't leave their team forums.
NJX, are you honestly going to tell me that when a player performs well in HUGE games, that we should view it the same way as if that player blew a team out in week 1?

Or how about the other way around? Are you going to tell me if a player is a regular season superstar, but can't pull it together in the playoffs -- we shouldn't take the atmosphere or type of games into account?

You don't believe that. You're just arguing.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Literally, I actually forgot Aikman was already voted in the HOF. That's incredibly disappointing yet also extremely hilarious.

So on that point I apologize to you, Burnsy.

That is worse than Art Monk getting in. Hell, that is worse than Warren Moon getting in.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:56 PM    (permalink
Burns336
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Literally, I actually forgot Aikman was already voted in the HOF. That's incredibly disappointing yet also extremely hilarious.

That is worse than Art Monk getting in. Hell, that is worse than Warren Moon getting in.
That's fine dude... I'm just saying -- He's already in.

I wouldn't expect anyone to remember the players that aren't on their teams anyway, but if you're going to call me an embarrassment, make sure that I am first haha.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how I forgot that, it's actually kind of sad. And it's not like it's the greatest injustice in the world, because for a period of time Aikman was great, but obviously I wouldn't have voted for him myself.

Then again I would vote for Edgerrin James, so I'm probably just as guilty as you, Burns. (not first ballot of course)
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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With 90 wins in the 1990s, Aikman became the winningest starting quarterback of any decade in NFL history. Unfortunately, during his final two seasons, injuries began to take a toll on the Dallas quarterback and the team's winning ways. Finally, after the 2000 season, the Cowboys' six-time Pro Bowl selection announced his retirement from football.
Until now, anyway. Peyton Manning currently has 101 wins in the 00s with a year left to build upon that total.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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Isn't Brady also primed to break that record?
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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NJX, are you honestly going to tell me that when a player performs well in HUGE games, that we should view it the same way as if that player blew a team out in week 1?

Or how about the other way around? Are you going to tell me if a player is a regular season superstar, but can't pull it together in the playoffs -- we shouldn't take the atmosphere or type of games into account?

You don't believe that. You're just arguing.
njx does like to argue, but he is right nonetheless.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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read and understood, but thanks. but don't let your homerism get in the way of an honest assessment.
That's the greatest comeback. You can never knock it. LOL.

Of course he's gotta be a homer because he believes Troy Aikman was worthy to be a HOFer. What a crazy homeristic thought.
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Old 04-21-2009, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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Isn't Brady also primed to break that record?
Brady needs 3 wins next year. Barring a 15-16 win Patriot season combined with a 0-1 win Colt season, Manning will leave the decade with that record.
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If luck is where preparation meets opportunity, then clutch is where failure meets luck.

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