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Old 04-21-2009, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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EXACTLY my point! Do I really believe that Troy Aikman is a better quarterback than Peyton Manning? Not necessarily, no. All I'm trying to do is point out that you can find stats to back up any argument. That's why the winning stat and Superbowls are the most important ones. That's the point of playing the game after all, and why they hold so much weight in Hall of Fame voting.
Yes, that's true, but it works both ways. The W/L can change just as much as the stats. In the end, its all hypothetical which is why this discussion we're all having is so pointless at the end of the day.

All it really comes down to is one simple personal opinion: do you think SB rings are the most important "stat" for QBs? And sadly for us, none of us will probably change each others' minds.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:00 PM    (permalink
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If SB rings hardly matter, then why say Aikman got in because of his rings?
Because my opinion is not the opinion of everyone else, as evidenced by this discussion.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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But maybe the dynamic of the Cowboys doesn't work with Peyton, etcetera. It's always good for debates, but you never really know.
I think they might work, but who knows. Peyton certainly is a better passer than Aikman, and he is certainly productive as hell. Aikman could have run a pass heavy offense and put up big numbers too, but not in Peyton's league I think. Here's the big deal though. Would Peyton have choked when the Cowboys needed him? I don't put the blame solely on Peyton's shoulders for the big losses the Colts had, but he did have some bad games. With the teams the Cowboys faced Aikman had to make plays at some point in time that Peyton might have choked at.

It's a fun discussion though, because I think the world of Peyton. He's got all the talent in the world, and he is the best QB in the league to me. He's a rare QB that actually makes things happen. Most QBs get credit for not screwing up while their defense and running game picks up the slack. I don't see that with Peyton. I see the offense work through him, and because of him. It would've been a treat to see him against the 90s teams.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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What? How am I contradicting myself at all. I'm showing how little SB rings matter. Even if Dilfer won another one, no one would be recommending him for the HOF, yet when people like Aikman get brought up, the whole "3 SB RINGS 3 SB RINGS" gets repeated over and over, as if it's why he deserves it so much. And if Dilfer did get nomination, then it shows the stupidity of putting all the weight on winning SBs for QBs.



One could just as easily argue that Aikman rode the coattails of the HOFers around him. Being a general of a team doesn't mean anything. Gary Brackett is the general of the Colts defense, but that doesn't mean he's a higher caliber player than Bob Sanders of Dwight Freeney.
Do you take the time to read other post in this thread?
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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Which is stupid, IMO. But sadly probably true.
Seriously? What is so stupid about that? No QB ever to play the game has accomplished as much as Ben has. He may have started off as a Bus Driver QB, but he has turned into much more than that. If he was simply a guy behind the wheel he would've been exposed by now.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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He probably didnt watch the superbowl either.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? What is so stupid about that? No QB ever to play the game has accomplished as much as Ben has. He may have started off as a Bus Driver QB, but he has turned into much more than that. If he was simply a guy behind the wheel he would've been exposed by now.
Their first SB win was about as big of an exposition as you can get. Although he did perform very well in this last one, props to him. Heck, I even like the guy.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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If SB rings hardly matter, then why say Aikman got in because of his rings?
That's not what he is saying...

He means they SHOULDN'T matter as much as they do. He just isn't saying it very eloquently.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:18 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? What is so stupid about that? No QB ever to play the game has accomplished as much as Ben has. He may have started off as a Bus Driver QB, but he has turned into much more than that. If he was simply a guy behind the wheel he would've been exposed by now.
Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Aikman are incredibly similar. Both are great QBs and Aikman deserves the HOF(Big Ben will if he keeps up what he is doing.) Aikman was a top 5 QB his entire career, just like big Ben is now.

1. Elway
2. Favre
3. Young
4. Kelley
5. Aikman

and now

1. Peyton
2. Brady
3. Brees(arguably)
4. Warner(arguably)
5. Big Ben

They are both very good QBs, very, very good. But their rings are enough to take the very good into the HOF. That's how it should be too. If you had a long career as one of the best QBs in the league and you win a few rings, you should get in.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Ben Roethlisberger and Troy Aikman are incredibly similar. Both are great QBs and Aikman deserves the HOF(Big Ben will if he keeps up what he is doing.) Aikman was a top 5 QB his entire career, just like big Ben is now.

1. Elway
2. Favre
3. Young
4. Kelley
5. Aikman

and now

1. Peyton
2. Brady
3. Brees(arguably)
4. Warner(arguably)
5. Big Ben

They are both very good QBs, very, very good. But their rings are enough to take the very good into the HOF. That's how it should be too. If you had a long career as one of the best QBs in the league and you win a few rings, you should get in.
We basically agree on everything except you value SB wins more than me.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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We basically agree on everything except you value SB wins more than me.

The best way to think if someone was a hall of famer, could you give the history of the NFL without mentioning them? I don't think you can tell a history of the NFL in the 90s without mentioning Aikman, He was the QB of a dominant team. He is important to NFL history
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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Seriously? What is so stupid about that? No QB ever to play the game has accomplished as much as Ben has. He may have started off as a Bus Driver QB, but he has turned into much more than that. If he was simply a guy behind the wheel he would've been exposed by now.
Not to mention he has the most 4th quarter comebacks out of any active QB.... Talk about clutch.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:23 PM    (permalink
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The best way to think if someone was a hall of famer, could you give the history of the NFL without mentioning them? I don't think you can tell a history of the NFL in the 90s without mentioning Aikman, He was the QB of a dominant team. He is important to NFL history
Touche, I'll give you that.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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That's not what he is saying...

He means they SHOULDN'T matter as much as they do. He just isn't saying it very eloquently.
But I don't think they do matter as much as he thinks it does matter. That's why there are a lot of QBs with a SB win who are not in the HOF.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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But I don't think they do matter as much as he thinks it does matter. That's why there are a lot of QBs with a SB win who are not in the HOF.
If Aikman didn't win 3 super bowls, would he be in? I think that is unequivocally no. One Super Bowl doesn't matter, but multiple Super Bowls matter a lot.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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If Aikman didn't win 3 super bowls, would he be in? I think that is unequivocally no. One Super Bowl doesn't matter, but multiple Super Bowls matter a lot.
Bingo. Like I said in one of the first posts in this thread, once you put an 's' at the end of 'ring,' the discussion pretty much ends. Your team was a dynasty and your players were better than everybody else's at that time.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:13 PM    (permalink
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Bingo. Like I said in one of the first posts in this thread, once you put an 's' at the end of 'ring,' the discussion pretty much ends. Your team was a dynasty and your players were better than everybody else's at that time.
I disagree with the last half of your last sentence. Aikman wasn't better than Elway, Kelly, Young, or Favre. But he definitely deserves the HOF.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:30 PM    (permalink
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If Aikman didn't win 3 super bowls, would he be in? I think that is unequivocally no. One Super Bowl doesn't matter, but multiple Super Bowls matter a lot.
Ha... That's a completely hypothetical assumption. If he had lost those 3 SBs I still think he would've been a HOF QB. Who's to say for a fact that he wouldn't?


Let's talk about facts. Aikman did win 3. Aikman is worthy of his HOF induction. There's no "if" in this argument.
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Old 04-21-2009, 10:42 PM    (permalink
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Ha... That's a completely hypothetical assumption. If he had lost those 3 SBs I still think he would've been a HOF QB. Who's to say for a fact that he wouldn't?


Let's talk about facts. Aikman did win 3. Aikman is worthy of his HOF induction. There's no "if" in this argument.
Have you not read the rest of my posts? I am arguing for Aikman to make it. Stoner just said the Cowboys players were better than everyone else. Without the rings, I just don't see Aikman making the HOF. But the rings give it to him, without a doubt.

I said they weren't and the rings don't make them so. Aikman definitely deserves the HOF, although I don't think he should have got first ballot.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:47 AM    (permalink
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I think no way Aikman gets into the HoF if the Cowboys don't win those Super Bowls. His stats are rather average and don't distance himself from other QB's in the league at the time.

Like it is stated earlier, too much emphasis is on how well a player does in the postseason and how many rings he gets.

And for you guys supporting Aikman, I'll ask this again, why not Terrell Davis? He was exceptional in the postseason and had his career ended early and had amazing stats for how little he played. Is he a HOFer? Why not?
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:00 AM    (permalink
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I think no way Aikman gets into the HoF if the Cowboys don't win those Super Bowls. His stats are rather average and don't distance himself from other QB's in the league at the time.

Like it is stated earlier, too much emphasis is on how well a player does in the postseason and how many rings he gets.

And for you guys supporting Aikman, I'll ask this again, why not Terrell Davis? He was exceptional in the postseason and had his career ended early and had amazing stats for how little he played. Is he a HOFer? Why not?
He just has the "system" argument working against him. I don't think TD was JAG -- I think he was one of the best to ever run for the Bronco's but people will always claim that the system inflated his stats or made it easier or blah blah...

It's really unfair. He did what he was supposed to do with what was given to him and he did it really well. He should get credit for that no matter what team or system he was in.

But what Aikman supporter said no to TD? You're just kinda throwing that out there...
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Old 04-22-2009, 03:45 AM    (permalink
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I think no way Aikman gets into the HoF if the Cowboys don't win those Super Bowls. His stats are rather average and don't distance himself from other QB's in the league at the time.

Like it is stated earlier, too much emphasis is on how well a player does in the postseason and how many rings he gets.

And for you guys supporting Aikman, I'll ask this again, why not Terrell Davis? He was exceptional in the postseason and had his career ended early and had amazing stats for how little he played. Is he a HOFer? Why not?
I don't know Terrell Davis' career stats, but speaking of Aikman alone.... I know his success spanned over many consistent years. When I think of TD, I think of some flash in the pan.
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Old 04-22-2009, 04:14 AM    (permalink
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I question the legitimacy of even just looking at statistical production and playoff wins in regards to judging HOF-worthiness. Based on the group of players who are in the Hall, that's obviously not what the voters are purely going by.

The Hall of Fame is just that. It's a grouping of players who have had significant impact on the landscape of the NFL. Stats play a hand in that, as do wins, as do Superbowl victories. But so do a lot of other things, to be honest. To try and evaluate these guys in some sort of vacuum is futile.

As a pure approximation of Aikman as a quarterback and nothing more, I think he's more than a bit overrated. But does he belong in the Hall? Absolutely.
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:59 AM    (permalink
Kurve
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The fact is he is in the hall of fame so people who make the vote thought that he was HOF worthy out side of that what others think is pretty irrelevant at this point dont you think...he already is in.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:05 PM    (permalink
Nalej
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurve View Post
The fact is he is in the hall of fame so people who make the vote thought that he was HOF worthy out side of that what others think is pretty irrelevant at this point dont you think...he already is in.
Obviously not if I made the thread.
I already stated that I acknowledge that he's a HOF
and that the point of the thread was for mere discussion.
I just wanted to know what others on the board thought.
There's a lot of good arguements going both ways.
So please- if you're not going to contribute to the topic
then don't bother entering or replying to the thread.

Thank you.
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